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Thread: Faction specific development topic - Burgundy (introduction)

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    Default Faction specific development topic - Burgundy (introduction)

    I. Faction

    1. Naming patterns
    a. General discussion
    All right, this is a complex matter and having a good name list with such a limited engine is trickier than one could think. I also think naming patterns play an important part in the immersive feeling a mod can provide. Since I have some experience with naming traditions (because of the importance of genealogy in emblem studies), this aspect of modding was the first I worked on (since MTW I would add). Over time I've come up with a personnal method to get the result better and better. There are two important aspects I want to discuss before going further.

    The first concerns uniformization of those lists. Since factions dont represent one culture both in a matter of space and time, it seems important to me to choose the most satisfying timeframe & dialect and always stick to it. As an example here, the burgundian kingdom could be seen as a political entity spread over at least four cultures. This means that even the modern transcription of the names will change from one area to another : Gérard, Girard, Géraud or Giraud are all names you can use for a burgundian characters but they all refers to the same germanic root Gerhard. As a result, none of these five (including Gerhard) are wrong but you also cant really mix them in the same list. The same logic goes behind diminituve or pet forms (although the first would have to be discussed for some italian dialects and their most common specific forms like Ugo/Ugolino/Uguccione). This is specially true when the name change in time like it does in Provence when the father dies (one Raymondet, usually the son of a Raymond, would only use the first form during the life of his father). Concerning the form of the name itself I prefer to go with the most academic form used because you cant represent the evolution of the spelling over time anyway leading to some strange anachronistic names. Having to represent different periods and their naming patterns with one list is complex enough to avoid more interference.

    This leads to my second point about those naming patterns & the frequencies.
    Because specific naming traditions were so important in the middle ages, I think its important to represent them in every aspect. Frequencies can differs from one name to another but also from one culture to another. Some dialects had incredibly varied naming patterns like tuscan (in which the most used first names would be given to less than 5% of the men) while others were more strictly formatted by tradition (in french and english for example, the same two names John/Jean & Guillaume/William could represents more than 25% of the names in the same generation). The other aspect to take into consideration here is the evolution of these patterns over time. Five hundred years of history is a huge timeframe and its often possible to split it into several periods : french names for example follow the uniformization of the french culture in the 14th and 15th, and get less region specific after 1300; on the other hand they get some very specific culture oriented patterns before 1050-1100 in some regions (germanic in burgundy, norse in normandy). Of course political events like the norman conquest in southern italy determine these even more : lombard names (Pandolfo, Landolfo, Trasmundo) mix with norman names (Guillaume, Richard, Roger) which themselves get italianized later (Guglielmo, Riccardo, Ruggero) and the process is repeated with the angevine rule (families from Provence, but working in both ways this time).
    The method I use to be sure both of these aspects are accurately reproduced is to establish a database of individuals (usually more than 500 but 1000 is closer to what you need for an accurate result) using a determined source (genealogy, seals database or some census like the florentine one) and timeframe. Then its only a matter of parsing the result to match frequencies (dont really need a list 1500 entries long) and arranging the list by merging alternate spellings. Of course you still need some knowledge in the given language to get a perfect result which is where I hope some contributions will help.

    b. Burgundy
    Less talk, more result.
    The source used here is a mix of my seal database and genealogies plus some complementary surnames from online genealogies. The result gave me an index of 1400 names (including 280 surnames) used between 1000 and 1350 in Dauphiné, Savoie, Forez, Bourgogne and Provence. French surmanes arent hard to figure since they are always patronymic and hereditary (Adhémar, Bérenger, Gantelme, etc) or locative (de Viennois, de Royans, de Savoie). Usually, there are no occupationnal or descriptive surnames (even Porcellet isnt in this case, although you can find some of them later, in lower nobility, specially in Savoie, Valais and Vaud).
    Resulting list is following :

    Male first names
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Aicard
    Aicard
    Albert
    Albert
    Amédée
    Amédée
    Amédée
    Amédée
    Amédée
    Amédée
    Artaud
    Artaud
    Aymar
    Aymar
    Aymar
    Aymon
    Aymon
    Aymon
    Aymon
    Aynard
    Barthélémy
    Bérard
    Bérenger
    Bernard
    Bertrand
    Bertrand
    Bertrand
    Bertrand
    Bertrand
    Bertrand
    Boniface
    Bouchard
    Conon
    Conon
    Ebles
    Etienne
    Etienne
    Eustache
    Evrard
    Foulques
    Foulques
    Foulques-Bertrand
    Foulques-Guillaume
    Gaucher
    Gaucher
    Gauthier
    Geoffroy
    Geoffroy
    Geoffroy
    Geoffroy-Guillaume
    Gilbert
    Giraud
    Giraud
    Giraud
    Giraud
    Giraud
    Guichard
    Guichard
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues
    Guigues-Raymond
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume
    Guillaume-Hugues
    Henri
    Hugues
    Hugues
    Hugues
    Hugues
    Hugues
    Hugues
    Hugues
    Hugues-Geoffroy
    Humbert
    Humbert
    Humbert
    Humbert
    Humbert
    Humbert
    Humbert
    Isnard
    Isoard
    Isoard
    Jean
    Jocerand
    Lambert
    Lambert
    Lambert-Hugues
    Laugier
    Louis
    Louis
    Manasses
    Othon
    Othon
    Othon
    Othon-Guillaume
    Pierre
    Pierre
    Pierre
    Pierre
    Pierre-Geoffroy
    Pierre-Isoard
    Pons
    Pons
    Pons
    Pons
    Pons
    Raimbaud
    Raimbaud
    Raymond
    Raymond
    Raymond
    Raymond
    Raymond
    Raymond-Geoffroy
    Raymond-Hugues
    Renaud
    Renaud
    Renaud
    Richard
    Richard
    Robert
    Rodolphe
    Rodolphe
    Roger
    Roncelin
    Rostain
    Rostain
    Siboud
    Simon
    Thierry
    Thomas


    Women first names
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Adélaïde
    Adélaïde
    Adélaïde
    Adélaïs
    Adèle
    Agnès
    Agnès
    Agnès
    Aisceline
    Alisia
    Alix
    Alix
    Alix
    Alix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Béatrix
    Berthe
    Berthe
    Cécile
    Cécile
    Clémence
    Clémence
    Constance
    Douce
    Eléonore
    Emma
    Ermentrude
    Etiennette
    Euphémie
    Flotte
    Garsende
    Garsende
    Gisèle
    Ida
    Isabelle
    Isabelle
    Isoarde
    Jeanne
    Josserande
    Laure
    Mabile
    Marguerite
    Marguerite
    Marie
    Marquise
    Marquise
    Mathilde
    Mathilde
    Odile
    Pétronille
    Philippa
    Poncia
    Roaïs
    Sibille
    Sibille
    Sophie
    Stéphanie
    Tiburge
    Tiburge


    Surnames
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Adhémar
    Alègre
    Allemand
    Amic
    Artaud
    Bérenger
    Chabert
    d'Agoult
    d'Aix
    d'Albon
    d'Angérieu
    d'Anthon
    d'Argental
    d'Aspremont
    d'Auxonne
    de Bâgé
    de Bardonnêche
    de Barras
    de Beaujeu
    de Blacas
    de Blonay
    de Bourgogne
    de Brancion
    de Bressieux
    de Briançon
    de Brion
    de Castellane
    de Cavaillon
    de Chablais
    de Chalençon
    de Chalon
    de Champvent
    de Chastelard
    de Châteauneuf
    de Châtillon
    de Claveyson
    de Clérieu
    de Clermont
    de Coligny
    de Comps
    de Cossonay
    de Damas
    de Die
    de Domène
    de Duyn
    de Faucigny
    de Faucogney
    de Flotte
    de Forcalquier
    de Forez
    de Fos
    de Genève
    de Gévaudan
    de Gigondas
    de Glandevès
    de Grailly
    de Grammont
    de Grandson
    de Grasse
    de Grésy
    de Jas
    de Joinville
    de Joux
    de la Bâtie
    de la Garde
    de la Porte
    de la Roue
    de la Sarraz
    de la Tour
    de Laire
    de Lambesc
    de Lausanne
    de Lavieu
    de Lévis
    de Lissieu
    de Loras
    de Lucinge
    de Lunel
    de Mâcon
    de Marseille
    de Mauvoisin
    de Mello
    de Menthon
    de Meroy
    de Mévouillon
    de Miribel
    de Moirans
    de Mont
    de Montauban
    de Montbéliard
    de Montclair
    de Montclar
    de Montdragon
    de Montfaucon
    de Montfort
    de Montluel
    de Montolieu
    de Mornas
    de Moustiers
    de Neufchâtel
    de Nice
    de Noyers
    de Poitiers
    de Pontevès
    de Prangins
    de Provence
    de Quarante
    de Ray
    de Rians
    de Rochefort
    de Rochemure
    de Roquemaure
    de Rosans
    de Rossillon
    de Roussillon
    de Royans
    de Rue
    de Sabran
    de Saint-Didier
    de Sainte-Croix
    de Saint-Geoirs
    de Saint-Quentin
    de Saint-Symphorien
    de Sassenage
    de Savoie
    de Semur
    de Simiane
    de Taulignan
    de Theys
    de Thoire-Villars
    de Tournon
    de Tullins
    de Vassalieu
    de Vaugrineuse
    de Vaumarcus
    de Venasque
    de Vence
    de Vergy
    de Vesc
    de Vienne
    de Viennois
    de Villette
    de Virieu
    de Vuippens
    des Allinges
    des Baux
    des Salins
    d'Hauterives
    d'Hostun
    d'Omelas
    d'Oraison
    d'Orange
    d'Oron
    du Puy
    d'Urgel
    Fermineau
    Gantelme
    Gaucelin
    Porcellet


    2. Family tree

    At the start of the game, the burgundian kings comes from the main line of the Welf dynasty. Little is known on their lives and even less on the live of their relatives. Although some of them lived at the court and were designed as close relatives in the royal acts, it's still very difficult to place them in the family tree. While things stay theorical for a good part of the tree, I've tried to reproduce the state of the dynasty in 1017. The extinction of the cousin branch before the death of Rodolphe III, fifteen years later, sealed the fate of the dynasty leaving the kingdom opened to a chaotic succession between the sisters of Rodolphe (he had six).
    The heart of the kingdom being the region of Lausanne and Genève, it's not very surprising to observe that the closest vassals and relatives to the king were the local counts in pago gebennensis, the future counts of Genève or Maurienne/Savoie (queen Ermengarde probably was the sister of the first count, his protector & advisor during all her life). For now, I've left Humbert de Maurienne out of the tree since Savoie could be added after the first release (this could be discussed though).



    Actual code of the tree :

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ; Rodolphe king of Burgundy from 993 to 1032/33. He had two illegitimate children but no heir.
    character Rodolphe_iii de_Bourgogne, named character, male, leader, age 47, x 123, y 238
    traits Factionleader 1
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Rodolphe was a nephew of king Rodolphe III, living at the royal court and probable heir to the kingdom. He was killed in 1019.
    character Rodolphe_iv de_Bourgogne, named character, male, heir, age 18, x 127, y 238
    traits Factionheir 1
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; probably coruling count of Geneva with his brother Robert in 1017, married Mathilde of Burgundy who is attested to be the grandmother of another Gérold count of Geneva after the fall of the kingdom.
    character Gerold de_Geneve, named character, male, age 47, x 114, y 238
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Henri, bishop of Lausanne (985-1019), son of Rodolphe (B), duke in Alsace, he should be 65-70
    character Henri de_Bourgogne, named character, male, age 60, x 129, y 238
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Conon(B), possibly the son of Conon(A), father of Rodolphe(IV). Attested count and relative at royal court in 1018
    character Conon_ii de_Bourgogne, named character, male, age 41, x 130, y 238
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Berthold, possibly the son of Conon(A) and another count from the king's entourage attested in 1018
    character Berthold de_Bourgogne, named character, male, age 39, x 131, y 238
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0


    ; Rodolphe II, king of Burgundy (912-937). His wife is Berthe of Swabia
    character_record Rodolphe_ii de_Bourgogne, male, age 95, dead 80, never_a_leader
    character_record Berthe, female, age 95, dead 81, never_a_leader

    ; Rodolphe (B), son of Rodolphe II, duke in Alsace. Died ca 962-973. His wife name is unknown.
    character_record Rodolphe_iib de_Bourgogne, male, age 79, dead 45, never_a_leader
    character_record Gisele, female, age 75, dead 63, never_a_leader

    ; Kuno (Conon) (A), younger son of Rodolphe (B) duke in Alsace, he could be the father of Conon (B) and Berthold, counts at the royal court in 1018. Unknown wife.
    character_record Conon de_Bourgogne, male, age 57, dead 24, never_a_leader
    character_record Alisia, female, age 55, dead 18, never_a_leader

    character_record Sibille, female, age 37, alive, never_a_leader

    ; Conrad III, king of Burgundy (937-993), his second wife was Mathilde de France (died ca 983-992)
    character_record Conrad de_Bourgogne, male, age 80, dead 24, never_a_leader
    character_record Mathilde, female, age 79, dead 25, never_a_leader

    ; Mathilde was the daughter of king Conrad and Mathilde de France, she married a member of the Geroldian family, counts of Geneva. Her date of death and the first name of her husband are unknown.
    character_record Mathilde de_Bourgogne, female, age 43, dead 20, never_a_leader
    character_record Gerold, male, age 60, dead 18, never_a_leader

    ; Ermengarde is second the wife of Rodolphe III. She was very close to Humbert de Savoie, who was probably his brother.
    character_record Ermengarde, female, age 30, alive, never_a_leader

    relative Rodolphe_ii de_Bourgogne, Berthe, Conrad de_Bourgogne, Rodolphe_iib de_Bourgogne, end
    relative Rodolphe_iib de_Bourgogne, Gisele, Henri de_Bourgogne, Conon de_Bourgogne, end
    relative Conon de_Bourgogne, Alisia, Conon_ii de_Bourgogne, Berthold de_Bourgogne, end
    relative Conon_ii de_Bourgogne, Sibille, Rodolphe_iv de_Bourgogne, end
    relative Conrad de_Bourgogne, Mathilde, Rodolphe_iii de_Bourgogne, Mathilde de_Bourgogne, end
    relative Rodolphe_iii de_Bourgogne, Ermengarde, end
    relative Gerold, Mathilde de_Bourgogne, Gerold de_Geneve, end


    Note that the game engine somewhat limit the possibilities and that the tree could have to be arranged a bit later to suit the family tree settings in db. The problem being that CA didnt seem to think that people should stop aging once they die (thats why all the ancestor are older than following generations, even if they died younger themselves).

    3. Other characters

    Political situation of the kingdom isnt good in 1017. King Rodolphe III, who promised his succession to emperor Heinrich the year before, had limited power outside the Alpine part of his territory. His loyal subjects are local dynasties of the area from Grenoble to Lausanne (Albon, Grandson, Faucigny dynasties for example) and most of the burgundian prelates, as the Welf often placed their relatives (mostly illegitimate children) at the most importants sees (Vienne, Lyon, Sion, Lausanne & Genève). As a consequence of this strategy of favouring the church against the nobility, the bishops were often invested with temporal power in Upper Burgundy (in Vaud, Valais, Viennois, Lyonnais).
    In the southern part, the bosonid counts of Provence almost act as an independent power since they have retaken the coast from the muslims at the end of the tenth century.
    King Rodolphe also have to face a serious rebellion in Upper Burgundy (enough to call the emperor for help), against the counts of Mâcon (future palatine counts of Bourgogne) of the house of Ivrea, former kings of Italy.

    Current character list (very sketchy)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    ; Guillaume III, comte de Provence
    character Guillaume de_Provence, named character, male, age 41, x 66, y 207
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Guillaume V, marquis de Provence, cousin of previous. He's the son of queen Ermengarde with her first husband, count Roubaud II de Provence
    character Guillaume_ii de_Provence, named character, male, age 18, x 69, y 221
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Guglielmo d'Ivrea, count of Mâcon. Highly unloyal or rebelling at game start.
    character Othon-Guillaume d_Ivree, named character, male, age 55, x 103, y 244
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Son of Guglielmo d'Ivrea, associate count of Macon, Highly unloyal or rebelling at game start.
    character Renaud de_Macon, named character, male, age 37, x 104, y 244
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Seigneur de Nice and Orange.
    character Laugier de_Nice, named character, male, age 38, x 89, y 195
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0


    ; Guillaume II, vicomte de Marseille.
    character Guillaume de_Marseille, named character, male, age 51, x 69, y 206
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0


    ; comte de Grésivaudan-Dauphiné, seigneur d'Albon.
    character Guigues d_Albon, named character, male, age 28, x 95, y 228
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0


    ; comte de Maurienne-Savoie.
    character Humbert de_Savoie, named character, male, age 42, x 107, y 225
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Lord of Baux in the first quarter of the 11th c.
    character Hugues des_Baux, named character, male, age 38, x 63, y 221
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; future counts of Forcalquier.
    character Guillaume de_Sabran, named character, male, age 32, x 71, y 223
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    ; Count of Valence, founder of the Poitiers-Valentinois & Adhemar-Monteil. Related to Laugier de Nice.
    character Lambert Adhémar, named character, male, age 35, x 93, y 242
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    character Lambert de_Grandson, named character, male, age 44, x 128, y 240
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0

    character Gaucher de_Salins, named character, male, age 50, x 128, y 253
    army
    unit NE Bodyguard exp 1 armour 0 weapon_lvl 0


    4. Titles

    Still WIP
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Marseille/Comté de Provence
    Count of Provence - comte de Provence - comes provincie
    Viscount of Marseille - vicomte de Marseille - vicecomes massiliensis
    Bishop of Marseille - évêque de Marseille - episcopus massiliensis

    Arles/Comté d'Arles
    Count of Arles - comte d'Arles - comes arelatensis
    Archbishop of Arles - archevêque d'Arles - archiepiscopus arelatensis

    Avignon/Marquisat de Provence
    Marquess of Provence - marquis de Provence - marchio provincie
    Count of Forcalquier - comte de Forcalquier - comes fortiscalquerii/comes forcalcariensis
    Bishop of Avignon - évêque d'Avignon - episcopus avinionensis
    Prince of Orange - Prince d'Orange - princeps aurasicensis

    Nice/Niçois
    Viscount of Nice - vicomte de Nice - vicecomes niciensis

    Vienne/Viennois
    Count of Vienne - comte de Viennois - comes viennensis
    Archbishop of Vienne - archevêque de Vienne - archiepiscopus viennensis
    comes Diensis

    Grenoble/Grésivaudan (Dauphiné)
    Count of Albon - comte d'Albon/dauphin de Viennois - comes albionis/delphinus viennensis
    Bishop of Grenoble - évêque de Grenoble - episcopus gratianopolitanensis

    Moutiers/Savoie
    Count of Savoie - comte de Savoie - comes sabaudie
    Bishop of Maurienne - évêque de Maurienne - episcopus morianensis
    Bishop of Tarentaise


    Lyon/Lyonnais
    Archbishop of Lyon - arch. de Lyon - archiepiscopus Lugdunensis
    Count of Lyon & Forez - comte de Lyonnais et Forez - comes lugdunensis et for(isi)ensis

    Genève/Genevois
    Count of Geneva - comte de Genevois - comes gebennensis
    Bishop of Geneva - évêque de Genève - episcopus gebennensis

    Lausanne/Vaud
    Bishop of Lausanne - év. de Lausanne - episcopus lausannensis

    Sion/Valais
    Bishop of Sion - év. de Sion - episcopus sedunensis

    Besançon/Comté de Bourgogne
    Count of Mâcon - comte de Mâcon - comes matisconensis
    Archbishop of Besançon - arch. de Besançon - archiepiscopus bisuntinensis


    5. Description

    II. Units
    Last edited by Solo; 09-28-2007 at 13:50.


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