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Thread: Byzantium

  1. #91

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Sorry Moah, the Naphtha was invented by the Byzantines.

    That's why it was called "Greek Fire" They had it for a couple of hundred years before there were any army's of Allah
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  2. #92

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Alright it seems like everyone here follows what the game recommends in its little one sentence summary of each faction, which I think is retarded. I personally hate the Byzantine (east roman for you nerds haha) cavalry archers; it doesn't seem like they pack the punch of Hungarian or Polish Nobles. Therefore, in my last Byzantine campaign, I made very western european type armies with large infantry formations, and WOW do byzantine troops rule. It's weird, b/c everyone on here is all about cavalry archers for the Byz, yet I had multiple field armies of byzantine lancers (dismounted and mounted), latinkons, byz infantry, varangian guard, byz spearmen (upgraded of course) and I was wading through oceans of Hungarian, German, and Polish blood. As a matter of fact, I made it all the way up to Arhus, but got bored and did something productive outside lol. Idk, that just goes to show that Byz infantry is NASTY, and is capable of brutalizing any faction as long as you play it right.
    Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

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  3. #93
    Slaying Pagans near you! Member TeutonicKnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Puppetmaster, that's good to hear. One reason I haven't tried the Byz in 2 is because everyone says they are such the Horse Archer faction now. I'm far more of an infantry guy. Horses are just so I know who my general is. :P

    If the Byz can make a go of it as an infantry nation, I'll have to give them a go next run.

    The other reason I haven't given them a go is they are far too close to where the Mongols and Timurids live. Those people give me nightmares. Though I don't know how they might be changed now that 1.2 is in...

  4. #94

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by TeutonicKnight
    Puppetmaster, that's good to hear. One reason I haven't tried the Byz in 2 is because everyone says they are such the Horse Archer faction now. I'm far more of an infantry guy. Horses are just so I know who my general is. :P

    If the Byz can make a go of it as an infantry nation, I'll have to give them a go next run.

    The other reason I haven't given them a go is they are far too close to where the Mongols and Timurids live. Those people give me nightmares. Though I don't know how they might be changed now that 1.2 is in...


    haha yeah man i see your point in avoiding the timurids, i basically lost 10 full stack armies to them on H/H in my holy roman empire campaign, and yeah i'm kind of pissed seeing as how my competent forces of veteran gothic and imperial knights were decimated before my eyes. elephants with cannons on their backs? can we be remotely realistic here? haha
    Men judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, for everyone can see and few can feel. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

    -Niccolo Machievelli

  5. #95

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Byzantium Troops – By the numbers in 1.2

    Spear Units
    The Byzantines have only three spear units. It is perhaps their biggest weakness in their force pool. They could really use a pike or halberd unit or an actual armored Spearman. All of these units have exactly the same stats. The only difference is the number of times they can receive armor upgrades or form special formations. The only saving grace common to Byzantine spear units is that are cheap to build and cheap to maintain

    Town Militia
    These are the first unit a city can build. They do nothing well except die and keep public order but given the limited options the Byzantines have for this type of troop you are probably going to have to use them on a regular basis so get an armor up grade if possible. Their one good point is that they are miles better than peasants and work much better as a garrison. They can receive one armor upgrade. They are free to maintain in a city. They are built in a city

    Spear Militia
    These along with Archer Militia will will probably be the most common unit in Byzantine armies. They are weaker than comparable Italian troops in almost every way. They have only three strong points. 1. They are free to maintain in a garrison 2. They have an outstanding defense bonus against cavalry. The come in groups of 75 rather than 60 which means that they are 25% better than the town militia through sheer numbers. It is important to get these troops an armor upgrade. Built in a city

    Byzantine Spearmen
    Identical to Militia Spearmen in all respects EXCEPT for being able to form a schiltrom or defensive circle, they have an additional armor upgrade, do NOT receive the free upkeep in a city and cost more in upkeep. I try to not use these the defensive ring is useless if they are protecting archers. For most of the things you need a spearman for the Spear Militia perform as well and cost less. There is one exception. If you are using the Spearmen as assault infantry. Have the first unit of Byzantine spearmen engage an enemy and form the defensive ring so they can't be flanked. Then have another unit of Byzantine Spearmen charge into the enemy. It waste a lot of men but it works. They come in groups of 75. Built in a castle

    Missile Units
    The Byzantine do not have access to a crossbow unit in their force pool. But two of their elite archer units are rather fearsome

    Peasant Archers
    Identical to other peasant archers. They do require upkeep when used as garrisons

    Archer Militia
    These are basic unarmored archers. They are fairly easy to reach. They do not pay upkeep when garrisoning. They can receive one armor upgrade. The have a good skill rating and are as good or better than most of the archers they will face. These are a very useful archer unit because you can build bunches of them and keep them for free in a city, castle or fort and them march them out when needed. They have much better armor than the peasant archer unit. (3 vs. 1) They come in groups of 60. They are built in a city

    Trebizond Archers
    These are a good upgrade from the Archer Militia in some ways but not in others. They have a longer range, they have better moral, better armor and a better secondary weapon and fighting ability. They are probably better than most of the non-crossbow units they might face. Once they run out of arrows they can make good units to chase down routing units and are able defend themselves against infantry that break through your spear wall which is good since the Byzantine spears are rather weak. They must pay up keep so only build them for an Army you are planing to use. They are also easy to reach. They come groups of 60 and are built in castles

    ***** Because they have a higher moral, longer range and better armor and attack Trebizond archers can murder most of the cheaper Horse Archer units********

    Guard Archers
    These have the longer range, they are better armored than most infantry They can fight almost as well or better than many infantry units and have a good moral. They are expensive cost a lot to maintain but are fairly easy to reach for a unit of this quality. Nasty unit. In some ways they are best unit in the Byzantine force pool because they are so versatile. They can often times sweep the field; especially if they are trying to reduce the numbers of poorly armored cavalry or infantry.

    Byzantine Infantry Units
    The Byzantine infantry units are generally capable if not exceptional. However, while more limited in types than other factions all the Byzantine infantry units generally have these strong points in common. 1. They are fairly well armored 2. They have low maintenance cost when compared to similar units in other armies. 3. They are fairly easy to reach 4. None of them are eligible for free upkeep if they are a garrison.

    Peasants
    Just like everybody else's peasants. They can be used to garrison. You must pay upkeep and they die like flies even from behind walls. Avoid them if you can and use the Town Militia instead. They come groups of 60 and are built at a castle.

    Byzantine Infantry
    Compared to Dismounted Men at Arms or Broken Lances these are not quite as good. However, they cost 100 gold per turn less in upkeep. These can be reached at the beginning of the game by upgrading the Drill Square in Constantinople twice. They can receive two armor upgrades. They are built in a city.

    Dismounted Byzantine Lancers
    Exactly the same stats as Byzantine Infantry except they can receive 4 armor upgrades and they cost a bit more to maintain. That is significant but they are also effectively much more difficult to reach because you have to upgrade the castle at Corinth at least once plus upgrading the barracks three times to be able to reach them. Since the Cavalry and archer units are also built at a castle you're probably going to have more important upgrades at your castle settlements. I find that I tend to get these from castles I've captured. The four upgrades is important if you can get it because that makes them almost as good as the Latinkon's with a considerably lower maintenance cost. There are 60 in a group and they are built at castles

    Dismounted Latinkon
    These seem to be actually easier to reach than the Varangian guard units in practice. But that may not be the actual case. They have an excellent attack, are very well armored an above average moral and can receive two armor upgrades. These can slice and dice their way through most spear units with ease. If you can get them to attack from a flank they route almost anything. They come in groups of 60 and are built at castles

    Varangian Guard
    A massive armor piercing attack, fairly good armor, through the roof moral and cheaper to build and maintain than almost any other comparable units. Their only weakness is their lack of shields while fighting which lowers their armor class a bit. However, they'll kill most other units before this becomes a problem. This unit along with the Guard Archers almost single handedly makes up for all the other holes in the Byzantine force pool. They are difficult to reach, Constantinople has to have the 10,000 gold wall built and then you can built the drill square needed. However, it is worth the effort to reach these. They come groups of 60 and are built in a CITY

    Byzantine Cavalry
    Byzantine Cavalry is a difficult to use because most of it is missile cavalry. The AI is better at using it than in the pre-1.2 game but still not very competent. However, if you fight your own battles the Skythikon and Vardariotai can fearsome units. The lower level Byzantine cavalry units all have poor moral which

    Greek Militia Cavalry
    This is the only cavalry that be built in a city but you must have a merchant's guild. They have respectable stats except for a low moral which makes them unreliable. The pay no upkeep in a garrison.

    Skythikon and Cuman Horse Archers
    The basic unarmored horse archer. The only difference is that the Cuman's cost a little more in upkeep and can only be purchased as mercenaries but the Skythikon are available from any castle. Their saving grace is that because they are so easily available they are often the first archer unit that the Byzantines have available. One of the ways I've used this unit is to set them up in FRONT of a Town Militia unit making sure that both out of range of enemy archers. I then shoot arrows at an opposing unit and get them to charge the Skythikon who then beat a hasty retreat behind the militia. who are better able to absorb the charge of the now (hopefully) depleted attackers. The Skythikon then setup as archers behind the militia and continue shooting arrows. It's not a great strategy but it's the best I can do with these troops. Both Skythikon can Cumans have poor moral

    Byzantine Cavalry
    Almost a hybrid unit in that they are neither a true horse archer or a true sword wielding light cavalry. They also suffer from abysmal moral. They do have good armor stats They come in groups of 40 and are available in the basic castle

    Byzantine Lancers
    This is the first true lance equipped shock cavalry that you can reach. They are fairly easy to reach have adequate moral and are somewhat comparable to “Mailed Knights.” They are also inexpensively maintained. The big thing about these guys is that they can receive four (4)!!!!!! worth of armor upgrades. If you can get them maxed out on the upgrades they go from being a mediocre unit to being a fairly decent one

    Alan Light Cavalry
    A mercenary unit, available exclusively to the Byzantines throughout the Near East but not the Balkins that is some what equivalent to the Lancers. They have an armor piercing secondary attack and a reasonable upkeep cost. They can have one armor upgrade and come in groups of 40

    Latinkon
    These are basically equivalent to Broken lances but are much cheaper to maintain and have better armor. A standard heavy cavalry unit. There are some better but these are certainly good enough. They are difficult to reach but their low upkeep makes them a very attractive option

    Kataphractoi
    Better armored than Latinkons with an Armor piercing secondary attack. They have two armor upgrades and a good moral. These do not appear to be quite as distinct a unit as they were in MTW but still a nice cavalry unit. I'm not sure they worth the effort to reach them however, because they don't appear to off that many advantages over the Latinkons

    Vardariotai
    The first heavy Cavalry the Byzantine faction has available. This is the cavalry equivalent of the Guard Archer or what the Byzantine Cavalry aspire to be. They have a good secondary attack, they are well armored, they are cheap to maintain and the cost a bunch to buy. If you can get them upgraded and some experience they can be very good unit if you figure out how to use missile cavalry

    Greek Body Guard
    equivalent to other factions body guards but they don't improve over the course of the game to a “Late Version” however, the standard version is still a good unit
    Last edited by Gray Beard; 05-17-2007 at 06:46.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  6. #96

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Puppet Master,

    I seldom use the horse archers. Indeed, the only reason I use any of the horse archers at all is because I find the Byzantine cavalry to be way to hard to reach.

    The Byzantine Infantry actually has some very good features that I talk about above. Namely the upkeep cost is sometimes as much a 1/2 similar units in factions list.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  7. #97
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Personally, I never use Byzantine Cavalry opting instead for the almighty Vardariotai(when available) or Scythikons. The reason is because Byz Cav lacks the "Fast Moving" attribute, which imho is the most important one for cavalry archers. Vardariotai of course are worth their weight in gold twice over.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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  8. #98
    Can't beat the Silence Member _Maximus_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Yes, their worst, the lack of speed. It broke my nerves when opposite horse archers kill a half of my army.

  9. #99
    Member Member Skott's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    The Varangian Guard units were pretty beastly with the sword mod fix in 1.1. How has the 1.2 treated them? They just as good, better, or worse?

  10. #100

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I think the Varangian guard are now the best unit in the game when you take their low upkeep cost into consideration. Also you don't lose them late.

    As an interesting note. Warren Treadgold in his book "Byzantium and its Army: 284 - 1081" ISBN 08047831632 seems to indicate that at least some of the Varangian Guard were heavy Cavalry.

    As he is one of the best know Byzantine scholars around it makes me wonder if there shouldn't be a Varangian cavalry unit.

    He also list an actual manifest or summary of the troops in a normal Byzantine army. You couldn't build that army using this game.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  11. #101
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Skott
    The Varangian Guard units were pretty beastly with the sword mod fix in 1.1. How has the 1.2 treated them? They just as good, better, or worse?
    I love these guys now... They are usually charged with the task of chopping enemy heavy horse into steaks, and they do a damn fine job.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  12. #102

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I started a byzintine campaign after I finished my HRE campaign to unlock the factions. I'm playing 1.2 official patch. My experiance is that archery is your best friend with them. I've had groups of 4-6 byz. cav. with maybe 1-2 vards mixed in kill enemy infantry like it was going out of style. I've had battles where I've killed 2000 and lost 150 or so, with pure HA armies.

    Also I've tested in custom battle a guard archer can beat DFK 1vs1. They can thin them out good enough where they can kill them with swords afterwards. Treb. archers murder enemy infantry and HA's. The thing that you have to get your head around after playing western factions is your starting infantry thats basicly is ONLY spear militia from cities and byz. spearmen from castles can't stand up to western troops such as the armoured spearmen of all types and dismounted knights. While byz. infantry are fairly good they don't come until later.

    Killing archers and xbows are fairly easy with all HA armies especially if you use the higher grade ones like byz. cav. or vards. All you have to do is lure out the infantry with a few then charge the archers with flanking units. All the while your HA will be raining death even while on the move! Early on Hungry is your worst foe because they have good HA aswell. What I end up doing is either send some byz. cav or vards to attack in melee and chase them down while exchanging missile fire. That way I can kill the infantry with the rest of my army with out that annoyance.


    Just to give you an Idea I have 4 vards I got from my first mission reward with 2 gold cheverons just after prince John then king died. You should see the carnage that 8 units of trez archers and HA can lay down to infantry armies. In one instance I widdled down a 800 or so man army down to ~100 men before they hit my byz. spear/sword line. That was with 8 trebs and 4 vards with a general.

    In my battles you really get the whole "fight in the shade" experinance!

  13. #103

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Whoever said that peace with hungary and Russia is possible in our lifetime,don't you believe it.In my game which I continued when the 1.2 patch game out we are enaged in a war of attrition in which large Ha armies of mine intercept their armies en-route to sieging my cities and destroy them,but I did take sofia,which is a citadel from them,so how maybe I'll get some respite.They where allied with the egyptians when they finally wore out my patience with port blockade 1.01 and I destroyed them but I thought they'd have made peace after the egyptians died,and since I've offered them peace for 5,000+ with no luck,so I may have to kill them off..

  14. #104
    Carnifex Maximus Member Rebellious Waffle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    I have a Crazy Idea. (Haven't tried it yet, but it popped into my head when I got a load of Timurid elephants.)

    Rampaging barbarians are not my idea of a good time. That and the porous borders are the only reasons why I don't find the Byzantines ideal for campaign purposes. Let someone else deal with smelly nomads from off the steppe, I want to shoot fish in a barrel!

    Supposing you invaded Spain.

    Take the whole Byzantine Empire, put it on a tractor-trailer and go island hopping. Sweep up Rhodes, Crete, Corsica, Sardinia and possibly Sicily on the way if you have a strange sense of humor. The Turks, Venetians and Hungarians will probably carve up your old provinces while you're away; wish them well. Your eye is on the prize, and the prize is Grenada.

    Think about it this way -- the blokes who are best suited to stop Byzantine horse archers are your neighbors at the start of the game: Russia, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Egypt. The blokes in Western Europe mostly won't get missile cavalry until the Late period, which means you've got the only horse archers within hundreds of miles. Western armies are terrible at ranged combat. Playing Byzantium in Spain means looking at your neighbors and thinking, "that guy would look great with a piece of wood sticking out of his forehead". The Iberian Peninsula is defended by the Andes, which lets you mop up the Spanish, Portugese and Moors in peace and quiet. Walk your way back East. What're they gonna do, excommunicate you?

  15. #105
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebellious Waffle
    I have a Crazy Idea. (Haven't tried it yet, but it popped into my head when I got a load of Timurid elephants.)

    Rampaging barbarians are not my idea of a good time. That and the porous borders are the only reasons why I don't find the Byzantines ideal for campaign purposes. Let someone else deal with smelly nomads from off the steppe, I want to shoot fish in a barrel!

    Supposing you invaded Spain.

    Take the whole Byzantine Empire, put it on a tractor-trailer and go island hopping. Sweep up Rhodes, Crete, Corsica, Sardinia and possibly Sicily on the way if you have a strange sense of humor. The Turks, Venetians and Hungarians will probably carve up your old provinces while you're away; wish them well. Your eye is on the prize, and the prize is Grenada.

    Think about it this way -- the blokes who are best suited to stop Byzantine horse archers are your neighbors at the start of the game: Russia, Poland, Hungary, Turkey, Egypt. The blokes in Western Europe mostly won't get missile cavalry until the Late period, which means you've got the only horse archers within hundreds of miles. Western armies are terrible at ranged combat. Playing Byzantium in Spain means looking at your neighbors and thinking, "that guy would look great with a piece of wood sticking out of his forehead". The Iberian Peninsula is defended by the Andes, which lets you mop up the Spanish, Portugese and Moors in peace and quiet. Walk your way back East. What're they gonna do, excommunicate you?
    Too much work imho. It's easier to just conquer the the lands surrounding your starting area. Besides, Constantinople is far too important to leave to the vultures. Before the arrival of gunpowder the Byzantines are unstoppable no matter who they are fighting against.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

  16. #106
    Carnifex Maximus Member Rebellious Waffle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    It seems like there's two things we can do along those lines.


    1) Snag Rhodes, Crete, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Tunis and Tarentum as a prelude to taking all the cities on the Northwestern coast of the Mediterranean Sea, then snag Spain and West Africa along the way. Walk your way East, until you press the enemy against the Italian peninsula if you've managed to sweep it up. Once you've got France and Normandy under your thumb you can send an invasion fleet across the Channel if you like, but it might be better to swarm in and snag the Holy Roman Empire's provinces. Make everyone else into the Russians' problem.

    2) Take Turkey and use it as a base for massive invasion of the Russian steppe. Once you've secured the old Russian border with Poland and Hungary, drive North from the Balkans and West from the steppe, shunting the enemy into Holy Roman Empire territory. The trick will be keeping the pressure up long enough to consolidate both assault forces for a massed attack on France, then plug up the Alps and Andes in preparation for throwing your army at the British Isles. If the Mongols and Timurids carve chunks out of your eastern holdings, you can afford to take the hit until you consolidate in the West and reconquer the places you lost along the way.

    Maybe it's just a pipe dream, but something tickles me about it because it's so incongruous.

  17. #107
    Carnifex Maximus Member Rebellious Waffle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    A second Crazy Idea came up, and it's working rather well:

    1. Snag all of Asia Minor from the Turks.
    2. Snag Hungary, Venice, Egypt, the Levant and Sicily's starting provinces. (Tricky)
    3. Donate all of Egypt, the Holy Land, Arabia (i.e. Bagdhad, the provinces just East of Antioch, Jerusalem and Aleppo) and possibly bits of Africa to the Papal states in exchange for Rome. Send an invasion fleet West along the African coast, conquering cities and donating them to the Papal States until you reach Tunis. Keep Tunis to yourself. The idea is to make the Papal States a military and economic powerhouse in the East, while getting onto the Pope's good side in a big way.
    4. Become the Pope's ally with full military access, and send him presents regularly.

    This may look like a completely goofy strategy, and it is. The idea has a few advantages:

    1. You get Rome without the threat of crusades being called against you, which is a biggie. That allows you to mop up the entire Italian peninsula and use it as a base to sweep in and conquer the Western Empire.
    2. You wipe out two of the three Jihad-calling factions and make it pretty much impossible for anyone to crusade against you, removing two of the most annoying threats to Byzantine power.
    3. The Pope is a good neighbor. Never attacks anybody. You can make his Empire as big as you want and no bigger -- it's like cultivating a giant rock garden. You still get the economic benefits of trade with the Levant, and there's plenty of room to expand in the West anyway.
    4. When the barbarian hordes come calling, guess whose doorstep they'll land on? The Pope has authority to call crusades on the Mongols and Timurids, which goes a ways towards neutering the barbarians and periodically strips your neighbors of soldiers at the same time!
    5. The Holy Land is a high-profile target that's hard to defend and it's not even part of your winning conditions. Rome, however, is. And it's much more convenient to have, because your opponents have to tear through Northern Italy to threaten it at all, and you'll have Italy wrapped up like a Christmas present from your invasions.
    6. It's just plain wacky. There's something to be said for careening through history like a bull in a china shop. aye?

  18. #108

    Default Re: Byzantium

    I'm playing this faction now. (I have always played Catholic or Moorsish factions)

    I followed some of Reb Waffle's advice except there is one problem.

    The Pope cannot trade Rome. It is his capital.

    At least I can't figure out how to trade it from him.

    What I've done is as follows:

    Allied with Hungary.
    Allied with Pope.
    Give them both money to keep them at least Amicable.

    I blitzed west to Zagred taking Sofia and Albania (Whatever it is, minor province) on the way.

    I also blitzed North and around the Black Sea stopping at Sarkel (Stalingrad?) I missed the castle north of Bucharest, Poland got it, but got Kiev. Poland then offered an alliance. I had to break it a few turns later when Hungary attacked Poland (they were boxed in so they went north :) )

    I also sent my prince south to take Rhodes and the castle in the way. Then sent him to whack the Turks. Surprisingly I killed them off after taking thier capital which was mostly empty. I then had to hurry and take most of Turkey and Antioch before Egypt got there. I wanted the Turks to be around to buffer the Mongols.

    Before I took Antioch the pope called a crusade agaisnt Antioch. (I'm not sure if Egypt owned it or not.) Poland came down and took it. Then they left to try and take (Jerusalem?) something south and Antioch rebeled. So I took Antioch. I took Edessa and gave a couple of provices to the Pope.

    It is now turn 60. I have my defensive line drawn north to south at Trezbond, Ceasarea, and Antioch. The Ventians would NOT leave me alone by attacking Rhodes with 3-4 armies. So I took Ragusa and Iraklion from them leaving Venice with Venice only. Venice was actually kind of easy as I had hordes of Cav Archers skirmishing and firing. Venice wasn't equiped to handle Cav Archers.

    My only borders I need to worry about is East from the Mongols and North from Hungary. (Egypt and the Pope are fighting and the Pope is holding them off nicely. :)
    I'm now allied with Hungary, Egypt and the Pope. The relations with the Pope are Outstanding (Just as Reb Waffle hinted at) which is where I want them.

    Much of Eastern Turkey and Iraq are in Rebel hands. I'm hoping the Mongols take one of those and then break up a bit so I can take thier initial uber-stacks one at a time.

    Hungary has been fantastic as a neighbor. They went after Poland and HRE. HRE is about toast and Poland and Hungary are in a stalemate. The Catholics are all fighting amongst themselves (Milan vs Venice and Sicily, France vs Portugal and Spain, England vs Denmark and Scotland, Hungary vs HRE and Poland) Haven't heard boo out of the Moors or Russia except a trade deal with Russia. The Pope now has at least 3 provinces in the Holy Land area. Egypt is pinned in at Acre and Jerusalem (They got a small stack headed for Bagdad/Mosul)

    Should be interesting. I'm really quite inexperienced fighing Mongrels so I hope I do ok.

  19. #109
    Carnifex Maximus Member Rebellious Waffle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    The trick to getting him to trade Rome is to give him a few Middle Eastern provinces first -- the computer uses some manner of unrest-minimization algorithm to find out where its capitol should be, and if you give the Pope a lot of Levantine provinces he'll move his capitol over there. Once that's done, you need to rack up Egyptian provinces to complete the trade for Rome.

    Another campaign model for Byzantium I'm using is to pick up stakes and move the whole bidness to Spain. By turn 35 I've got the whole Iberian peninsula, North Africa, and the two French provinces East of the Pyrenees, with designs on interior France and Rennes. Constantinople, Nicaea, Nicosia, Corinth and Thessalonica are now the Pope's problem, and I hope he has fun with the Turks.

  20. #110

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that you need 45 provinces with Rome AND Jerusalem to win. So don't forget about Jerusalem. Personally in all other campaigns I usually leave it till the end because of all the problems associated with that restless province.

    I actually had to restart my campaign :P The power went out and my save got corrupted. I was only 63 turns into it so all is not lost. I can do better now that I have learned a bit from mistakes.

  21. #111
    Carnifex Maximus Member Rebellious Waffle's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    You're right, I looked it up and owning just Rome is the prerequisite to victory in the Holy Roman Empire campaign. Still, even if you donate Jerusalem it's a hop, skip and a jump from the seashore and can be taken quickly by a spy/army combo if need be.

  22. #112

    Default Re: Byzantium

    That is usually what I do with all the Catholics

  23. #113

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Hey all, I just played Byzantium last night and they're quite a difficult but managable faction. I missed the Romans so much that I wanted to see what the Byzantines were all about and yeah I agree there Byzantine cavalry and Zarototai cavalry are damned good. Its good to see that the Romans didn't get rid of everything in the few hundred years that have passed... shame about the western roman empire though...

    Well that said, I played them and I sent Prince John's army to take the rebel castle north of Thessalonica, more or less north, and fortified it with a decent sized army incase the Venetian's decided to argue about who gets it. I sent my general... whats his name... anyway the guy who was in Thessalonica to the town just west of it so I gave me a new source of income, and a place where troops can be trained to defend against Sicilian and Venetian incursions. On my Eastern front I had taken Rhodes, Smyra... spelling error, Trebezoid and Irakilion. Now I just advance what I have economically and millitary wise and I'm in the process of taking back what the Eastern Roman's had lost!

    Since I played Barbarian Invasion and now Medieval 2 I compared the territory's of the Eastern Roman Empire to the Byzantines and my god!! What a loss of ground!! Iraklion? How did the Venetian's get it? Rebellion probably? And africa... Egypt? For heavens sake they been conquered so many times why don't they just give up!
    Last edited by frogbeastegg; 07-05-2007 at 15:39. Reason: Removed a history based comment which provoked a lot of historical off-topic discussion
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  24. #114

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Stay on topic, please. All history discussion belongs in the monastery

    I'm going to trim away all posts and parts of posts in this topic which are not related to the game, since it appears allowing a little leeway does not aid the goals of this forum. This will apply to all other threads here too, as and when it can be managed.
    Frogbeastegg's Guide to Total War: Shogun II. Please note that the guide is not up-to-date for the latest patch.


  25. #115
    Beware! Relentless Looter! Member Flavius Merobaudes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Byzantium

    Thanks for cleaning up.

    I'm about to start a new campaign as Byzantium. I wanted to know: Is it possible to keep the European parts of your empire stable, conquering Sofia and Durazzo, then staying defensive - and meanwhile capturing Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt, to reinstall the former ERE? Or will I be overrun by Latin invaders? I know Venice and Hungary can become really nasty.

  26. #116

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Quote Originally Posted by Flavius Merobaudes
    Thanks for cleaning up.

    I'm about to start a new campaign as Byzantium. I wanted to know: Is it possible to keep the European parts of your empire stable, conquering Sofia and Durazzo, then staying defensive - and meanwhile capturing Anatolia, the Levant and Egypt, to reinstall the former ERE? Or will I be overrun by Latin invaders? I know Venice and Hungary can become really nasty.
    Well from my experience of playing as the Byzantines I also conquered Sofia and Durazzo and if you bolster them with mainly byzantinian spearmen and trebizond archers you can hold the Venetians, Milanese and the Sicilians at bay since they, with me, usually sent just mailed knights and italian militia(The Hungarians have never attacked me so I have no experience of fighting their army sorry) In both Sofia and Durazzo I had 6 units of spearmen and I think 3 units of archers.

    I've tried to take back the lands that the Eastern Roman Empire lost, it is difficult but possible you just have to stick in there, have patience and plenty of it! I took back the lands the Eastern Empire had up to Alexandria after that the Mongols came and started to rampage through my lands taking one settlement after another . So in effect I really only made a "net gain" of the Asia minor territories that Turkey had not much but acceptable
    What we do for our children dies with us and us alone, what we do for others and the world lives immortal

  27. #117

    Default Re: Byzantium

    Having played the Byzantines for quite a while now with the 1.2 patch (Including for hour and hours on a laptop while crossing the Pacific in a plane) I will stand by my initial walk through on page one or two of this thread. Though I have modified it a bit.

    The short version
    Marry Anna to the Hungarians
    Make a treaty with Venetians and wait for them to break it
    Go after the rapacious Turks from turn 1

    The object is to gain control of the south East corner of the map from Tunis to Zagreb. To do this you simply have to be wily enough to keep from being at war with more than two factions at once. Something that has changed with the patch is that it appears that there are now many more times when the AI will blockade a port or place a city under siege simply to gain favor with merchants or nobles. You can sometimes let them blockade your port or siege your city for two turns and find that they are more than happy forgive and forget. This is especially true if you can keep your reputation higher than despicable which is sometime a problem for take 'em and sack or exterminate 'em me
    Last edited by Gray Beard; 07-09-2007 at 05:30.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  28. #118

    Default Sources for Byzantine History

    Administrators-If this belongs somewhere else please feel free to move it just tell me where

    Someone asked me to place a set of links to works dealing with Byzantine history and military.

    Here are some that I have used or know about. Most of these or similar titles should be available in any university or larger public library. This is not meant to be an exhaustive list and if anyone has something they think should be added send me a private message, I'll add it.

    General Reference
    The Complete Idiot's Guide(R) to the Crusades


    Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire (I agree with the reviewer on Amazon.com that this is a somewhat mediocre source)

    Empires At War: A Chronological Encyclopedia From Sumer To The Fall Of Byzantium

    Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: An Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World Edition (Two volume set)

    The Encyclopedia of Ancient Civilizations of the Near East and Mediterrnaean

    Encyclopedia of the Roman World This does not look like the one I have

    Historical Atlas of the Crusades

    Biography
    The Alexiad Of particular interest since the author is the Byzantine princes you have control of at the beginning of M2TW

    Byzantine History
    A Concise History of Byzantium

    Byzantium and Its Army, 284-1081 A very useful book in many ways

    History of Byzantium: 306-1453 This is the only one on this list I haven't at least looked at.

    History of the Turks
    Turks: A Journey of a Thousand Years, 600-1600

    The Turks in World History

    Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300-1774


    DVD-Video
    Byzantium: The Lost Empire A stunning documentary from the Discovery Channel that explores the culture and art of the Byzantine Empire. My set is a 3 DVD set I don't know why this one is two DVD set?


    Dated and I think often wrong but soooooo Influential
    The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

    Controversial
    The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam : From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century


    Stranger than Fiction
    This guy claims to be the heir to the Byzantine throne
    Last edited by Gray Beard; 07-24-2007 at 07:23.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  29. #119

    Default Sources for Byzantine History

    Atreides, who seems to think I know a lot about the Byzantine Empire asked me to post a list of sources on Byzantium. I sent him a shorter version of this. Most of these I have at least looked at. I'll link what I can through Amazon,com and give you a full title and ISBN number for the others. I have purchased some of these for the library I direct for use in AP World History classes and most of them should be on shelf at any university or larger public library and they may be on the shelf at a school library if your school has a big AP focus

    This is not necessary an exhaustive list works by any stretch. Just ones I know about and have at time consulted. Others might want to add something to it. If so drop me a private message.

    Reference works
    Encyclopedia of the Byzantine Empire
    Empires

    At War: A Chronological Encyclopedia From Sumer To The Fall Of Byzantium

    The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Crusades
    Ancient Europe, 8000 B.C. to A.D. 1000: An Encyclopedia of the Barbarian World


    http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Roman-World-History/dp/0746061307/ref=sr_1_4/102-0700512-4318521?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185253656&sr=1-4"]Encyclopedia of the Roman Worldhttp://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-R...5253656&sr=1-4


    DVD-Video
    Byzantium : The Lost Empire

    Biography
    The Alexiad
    This work is particularly good for M2TW because it chronicles the life and time Emperor Alexis I who is the emperor you start the game with. Anna Comeus is the Byzantine princes you have at the beginning of the game

    Byzantine History
    Any book by Warren Treadgold is a good place to start. He can be rather dry but his books are generally short and filled with facts. I particularly like Byzantium and its Army and A Concise Historyof Byzantium

    http://www.amazon.com/Emperor-Justin...5253740&sr=1-5
    Byzantine Philosophy and Its Ancient Sources

    Related works
    The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (Not a personal favorite of mine)
    Turks:

    [/B] History of the Turks[/B]
    A Journey of a Thousand Years, 600-1600

    Armies of the Ottoman Turks, 1300-1774

    [/B]More controversial[/B]
    The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam : From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

  30. #120

    Default Sources for Byzantine History

    duplicate deleted
    Last edited by Gray Beard; 07-24-2007 at 06:39.
    Gray Beard
    Byzantium, Forever and Ever

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