The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

[dopp]

The M2TW pikeman is a confused and neglected individual. Despite the effectiveness of his historical counterpart, the M2TW pikeman clearly hates his job. Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. This opportunity is first contact with the enemy. Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves. Unfortunately, he has usually neglected to bring a shield along as well. Combined with his total lack of footwork, this shortens his life-expectancy in melee to considerably less than the average peasant.

Numerous pleas have been made on behalf of the poor pikeman's dilemma, but no help is forthcoming. Many prefer to ignore his existence, considering his inclusion in the game as "ahistorical" and preferring to concentrate on tweaking more characterful units such as axemen and longbows. Others justify his confusion as part of an RPS system where swords beat pikes. Faced with the superiority of swords against his unwieldly pike, they argue, it is not surprising that the pikeman feels insecure and adopts the sword himself. Yet others point out that pike formations invariably lose cohesion or get outflanked in the melee, perhaps overlooking the fact that pikemen often become swordsmen almost immediately after initial contact with any kind of enemy. Finally, some contend that pikemen are only meant to check charges to the front and little else, otherwise they would be too powerful. This is perhaps unfair to the poor pikeman, since a closer observation would reveal that even a charge against braced pikemen forming spear wall will kill as many pikemen on initial contact as chargers.

Stern and ruthless tyrant that I am, I have attempted to correct this confusion by confiscating all swords from my Swiss mercs. No pikeman is to carry anything even remotely resembling a sword, upon pain of prolonged and agonizing death. Despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the results are incontestable. Chained to their pikes, my men have no choice but to vent their frustration and shame by poking at the enemy, killing anything that approaches them from the front. Kept at bay by the constantly-stabbing pikes, the enemy has no choice but to try and outflank, as swordsmen working their way past the first few rows of pikes will only claim a few victims before being impaled by those deeper within the formation. Even outflanking is ineffective unless the pikemen are already engaged to the front as the entire formation just turns on the spot to poke in the appropriate direction.

This tweak just replaced the pikemen's secondary weapon entry in the export_descr_unit file with the line from other units that don't have secondary weapons (ironically, I copied and pasted it from the Swordsmen Militia entry). This tricks the pikemen into not using their swords, even though they have the mesh and animations for it.

I am fully convinced that taking this firm and uncompromising stand is the right course of action and encourage all commanders to at least consider doing the same. In conclusion, "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"

Disclaimer: I am not bashing CA. M2TW is a great game. This quickfix is for those few hardy "ahistorical" souls who feel that M2TW pikemen need some tweaking so they can enjoy using them ingame. I think there are a few such people out there (waves), if I'm wrong then sorry for wasting everyone's time.

Further Disclaimer: If you have mastered the art of pikemen deployment already and think that I just need to learn2playnoob, then good for you. If you have always hated pikemen and want them all dead, then ignore this fix as you would ignore them ingame. If you feel that pikemen are balanced or "historical" already then you can skip this fix too. Please do not assail me with your SCA pike experiences, I just wanted to see my pikemen actually poke something, someplace, sometime.

[Shahed]

BUUUUUUAAAAAAHAAHHAHAHHAAHHA !!!!

Man I almost choked on my (late) lunch reading that post.

Can you fix spears as well please... so that they can hold up to cavalry. Pikes are terrible right now, it's really funny (in a tragic way) to see them all formed up with pointy sticks and just charge straight into them and they die like flies.

Please post your fix in point form. I'd apply it.

[Bob the Insane]

Nice post... It is an interesting problem...

I have not played with pike enough yet to give a considered opinion but it is a neat solution...

[JeffBag]

When you take them off spear wall formation, do they switch to swords?

[Beefeater]

Lovely comic writing there dopp!

[AussieGiant]

Fantastic!!!!

[Kraxis]

Incidentally this is the direct opposite of the fix for the German Spearmen in RTW...

Anyway I have never really thought about this. But now I can't help but wonder how pikes do on walls... I remember how hard it was to push Flemmings off the walls in Antwerpen, with pikes it can only get worse.

[Zoltan]

Good post doop, but did it actually make the pikemen behave as they should! Show us some results! figures! rarrrr!

[Shahed]

I posted a video of an early M2:TW trailer, and the pikes in the that were awesome, killing a lot of cav in the charge. Can't find the link now.

It's a good question, do they actually hold up in spear wall or do they resort to fighting as independents ?

[Dave1984]

Nice idea.

Just put it to the test. Works very well indeed, It'll certainly be a fixture in my games from now on.

One thing I noticed- the pikes still seem to lose a little cohesion and some pop into their "duel" mode. They still do better out of it than they did with their swords, but it looks odd them trying to stab the bad guy when the pike is already halfway through him! ;)

[Daveybaby]

Intriguing... and good.

[Whacker]

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! "The average pikeman clearly hates life and himself."

dopp, can you post your edu entry for Scottish Noble Pikeman, post-fix? I'd like to try and give this a shot.

[Kobal2fr]

Interesting, though like kraxis the first thought that popped in my head was "how will they do on walls ?!".

Anyway, I fixed my file, and I'm sure I'll get time to play the damn game some instead of just modding it all the time

[Musashi]

Maybe next game CA can implement things properly, and have a few Zwei Handers in the pikemen formation whose job is to deal with anyone who breaks in...

[OMGLAZERS]

Post a fix, ASAP!

I didn't even realize Pikemen were so broken because I usually gave up on all the bugs and problems before I even got to turn 30 or 40 (thank god for Shaba Wangy's mods)

[BigTex]

Brilliant, hadent really thought of doing that. As Kraxis said, it's exactly opposite of the fix for germanic spearman.

Tryed it out and they actually with keep their spears out and use a push of pike. The only bad thing is they still have the problem when they get close to the enemy of having the entire formation present tail and kill them with their elbows. Has anyone else noticed this?

Post a fix, ASAP!

Simple enough fix, doesnt require you to really post the unit.txt. All you need to do is go in, highlight the statistic portion of a swordsmen secondary weapon atribute. Copy that, then go down to the pikemens sec atr highlight the stats and paste.

[Hashashiyyin]

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

[antisocialmunky]

Technically you could classify Phillip III's Macedonian Phalangites - and those of the post-Alexander Hellenic Kingdoms - as Pikemen.

If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.

[BigTex]

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

The romans used pikes in the early years. The reason they used swords is not because they were more effective, but they were far more influenced by the guals military techniques then the greeks and macedonians. The romans suffered horendous losses to pike formations. The fact that they won is not becuase they had the better tool, they won only because they had the better man power. Time and time again the romans were soundly and massively defeated by pike armies, but when the early romans lossed a battle that merely pissed them more off. They'd send 2 times the troops after a loss.

Possibly the 2 only reasons the romans managed to get through macedonia and greece is the massive depopulation of the region becuase of wars and emmigration to other Diodoche. They also nearly completely lost their cavalry wing of the army. A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.

Pikes are a good example of the Reniassance. With the rise of heavy cavalry again the pike was a good weapon to pear it with. Not to mention they also were good at protecting the musketeers. The pike has always been a far supperior weapon then the sword when in a proper formation and you have forced the enemy to your front.

[nameless]

Awhile ago I ran a test seeing what was best in dealing with the Aztecs as the Sicilians and found that pike militia were the best on VH settings.

This was about 6 pikemen vs. 10 Aztec warrirors. All infantry.

The Aztecs charged and in 4-5 ranks deep the pikemen were able to effectively hold the Aztecs at bay. Some got through but eventually were repulsed when some units switched to swords to repel them, then went back to pikes afterwards. The pikemen suffered little casualities but I can't say the same for the Aztecs.

Against cavalry their still the best option so I don't see the problem with them as their suppose to be defensive units in the game. I remember in RTW when everyone complained about the invincibility of the phalanx.

If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.

It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.

If your that concerned, see if you can borrow a copy and play a little to see if you like it. Of course there's nothing wrong waiting. I bought RTW a year after it was released. And still love it but I love MTW2 more.

[SMZ]

Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. (...) Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves.

^^ my laugh for the day

=]

[Spark]

Maybe next game CA can implement things properly, and have a few Zwei Handers in the pikemen formation whose job is to deal with anyone who breaks in...

I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.

As to modding the pikemen to force them to use their pikes, I'm undecided. Unsupported pikes in this game only last for a few seconds after initial contact, after which everyone drops the pike for a sword, instead of the rear ranks supporting the front. I believe due to balance issues, CA made pikes the "anti-cavalry unit" but didn't take them as far as RTW did, i.e. unstoppable tanks (I mean come on, hoplites in RTW could fend off practically anything without it so much as getting close to them). I wouldn't want to see a repeat of the hoplite world domination scene that was RTW Greeks :P

I would like a bit of a reworking of pikemen, though. Maybe individual soldiers equipping the sword when required as opposed to everyone dropping the pike as soon as there's a breach somewhere. As is, you need to have reinforcements behind/in front of the pikemen else they will not hold the line against heavy infantry.

[Hashashiyyin]

Big Tex-

I've been trying to find evidence to back up what I stated (I only said it because I read it somewhere and I'm currently going through my "warfare history" books looking for where I read it). It appears you are correct, that the romans developed the sword, pilum, and scutum, as a counter to the gauls (Celts) fighting style. I did, however, find some quotes to back up what I said. Most of the information I can find about the fall of the phalanx has to do with the battles at Cynoscephalae and Pydna which do not include a troop count (estimates point toward a superiority in the Phalanx favor, but this seems more speculation then historic evidence). here it goes:

"Individually the Celts (Guals) were bigger than the Italians and had superior weapons produced by the best iron workers in Europe. The Celtic sword was capable of cutting right through the Italian shield. En masse the Celtic charge was so ferocious that the Italians could not withstand it.

It was to deal with the last two problems that the unique combination of gladius (sword), pilum (heavy javelin) and scutum (body shield) was developed. It was this system that conquered the Mediterranean world in the first and second centuries BC."

-Peter Conolly

"The Romans suffered disaster after disaster, losing nearly half a million men in the half century between 260 and 210 BC, but finally they emerged as masters of the western Mediterranean. The Celts were driven from the Po Valley and Greece was invaded during the early years of the seconds century BC. In two great battles, Cynoscephalae in 197 and Pydna in 168 BS, the supposedly invincible phalanx of the Macedonians was cut to pieces by the roman legions. This greatly astonished the Greek world and proved conclusively that the sword was mightier then the spear."

-Peter Conolly

"Thus, the phalanx was at its weakest when the enemy possessed large numbers of lighter and more flexible troops and it had no such supporting troops to match them with. An example of this is the battle of Lechaeum, where an Athenian army led by Iphicrates, containing a considerable proportion of light missile troops armed with javelins and bows, succeeded in routing an entire Spartan mora (a Spartan unit numbering anywhere from five to nine hundred hoplites). Iphicrates accomplished this by wearing the Spartans down with repeated attacks by his peltasts (skirmishers), causing a general disarray in the Spartan ranks and an eventual rout when the Spartans spotted Athenian heavy infantry reinforcements trying to flank them by boat.

It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."

-Wikipedia (I know, I know! Wikipedia isn't a great source but the material I quoted isn't under dispute at this time, but sill has no references!)

Anyway, not trying to start a flame war or anything, just trying to get to the bottom of the historic falling out of the Phalanx.

[BigTex]

It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."

A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.

Again it was the steady decay of the companions and other horsemen that caused it to fail. Through the constant war's between the diodoche the elites of the macedonians had steadily been killed off most of the companions, and other elites. The steady emmigration from macedonia to other diodoche also hastened their decay.

As far as the skutum, gladius, and pilum combination. It was transfered to the romans from constant fighting with the guals, and spanish.

Part of the reason the phalanx fell out of favor was the steady decay of the greek world. The use of it was nearly forgotten about as the barbarian incurssions swept across europe. By the time of the dark age the old greek tactics were all but forgotten. The romans had steadily changed their tactics to that of nearly all cavalry based quick reaction forces. Most heavy infantry started to decline also. It wasnt until the reniassance brought the surge of classical greek writings did you see the phalanx finally return. It stayed for quite awhile also. Wasnt until the gun had finally become powerful and self reliant that it ceased to be used.

As an intresting side note, it hasnt been until recently that infantry has been really armored since the Medievel era. The amount of armor that has come into use in the past decades for infantry is quite amazing. With the steady use of urban tactics and increase in weapons for the infantry it would seem the that heavy infantry is coming back, all be it not in the same form. History has funny ways of repeating itself.

[Blademun]

I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.

If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.

[dopp]

Since they can't switch to swords now, pikemen who are left stranded in front of the formation will hang on to their pike, check dressing by looking around, and fall back into position. Previously they would draw swords and close with the enemy, getting chopped down as a result.

It does look a bit wierd with pikes sticking through everyone, but this was true even on vanilla settings. You just notice it more because they use their pikes longer.

Pikemen are almost unplayable on normal unit sizes. Their default formation is 8 ranks deep, which you will never achieve with just 75 men per unit. Therefore, their formation is easily disrupted unless they fight other pikemen. Even on huge sizes they drop pikes too easily, it's hit-or-miss with them. It's not that the enemy manage to infiltrate the formation, it's that the pikemen really seem to want to use their swords a little too much.

To get best use out of your modded pikemen, brace them in guard mode with spear wall on. Ironically, this usually results in the entire front rank getting flattened by the charging enemy. I have seen neat rows of dead pikemen lying flat as if mowed down by machinegun fire.

After first contact switch guard mode off and watch them do their thing. They should push forward and destroy the enemy. Do not rightclick the enemy, otherwise you will get that orientation bug where they do an aboutface and present their butts to the enemy.

The pike formation should prove nearly invincible from the front. This is not to say you won't take casualties. The reach of the pike doesn't seem to matter, so the swordsman can chop at the head of the pike and the poor fellow holding it will drop dead. This is already a huge step down in power from the phalanx of RTW, where the formation was for all intents and purposes invulnerable as well as invincible to frontal assault.

When attacked from the side or rear while engaged to the front the pikemen will ignore the enemy and continue stabbing to the front. This of course maintains their horrible vulnerability to getting outflanked. I have only done limited testing on this, I'll do some more later. I stupidly used Dismounted French Knights for the flanking tests, which of course proved inconclusive as the knights are bugged as well. Despite this, the knights beat the militia pikemen they faced easily.

Some tests run using vanilla militia pikemen vs jaguar warriors, normal unit sizes, 5 runs. An average of 10 die on both sides in the initial charge. Jaguar warriors outflank the pikes, but are held at bay from the front. Jaguars break away and charge repeatedly, killing more pikemen with each charge. Jaguars finally break and run. Final strengths 48 pikemen, 32 jaguar warriors. The jaguars are unable to close on the pikes in front, but do well on the sides.

Dismounted French Nobles vs vanilla militia pikemen, one test (before I realized they were bugged). Initial charge demolishes the entire front rank of the pikemen (so much for pikemen being overpowered huh?), 15 pikemen dead vs 7 Nobles. Nobles get stuck in that parry thing, but still manage to kill 10 more pikemen before the militia break and run. Noble losses are 15 or so.

I'll run some more tests and post the results.

Edit: Actually, interesting stuff on that combined arms approach there. However, I still feel pikemen should do more of that poking thing on their own rather than waiting for big brother with the 2-hander to come help out. You are more than welcome to disagree.

Further edit: Pikemen were, of course, the heavy infantry of their time. Initially they were supplemented by sword-and-buckler men, halberdiers and 2-handers, but eventually these additions all proved rather unnecessary, even if they were sometimes very effective at tipping the balance between otherwise evenly-matched pike formations. The role of heavy infantry is to contest ground. Skirmishers and other specialised troops like archers are too light to hold ground, the possession of which is a necessary ingredient for victory in the Western world (in the East it's perhaps a different story; just look at the Mongols). Heavy infantry takes up a position and refuses to be dislodged. If the men are determined to stand (not always a given), nothing short of an attack by opposing heavy infantry can drive them away. Heavy infantry includes Napoleonic musketeers, who fired volleys of lead into each other at 50 yards or less and then charged with bayonets, even though they were completely unarmored. At this stage of infantry development (in the game), however, the bayonet had not yet been invented, and firearms were still not numerous enough to completely replace hand weapons. So you get large blocks of pikemen poking at each other at the culminating moment of the action, and the one who wins the 'push of pike' usually wins the battle. I therefore don't really buy into this specialized 'anti-cavalry' role that pikemen are assigned in M2TW (always assuming, of course, that they are working as intended in the first place). Pikemen are heavy infantry, they should be able to duke it out with the best and come out on top in a head-on confrontation. Once again, you are all welcome to disagree, this is personal taste here. Cost and upkeep can be tweaked, but I feel pikemen should hang on to their pikes much longer and not give in to their inner swordsman.

[tenkesh]

on the first post of teh topic.

[Whacker]

It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.

Outstanding troll. So anyone who has opinions that don't jive with yours is blowing stuff out of proportion?

@ Dopp

Holy crap! I just did what you said for the Scotish Noble Pikeman, copied over the lines from unit w/no secondary attack... This is on huge unit size, medium, and I have vaultdweller's two-hander fix installed.

They absolutely TORE up French mounted Sergeants, French mounted Chivalric Knights, AND Dismounted French Chivalric Knights!!! I think they lost maybe 20 guys to the DCKs, who had 10 left when they routed. If you do it like you said, leave them braced in formation with guard mode on, then turn off guard mode after impact, they will attack much better in the general melee. Of course as someone stated seeing the animations with pikes swinging merrily through their cohorts doesn't look very .... natural.. and they are a bit overpowered, but at least we have a unit that can now reasonably stand up to cav charges.

[IvarrWolfsong]

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

Actually, Medieval pikes came into vogue well before firearms were appearing on the battle fields. The pike formation was, for poorer folks (Swiss or Scots) or people without a warrior culture (Flanders), the answer to the cavalry charge. Bannockburn, Golden Spurs, Otterburn and the dominance of Swiss Pike tactics demonstrated the superiority of pike formations over not only cavalry, but men at arms using mixed melee weapons.

Rather than bringing the pike back inro prominence, firearms served to reduce its use. As firearms became more reliable and cheaper, the ratio of pike to gunners decreased until finally the bayonette put the last pikemen on social security .

The counter to pikemen is (and was)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

missle troops

. Shoot them to pieces before you engage them. Compare Otterburn, where Hotspur raced up to engage the Scots before his bowmen had arrived and was thoroughly trounced against Halidon Hill where the English faced nearly the same force and crushed them after setting up a nice crossfire.

On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes .

[Whacker]

On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes .

Methinks this was because of the shield effect. Hoplites and Pikemen in RTW carried shields which added to their defensive capabilities, whereas pike units in M2TW don't. And yes, I remember the damn Sacred Band and Spartans, they were all but impervious to arrows. That coupled with the 1.5 buttspike bug just made them that much tougher to deal with. Best way to beat em was a healthy dose of pila, followed by a left-flank charge with the sword-based infantry.