How much do pictures like this effect you?

[sharrukin]

War probably is a human thing. But would the people still do it without anyone at all to follow into war? Some, certaintly, but as many?

If they didn't have someone to follow they would find someone! Pacifists don't get elected. Let me ask you this. Could Adolf Hitler have become the leader of any nation but Germany? Leaders have an effect but the conditions have to exist for them to take advantage of it.

And about the effects on the soldiers, I have been reading some pretty disturbing articales about the effects of war lately. I've always wondered why people farther back (I know WW1 and 2 had Post Tramatic Stress victims), but why not say the Medieval knights or Parthian cataphracts? Were they just used to it, since most saw far more warfare than any modern soldier, or was it never recongnized? Or both? And what about the less trained fighters who weren't raised from birth to be warriors? Or was it because back then, warfare wasn't nearly as horrid? Or was it, just different?

I hate when I start thinking about weird things like this.

Thats a good question!
I think war was worse in some ways in ancient times. Imagine 50 guys with axes, machetes, and bats going at each other. It would have been pretty gruesome IMO.

AFAIK, the first descriptions of the syndrome come from the Napoleonic Wars. This may be because the age of total war and mass conscription placed a large number of people who are not 'Warriors' in the line of battle. Previously the armies would have largely been made up of a smaller percentage of the general population. The culture and the glorification of war was also much more ponounced in earlier civilizations and this may have helped.

[JimBob]

War is natural, of course. We have a natural disposition towards violence, why? We're animals, early in our history you fought or you died, but now the world has changed and peace is possible, should we not strive for it? Besides without leaders to fan the flames would there be as much war? Remember it was Hitler's drive that took Germany to war, the people were willing and capable but with a diffrent leader that willingness would have been directed elsewhere. Without the strong man Ghengis the Mongol horde would not have had the power or will to sweep across the world, the same goes for Alexander. If there had been no Napoleon there would have been no le Grande Armee, and so on.

[PanzerJaeger]

I beg to differ. Having been to war and seen firsthand its tragedy, I can assure you that I am not affected by that picture simply because I am too sheltered or ignorant to "even be allowed to hold an opinion on war." Nor am I only affected by it because I am weak, as you postulated.

Which war did you fight in Goof?

[Ironside]

Probably! At least at first they would. Small kids aren't made of sugar and spice, and everything nice.

You see one fundamental difference here right? As Gawain pointed out,

In war you cheer because your alive and the enemy is dead. The rush of adrenalin and as they say the thrill of battle take over. Again when the fightings done and you go see what actually happened and that realpeople are dead there is no joy.

but your "war" isn't about survival. By own experience things die out when someone gets hurt while in a real war it continues, because it has to. Fascination of violence does exist, but the concept of war in much more advanced than that.
It's not the reptilian parts of the brain that makes war, but the more advanced parts. It can easily be seen at the battlefield were the actual fighting is basic instinct of survival, but the "suecides" and things of extreme heroic/idiotic charactar is breaking the most fundamental principle. Suvival (well unless it was to save your kids).
The spontanic ceasefires that occured during the winter 1914 were French and German soldiers were celebrating christmas together, is also something interesting when it comes to war and the look on it.

And about the picture, only looking on it makes little difference. But when actually thinking about it makes me sad, but as I prefer not to feel it I shield myself from it. It's not close to me, and I prefere that it isn't, because the worlds sorrow is too much for me.

[Idaho]

How true is everything you just wrote - especially the last part. Killing another human being in wartime - even from the distance that I was involved with - leaves you with memories that are sometimes very hard to face.

Then there are the memories of policing the battlefield.

Sometimes war is necessary - and Yes I still believe the war in Iraq was necessary - but one should be very careful on not having any empthay toward the innocent victims of war - and sometimes even your enemy. Because to lose your empthay toward them - means you are losing your humanity.

Excellent post.

From the research we have looked at before on these boards it does seem that normal human behaviour in war is to scare the opponents. The kind of deep training needed to make soldiers kill efficiently seems to have long term pyschological effects.

More Falklands war veterans have committed suicide since than died in the conflict itself.

Doubtless Panzer would, from behind his keyboard, call them weak.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

but your "war" isn't about survival

Every soldiers individual war is about survival and little else. Were talking reality here.

[Goofball]

I beg to differ. Having been to war and seen firsthand its tragedy, I can assure you that I am not affected by that picture simply because I am too sheltered or ignorant to "even be allowed to hold an opinion on war." Nor am I only affected by it because I am weak, as you postulated.

Which war did you fight in Goof?

A very important distinction: I said that I had "been to war," not that I had fought in one. I was a member of UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia in 1992. The above distinction is very important. You see (as is almost always the case with UN Peacekeeping missions), the people we were supposed to be "policing" were allowed to kill us, but we weren't allowed to kill them. Quite frustrating, actually.

[PanzerJaeger]

A very important distinction: I said that I had "been to war," not that I had fought in one. I was a member of UNPROFOR in the former Yugoslavia in 1992. The above distinction is very important. You see (as is almost always the case with UN Peacekeeping missions), the people we were supposed to be "policing" were allowed to kill us, but we weren't allowed to kill them. Quite frustrating, actually.

Ahh a very confusing and dangerous situation, from what Ive seen.

Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak.

[Ironside]

Every soldiers individual war is about survival and little else. Were talking reality here.

His "war" at the schoolyard????

The first war I was involved in was in grade three, at age 9. The snowplows had made a rather large hill of snow and the high school kids decided the younger kids couldn't play on it. There were about twenty of them, 14 to 16 years old. About a hundred kids from the little school got together and swarmed them. We took the hill!

You call this a real war?

Why do you think I put the "" there?

But yes in an actual war during the current situation is the invidual's war about survival. In the past have war been about pride and honour for some induviduals though.

[sharrukin]

His "war" at the schoolyard????

You call this a real war?

Nobody is calling it a real war!
That was never the point!

[Idaho]

Ahh a very confusing and dangerous situation, from what Ive seen.

Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak.

Yeah but you are all big macho talk about them.

[Goofball]

Ahh a very confusing and dangerous situation, from what Ive seen.

Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak.

Thanks PJ.

[bmolsson]

Well Ive never been close to a war so I bow to your experience and apologize for implying you were weak.

But you have played Total War on hard haven't you ??

[Ironside]

Nobody is calling it a real war!
That was never the point!

What was the point then? Proof that war is natural?

[bmolsson]

What was the point then?

He took a hill when he was 9 and he want us all to know that ??

[Don Corleone]

Sure, it's upsetting. I'm sure that the Vikings had children who cried when their parents die. Does that make the English defenders in NorthUmbria bastards for killing them? What about those poor German kids who were deprived of their parents in the Luftwaffe that your RAF shot down?

Yes, those pictures upset me. But so do these...

The poor Taliban that those evil Americans uprooted.

America getting what it deserves.

The Palestinians, and the fruits of their 'noble struggle'.

[Don Corleone]

Oh, and here's one from Iraq that we're not supposed to talk about.... careful, this will probably offend those of you with pre-conceived notions about America's role in Iraq....

[Idaho]

You are right Don! I've had the veil lifted from my eyes. All those A-rabs are just evil violent scum waiting for the ray of hope that is the US to come and cuddle their children.

Perhaps if I had never seen a photo before - or lived in a cave all my life - I might find your photo montage more impactful.

[Don Corleone]

You are right Don! I've had the veil lifted from my eyes. All those A-rabs are just evil violent scum waiting for the ray of hope that is the US to come and cuddle their children.

Perhaps if I had never seen a photo before - or lived in a cave all my life - I might find your photo montage more impactful.

I'm sorry Idaho. I didn't realize using inflammatory photographs that represent isolated events, not the larger truth, was your exclusive domain. Sorry to have stepped on your toes.

[PanzerJaeger]

^Check and mate!

[Idaho]

I'm sorry Idaho. I didn't realize using inflammatory photographs that represent isolated events, not the larger truth, was your exclusive domain. Sorry to have stepped on your toes.

Well that's where you fundamentally misunderstand the point of the thread unlike most people.

[sharrukin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharrukin
Nobody is calling it a real war!
That was never the point!

What was the point then? Proof that war is natural?

No, actually it was a cry for help! I am suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) because of a snowball fight, or....yeah, maybe that WAS the point! [the preceding sentence was "sarcasm"] Aggression is natural, even in children, and war is an organized form of that.

[Ironside]

No, actually it was a cry for help! I am suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) because of a snowball fight, or....yeah, maybe that WAS the point! [the preceding sentence was "sarcasm"] Aggression is natural, even in children, and war is an organized form of that.

Good, then I already mentioned my view on the issue.