EB Preview : Hayasdan Reforms

[Morte66]

What happens if "I" as Armenian ruler decide that I don't give a stuff about replacing the Achaemenid dynasty, and I would serve my people better by expanding north or west than by trying to grind through the biggest faction in the game?

Will the reform rules indirectly hamper me with government limitations etc?

[Foot]

Well you won't be able to put type III or type IV Govs outside of the Caucasus, but was going to happen anyway. Really I want to implement a system whereby it would be impossible to build a government building in any nomadic province, but I haven't figured one out yet. If you want to expand into Anatolia or above north of the pontic coast, be my guest. Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build).

Foot

[Geoffrey S]

So no government would be possible, not even IV (military alliance)?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Really I want to implement a system whereby it would be impossible to build a government building in any nomadic province, but I haven't figured one out yet.
Foot

Read carefully, Geoffrey

[Laevex]

This preview has made me get butterflies about the release of 1.0 so bad! Hayasdan will definately become a hugely popular faction now that EB lets Hai commanders reforge the Persian Empire. That just sounds so fun to me!

All you guys at EB are brilliant!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Well, you'll have to wait for 1.0 a very long time, as 0.9 is the next release. And it will surely be awesome enough to cover up the time untill 1.0

[Krusader]

Well, you'll have to wait for 1.0 a very long time, as 0.9 is the next release. And it will surely be awesome enough to cover up the time untill 1.0

And you know this how?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Simple method of eleminating that which is wrong or implausible, and therefore finding out that which is right. Or just that this one is a really mayor release and the last mayor release was 0.8.

[russia almighty]

Oh 1.0 is gonna be the next release . I threaten to cut of the brownies .

[sass]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

Thanks.

[Ludens]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

I am completely baffled as to why you think this is the last nail in EB's coffin. It's a just friggin' reform for one single faction. You don't even have to reform if you don't want to. It doesn't restrict the player, it actually gives more options for the Armenian player.

Nor do I understand why you consider the oliphaunt cheat the only thing that kept this mod from being boring. If you only appreciate the cheat elephants, then why do you play this mod in the first place? EB is about a historical playstyle. If that doesn't suit you, that's fine. To each his own. But the majority of people on this forum would disagree with you that further historical reforms would make the game boring.

[Foot]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

I'm sorry you feel this way. But I'm afraid that the numbers disagree with you. The most popular campaign is the Romani, in part no doubt because of their place in pop culture, but also because of their reforms. These Hayasdan reforms work in exactly the same way, if you want to do them you can, if you don't then you don't have to. Nothing is subtracted from the gaming experience that existed before for Hayasdan, this adds an option that wasn't present before.

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking

Well every part of the game is not scripted so I don't know what youre complaining about. No style is forced on you, you can still conquer provinces to your hearts content. The only way this could be seen as limiting is if we had previously released EB with 1 turn build times, otherwise I don't see any difference between building up the military of a province and this, this way just takes longer.

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

What unit scripts don't work? I have done extensive testing with this script, there is very little chance that bugs can creep in, its hardly a complex script. We haven't removed the elephant cheat (I assume you mean the olliphant cheat), there is no way how, I believe the large elephants are still in game (may be wrong about that). But then that hardly matters, we are not catering to RTW fans who want a few extra units, we are recreating history here - and thats not to everyones taste.

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building

You really seem to have missed the point of why we put all this work into EB. Thats fine, there is no wrong way to play the game, but don't expect any sympathy from the team. We have put a lot of depth into the game, that is the direction we have always moved in. We cannot and will not cater to every one. For example, if we catered exclusively to you then many of our fans would also leave because they are not interested in the gameplay you are, and neither are we.

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

Thank you for your loyalty, but quite frankly it does not matter one jot to me. I have added here something that has taken time and effort to learn and script and finish, because I feel that in the spirit of EB it is something that will add rather than detract from the game that EB is trying to make.

That you see a different EB spirit belies an obvious misunderstanding. We will push people into a certain way of playing, we make the romani reforms come late in the day, we make sure that converting a province into a Type I gov takes time and we slow generals down in adverse conditions. But the great thing about modding is, if you don't like it you can change it. You've already shown this by modding your build to have "one turn building and unit building". The script can likewise be modified, if you don't like what I've done above then you can change it. If you can't be bothered to do so then you can either live with it or stop playing, quite frankly it doesn't bother me either way. I do this job out of enjoyment and a shared vision for what EB could be. EB could never be a haven for blitzers like yourself, though it can accomodate them if necessary and with a little modding, and if EB did wish to be so I would leave at that moment.

So your criticism is not heard, because we do not nor ever have catered to blitzers. If your criticism was based on historicity, or gameplay that kept within the spirit of EB then I would discuss it, but we are attacking this problem from two different angles, no common ground can be found - I'm surprised, for such a loyal fan, that you thought otherwise.

Foot

[Karo]

I have a funny Feeling that you just put the last nail in EBs coffen for alot of people..

Its ok To script some parts of the game..like for roman reforms..But when every part of the game ends up Scripted then your putting us in a corner and there is No more Freedom to build or blitz according to everyones playing styal..Why would you force your styal of play on us with out asking

If it was not already bad enough that alot of the unit scripts dont work..Whats going to happen now? And we'll have to wait a few months to get those fixed so it will be playable? You already removed the elephont cheat that kept this already dusty game from getting anymore boreing then it already is..So..Unless there is a way of changeing or turning the script off then atlest ahandful of us are going to stop playing this mod...

Me persenaly I stopped playing the game such as building up ur money and building things from turn to turn back in 04 lol and the money bugs are not gone yet..So its basicly a waste of time..I prefure to use money cheats and build massive armys and distory the map..I don't know what you guys have agenst cheating..Becouse it still takes days and weeks to beat with Cheats lol

And thats with One turn Building and Unit building

I've been very loyal to this game since the first build, Id like alittle postive non aggresive feed back on this please i mean the scripting and if it can be turned off..

Thanks.

I'm a Hay myself and I think thiss is the on of the few mods who really represend the Hay faction. with this reforms they're creation a unique faction that the Hayastan really was in those days with influences from east and west so this is only making evrey thing better not worse and if you don't like this don't play the faction. this game is for historical accuaries not only for gameplay or so.

@foot I've got a question when you're trying to build a cucasian empire so the first reform can happen what is there to do about the grey dead attacking you before that time. if they attack you before you're finished building a real kingdom you're going to be toasted. Because you're core units will not be availble in the begining as I understood. so can there be something done about them attacking you before the first reforme

[Morte66]

sass does touch on a few things that had me worried for a while...

Well every part of the game is not scripted so I don't know what youre complaining about. No style is forced on you, you can still conquer provinces to your hearts content.

The description on the first page is a little impenetrable, it's sometimes not immediately obvious (to me) which restrictions apply to which provinces. But after re-reading it a few times, it seems that you have:

a) Generally slowed down the process of assimilation and government building for the Hai. Is this going to happen to other factions?

b) Required that some things be done in a certain order, e.g. you must bulild roads and markets and poulation in Armavir, then Type 1 government in Armavir, before you can build a Type 1 government in Ani Kamah or Type 2 in Kotais. This is a new restriction.

c) Added some stuff about recreating the Achaemenid dydnasty if you choose to go in a certain direction and meet certain conditions. But you don't require players to go in that direction, the Achaemenids can also be forgotten.

Am I reading it right?

I found the announcement a bit alarming at first, e.g. I was worried that I would have to conquer Sophene and give myself a land frontier with the Seleucids before I could get the reforms to let me build the governments (and hence MICs/troops) I want. But on a close reading, that doesn't seem to be the case.

But the great thing about modding is, if you don't like it you can change it.

Pfft. If you don't like it, you can get a team of a couple of dozen people together and work for a few years and make your own mod. Pull the other leg, it's got bells on. ;)

EB could never be a haven for blitzers

It is fair enough that you make a mod to suit a certain style of play. And I like it for what it's meant to do, and I'll play something else (e.g. the Dies Irae mod for BI) to get a more lightning style. But there is one thing I always wonder: if you guys got the gameplay working exactly the way you wanted, then pushed the start date back a few decades, would Alexander's conquests be possible?

[Basileus Seleukeia]

But there is one thing I always wonder: if you guys got the gameplay working exactly the way you wanted, then pushed the start date back a few decades, would Alexander's conquests be possible?

Well, actually did only conquer these regions, he never "controled" them like depicted in the game. If you had to represent Alexanders actions, the government buildings would cost 0 gold and will be build in 1 turn. He just gave the control to his friends. He didin't do a lot of things to preserve his empire, but he did a lot to create one very fast. That was the reason for his failure, imho.

[Kepper]

Great work it the Reforms, are any planes to give a reform to Baktria after they control of the Indians region

[KARTLOS]

Well you won't be able to put type III or type IV Govs outside of the Caucasus, but was going to happen anyway. Really I want to implement a system whereby it would be impossible to build a government building in any nomadic province, but I haven't figured one out yet. If you want to expand into Anatolia or above north of the pontic coast, be my guest. Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build).

Foot

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

i have a long-haysadan campaign.

in my campaign i took out the selucids first- which would kind of fit with these changes. this was mainly out of necessity as we were at war from the start and they will never make peace.

after the selucids i set about taking all the provinces surrounding the black sea. this brought me into war with the getai, sweboz and sarmatians. This has probably been the most enjoyable part of my campaign - very different fighting style of the enemies i now encounter. PLus MOST importantly i have really enjoyed the new troops i can recruit in this region - greek units like hoplites in the coastal regions, nomad style troops like scythian horse archers and nobles, thracian nobles etc.

are you telling me that these troops will no longer be available to the hay-player?

[Morte66]

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

I'm hoping it's a typo, and he meant "you will not be able to build anything except type 3/4 outside the Caucasus (unless you do the Achaemenid restoration thing to get some higher governments in the old Persian empire)". That seems to match the details in the first post.

[KARTLOS]

I'm hoping it's a typo, and he meant "you will not be able to build anything except type 3/4 outside the Caucasus (unless you do the Achaemenid restoration thing to get some higher governments in the old Persian empire)". That seems to match the details in the first post.

i hope so!

my only complaint about the haysadan so far has been the slightly limited recruitment options once you expand beyond their natural boundaries. I currently hold a few german provinces and the only units availabe are celtic slingers & spearmen - i was hoping this kind of thing would be expanded. It would be good if the recruitment options you have in ankyra (light and heavy cav, celtic bowmen etc) were also available in mainland europe.

i believe the getai capital has very lmited recruitment options (perhaps just spearmen) it would be good if we could recruit some unique regionals here.

several of the provinces in the "holy land" i.e modern syria/ lebanon israel etc also have very limited recruitment - though i presume these new changes will help fix it.

also i am now moving south into arabia - so far the recruitment option have been very limited, i believe just spearmen - it would be good if this was expanded.

i was dissapointed that recruiting "phalanx" stlye troops from newly conquered "greek" regions (i.e selucid, ptolmaic and makedon regions) is not possible. i woudl have though that it would be possible to press some of the defeated greeks into your service.
considering you can recruit hoplites in some regions there is a slight contradiction here.

[Kull]

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

i have a long-haysadan campaign.

in my campaign i took out the selucids first- which would kind of fit with these changes. this was mainly out of necessity as we were at war from the start and they will never make peace.

after the selucids i set about taking all the provinces surrounding the black sea. this brought me into war with the getai, sweboz and sarmatians. This has probably been the most enjoyable part of my campaign - very different fighting style of the enemies i now encounter. PLus MOST importantly i have really enjoyed the new troops i can recruit in this region - greek units like hoplites in the coastal regions, nomad style troops like scythian horse archers and nobles, thracian nobles etc.

are you telling me that these troops will no longer be available to the hay-player?

Good lord man, did you even read the excerpt that you quoted? "Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build)." So yes, you can still recruit non-armenian units in non-armenian provinces, just like every other faction. And again per the quote, it will probably be even better in the next build than it is in v.81a. How you could misinterpret that as "no units" is utterly beyond me.

[KARTLOS]

Good lord man, did you even read the excerpt that you quoted? "Regional recruitment isn't too bad there (or shouldn't be in the next build)." So yes, you can still recruit non-armenian units in non-armenian provinces, just like every other faction. And again per the quote, it will probably be even better in the next build than it is in v.81a. How you could misinterpret that as "no units" is utterly beyond me.

fair point, but what he has written is slightly confusing. if you couldnt even build type iii or iv in nomad lands then how could you recruit?

[KARTLOS]

i forgot to see anything positive abourt the preview!

it all seems very excting- i am looking forward to starting my haysadan empire all over again.

could you give an example of the type of troops you will now be able to recruit in a fully reformed Persepolis?

[Kull]

fair point, but what he has written is slightly confusing. if you couldnt even build type iii or iv in nomad lands then how could you recruit?

Well first of all, as Morte66 points out, it was obviously a typo about not building the Type 3&4 outside of the Caucasus, as the entire preview contradicts that statement. As to "no govs in the steppe", that's more a wish than anything, and frankly it's a reasonable one. Building a typical Type 3 and 4 in the middle of the pure nomad provinces seems rather unlikely from a historical accuracy point of view. But the EB team has not come up with a good alternative, and the gov system was always intended to be roughly representative and not a 100% depiction of the way things really were in this era. But rest assured that if we DO find a way to eliminate those gov types from the steppe, the result will NOT be to eliminate all recruitment from the steppe.....give us some credit for not being complete fools, please.

[KARTLOS]

Well first of all, as Morte66 points out, it was obviously a typo about not building the Type 3&4 outside of the Caucasus, as the entire preview contradicts that statement. As to "no govs in the steppe", that's more a wish than anything, and frankly it's a reasonable one. Building a typical Type 3 and 4 in the middle of the pure nomad provinces seems rather unlikely from a historical accuracy point of view. But the EB team has not come up with a good alternative, and the gov system was always intended to be roughly representative and not a 100% depiction of the way things really were in this era. But rest assured that if we DO find a way to eliminate those gov types from the steppe, the result will NOT be to eliminate all recruitment from the steppe.....give us some credit for not being complete fools, please.

i dont think type 3/4 govs are too unrealistic for nomads - they can be intertpreted as representing an aliance/trubutary/vassal relationship with the regional tribe.

[keravnos]

Well, actually did only conquer these regions, he never "controled" them like depicted in the game. If you had to represent Alexanders actions, the government buildings would cost 0 gold and will be build in 1 turn. He just gave the control to his friends. He didin't do a lot of things to preserve his empire, but he did a lot to create one very fast. That was the reason for his failure, imho.

Reading some Arrian "Alexanders' March upcountry"=ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ, for both the voicemod, and personal enjoyment, I have only this to quote, not directed at you in anyway but to all those who throughout the time have doubted, cursed, spat upon and generally mistreated he who is the greatest general/Tactician of all times. (Hannibal very close second)

I imagine Arrian wrote it, as he himself must have been hearing ugly stuff about Alexander from whichever source and for whatever reason..

In capital, as ancient greek was written at the time,

Arrian's "ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ" , Book 7, Chapter 28, 1-2 and Chapter 30, 1-2"

... ΟΣΤΙΣ ΔΕ ΚΑΚΙΖΕΙ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΝ
... ΟΥΤΩ ΔΗ ΕΚΛΟΓΙΖΕΣΘΩ ΟΣΤΙΣ ΤΕ ΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΙΑΙ ΤΥΧΗΙ ΚΕΧΡΗΜΕΝΟΣ ΟΝΤΙΝΑ ΓΕΝΟΜΕΝΟΝ ΕΚΕΙΝΟΝ...
... ΣΜΙΚΡΟΤΕΡΟΣ ΤΕ ΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΣΜΙΚΡΟΙΣ ΠΟΝΟΥΜΕΝΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΟΥΔΕ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΕΝ ΚΟΣΜΩΙ ΤΙΘΕΜΕΝΟΣ.

=

... Αnd to whoever disapproves/accuses Alexander
... let him ponder who he is (the one who disapproves/accuses), what he has achieved so far in his life at and compare this to how accomplished Alexanders' (life was)...
... while he himself is insignificant, bent on insignificant things, unable to complete even those.

I think will make this my stock answer to those trying to diminish ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ and his legacy, for whichever ugly/fatal flaws his character had, his accomplishments and pure wonder, are nothing but awe inspiring.

What Arrianos wrote is nothing but the truth, millenia ago, and also now. It will also be truth, millenia from now, written in the same letters you see in the first quote, but translated in a different language we can't even imagine, assuming mankind exists then.

THAT is Megas Alexandros' power.

Alexander's greatest legacy is no territory in land or his astounding victories. It is his dream. The dream of the "Brotherhood of Man". An ideal that we should try to bring into being. A few months before his death, as recorded by the Alexandrian philosopher Eratosthenes (275-194 BCE) -Strabo XV, 1,49 spoke the following words in an assembly of nine thousand officers and leaders of all races...

--Now as the wars come to an end, I wish that you will live happily in peace. All mortals, from now onwards, should live like one nation, in amity, for the common progress. You should consider the world as your country, with common laws, where the noble ones will govern. I do not divide the people into Greeks and Barbarians as the narrow-minded do. I am neither interested in the origin of the citizens nor concerned with the race into which they were born. I classify them with only one criterion, Virtue. For me, every good foreigner (xenos) is a Greek and every bad Greek is worse than a Barbarian. If ever there would be disputes do not take resort to the use of weapons but solve them peacefully. If there is need I shall stand as your arbitrator. You should not think about God as a despotic governor, but as the common father of all; so your behaviour should be like that which the brothers in a family have. From my side I consider all, white and black, as equal. I do not want you to merely be the subjects of my state but participants and partners. To the full extent of my capacity I shall try to apply whatever I promise. Keep this vow that we give today with prudence as a symbol of Love.--

[sass]

Well thats fine..

But if you intend To do things that deppend on certen buildings being built etc..you need to put out a page on the forum that tells, spoiler or not what every reform takes to happen.. otherwise like before You have people in here bitching for answers to why this unit is missing or something..Also currently there are scripts that do not work A. for this factian alone catafracts dont WORK!! you cannot recurt them nore there other elite unit out side the capital and thats lame..However you seem to have a fix or something thats not the same as the scrit working..Also one of the steppe reforms is NOt working has it ever really worked? it did in the last build..then there was the celtic reforms that where bugged..etc..


As for the main point..that some of us already after i posted are not so sure about the A. Reqired building terms before you can tec up or get a new reform..DO you relize how many turns that would take and how much cash? Your actiely makeing people use money cheeats this will be the most cheated with factian hahah...listen im sure ill end up likeing it..But if not..You still should have a page showing people how to alter the changes with out to much fuss and aggresive rudeness of how someones butchering your art work..And you should care what Me and others think of what you do..Offending to many people and you'll be playing alone..the forums already dead just a thought..

[Karo]

Why should they. You're the only one who's not liking the chages the rest of us loves them and I'm sure this will work the way t should and remeber the mod is still beta

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

The mod's not beta. It hasn't really been since v0.80. Don't let the numbering system confuse you. It isn't complete, but it isn't beta. In fact, I have play a great many off-the-shelf video games that are far less complete than EB. No offense, it's just fustration. Really, we're begging you, tell everyone that it isn't beta and not to be afraid of it.

[Karo]

I know It's more complete than most sorry if I called it a beta but whatI ment it's not complete jet and and I'm trying to get new players to Eb

[keravnos]

The point is that what Foot is doing with the Hayasdan is what Tigranes II would do if he was around some 100 or more years earlier.

If you have doubts on "how to get there", remember Foot is the Faction Co-ordinator for the Hayasdan. He is also in a position to know how history unfolded, and better, how it could unfold if Tigranes II or someone of his calliber had the power to do so.

Having read the reforms it makes sense to me. 1 plus 1 =2. 2 plus 2=4.... this way you will be the Restored Achaimenid Empire in a jiffy in logical steps. You can even have the option to keep some Hellenic troops around or go for the full Persian thing.

The "option" you keep talking about, just isn't there.

Listen, in theory, everyone could sit around all day, and have all the fun in the world. In reality you need to work. so that you can eat (among other things). To work you need to have an education/skillset that market requires. To get that education you need to go to college/technical school. To go to...

Catch my drift?