Tumurids?

[boastj]

Anybody know who the Tumurids where?

[Doug-Thompson]

The tribes that followed Timur, a.k.a. Timur the Lame, a.k.a. Tamerlame.

[Subedei]

Timur claimed to have roots down to Ghengis Khan. Most of his followers were turkish tribes though. He was a hazzle to the Ottoman Empire and the Near and Middle east. His followers could not keep the vast lands this guy conquered.

[Favre]

He faked all his "documents" to make it look like he was related to ghenghis khan, He was just a nobody that wanted to sieze power of the empire, and he did that quite nicely :D

[doc_bean]

His empire was bigger than that of the mongols at the end of the Genghis' reign.

[Orda Khan]

His empire was bigger than that of the mongols at the end of the Genghis' reign.

Incorrect.
Timur's biggest failing was his inability with administration, he was forever re-treading old ground. A great general, yes but little else

......Orda

[TB666]

Was Timur that guy that did something with skulls ??

[Orda Khan]

Was Timur that guy that did something with skulls ??

Yep, that's the guy. Far more brutal than the Mongols ever were

.....Orda

[TB666]

What was it that he did ??
I can't remember and Wiki doesn't say anything.

[Sykotyk Rampage]

http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/artl/timur.shtml

Here is a quick overview of Tamerlane.

[Orda Khan]

What was it that he did ??
I can't remember and Wiki doesn't say anything.

The tower of skulls, 'cementing' live victims into foundations, he was a particularly nasty, cruel person.
Though he claimed descent from Chingis Khan this was, as mentioned already, a means to establish his position. He was lame due to the arrow that he received in his right leg, his right arm was also affected as another arrow hit him, IIRC, in his wrist. Militarily he was very gifted, his armies were extremely disciplined. He placed 'puppet' Khans in power but he pulled the strings. Toqtamish of the White Horde was one of these. He defeated the Golden Horde, uniting both (White and Golden) and with his confidence brimming, started marching into Timurid territory. He retreated when Timur mobilised a huge army to confront him. There was a second attempt but this time Timur decided to teach Toqtamish a lesson for his affrontary. The Timurids were drawn into the wintry steppes and came close to failure but luck was on their side. A Mongol straggler was captured and Timur learned of Toqtamish's position. The Mongol army managed to break the Timurid left flank but inevitably Timur's greater numbers won the day. Timur went on to sack Sarai

......Orda

[Ibn Munqidh]

He also defeated and Killed Sultan Bayezid, of the Ottoman dynasty. Plunging Anatolia into years of chaos.

[Doug-Thompson]

Re: Orda's point about how Timur was a talented general with no administrative skill.

IIRC, Dupuy's "Encyclopedia of Millitary History" calls Timur's invasion of India the most serious example of totally pointless destruction in history. Even the looting wasn't carried out in an efficient fashion.

[Dead Moroz]

First of all, Tumurids are not tribe. They are descendants and heirs of emir Timur. The article that Sykotyk Rampage give link to describes him well enough. Except some details.

He (and his descendants) was not Mongol in common meaning of this term. He could be quite far descendant of Mongols came into interfluve of rivers Syrdarya and Amudarya in XIII century. But he also could belong to some Turkic nation that inhabited in this land since early Dark Ages. His appearance (reconstructed by Gerasimov) was mix of Asian and European features (btw, he has red hair). And for sure he was not descendant of Chingiz-khan - because all his life he was just emir (like prime minister in modern terms) of his state; the real legal rulers were real descendants of Chingiz.

The opinion about his cruelty is doubtful. We know about it only from chronicles of his numerous enemies. So this information could be just written rumors or even deliberate falsehood. There is no any archeological remains of described towers of skulls, etc. Like Mongols in XIII century Timur could also spread these rumors himself to demoralize his rivals.

Orda Khan wrote that Timur was just great general but nothing more. It's not true. Timur was good administrator too. He developed trade, built roads, established taxes depending on fertility of plot, etc. He also built (not himself, of course) lots of beautiful buildings in Samarkand that still are brilliant part of world heritage.

This is map of Timur's empire (sorry, it's in Russian). Orange is his state in 1405, pink is territories gained after victory over Ottomans in 1402. Directions and dates of campaigns are understandable without translation (I hope). "Flames" are sites of rebellions.

[Orda Khan]

He did indeed build some beautiful buildings but there is far more to administration than that. He was inefficient because he was almost constantly putting down rebels 're-treading old ground' and any administration he did set up did not last long. His conquests were mainly driven by loot, he ruined trade and has been called 'the greatest bandit of all time'.
He claimed Mongol descent for authority's sake but the truth is he was nowhere near the ruler he tried to emulate

......Orda

[doc_bean]

Incorrect.
Timur's biggest failing was his inability with administration, he was forever re-treading old ground. A great general, yes but little else

......Orda

Okay, maybe it wasn't much of an empire, but he did, at least in theory, control more land than Genghis.

[Doug-Thompson]

Hmmm. Just looking at the map, Timur's empire might have been more populous than Genghis Khan's, but it doesn't appear anywhere near the same size. Granted, much of the Khan's empire when he died was steppe, but it stretched from the Caspian Sea to the Pacific, and included large chunks of North China.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
The descendants of Timur proved to be relatively stable and highly civilized kingdoms in Turkestan, Afghanistan (Herat was one of the greatest cities of the world in Timurids' time) and in India (Babur and his house). Timur himself was a fierce and cruel warrior against his enemies and the conquered but at times he knew how to gain people, especially scholars and merchantmen, too. Although there's no point in denying what he was, it should be kept in mind that his brutal ways were much exaggarated by his rivals, especially the Ottomans. (The Turkestani and Iranian writers almost always cite him with praise.)

As for his origin, his tribe was a long Turkicized Mongol one. He and his immediate descendants practiced Genghis' Law for a long time, gradually blending it with Islamic Law and others. His claim to Genghis' descent came in relatively later ages; in his earlier years (and well into his high period so to speak) he styled himself merely as the "steward" of some figurehead Genghis descendant. That seems to be crucial to establish his rule among numberless rivals. The details (and sources) escape me now but he either remved the figurehead or produced an apparently maternal descent from Genghis after his demise.

His military capabilities are beyond question. +9 command +9 dread!
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[Orda Khan]

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The details (and sources) escape me now but he either remved the figurehead or produced an apparently maternal descent from Genghis after his demise.
.

Toqtamish is an example of one such figurehead. He challenged Urus (White Horde Khan) but his early military forays were pretty poor and it was to Timur that he appealed for assistance. He finally deposed Temur Malik (who was by then in power) in 1377. After the Mongol defeat at Kulikovo field, their leader, Mamai was regrouping for a counter attack. Toqtamish saw his opportunity and utterly defeated Mamai near the Kalka river, thus combining both White and Golden Hordes with him as overall ruler. Two years later he reversed the Muscovite victory and was enjoying his new found military success to the point where he turned his attention towards his 'maker', Timur.
Timur was also responsible for resettling Chagadaid Mongols in conquered areas, thereby breaking up their strength should they attempt to consolidate in their steppe homeland

.....Orda

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Found Timur's figureheads: Sü-yurgutmysh* (1370-1388) and his son Mahmud (1388-1402). Timur styled himself an "emir" in their command.

* he who managed (provided) order

Source: Maragalı Abdülkadir, Murat Bardakçı, Pan Yayıncılık, Istanbul 1986 (footnote 10 to Timur's commandment regarding Abdulkadir, p.162)
.

[Bob the Insane]

Isn't there some legend/curse about distrubing his tomb?

And didn't some historians do just that shortly before WW1?

Or am I remembering completely the wrong thing?

[Subedei]

Isn't there some legend/curse about distrubing his tomb?

And didn't some historians do just that shortly before WW1?

Or am I remembering completely the wrong thing?

That was WWII i think. The day Russian historians/archeologists opened his grave, was the same exact day Hitler invaded Russia...They said it on TV, don`t know, maybe it is the truth...evilevil Tamerlan that is....

[Doug-Thompson]

Check it out on the curse. It's under the heading "Exhumation."

[Furious Mental]

What will the Timurid army be like then? I'm guessing lots of horse archers.

[Mithrandir]

Moved to history dojo.

[Steppe Merc]

He faked all his "documents" to make it look like he was related to ghenghis khan, He was just a nobody that wanted to sieze power of the empire, and he did that quite nicely :D

"Timur did not rely much on this genealogy, however: he ruled through puppet khans of Chinggis' line while merely styling himself the "Great Emir". Warriors of the Steppe by Erik Hildinger, pg 171.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

.
...he styled himself merely as the "steward" of some figurehead Genghis descendant. That seems to be crucial to establish his rule among numberless rivals....
.

.
Found Timur's figureheads: Sü-yurgutmysh* (1370-1388) and his son Mahmud (1388-1402). Timur styled himself an "emir" in their command.

* he who managed (provided) order

Source: Maragalı Abdülkadir, Murat Bardakçı, Pan Yayıncılık, Istanbul 1986 (footnote 10 to Timur's commandment regarding Abdulkadir, p.162)
.

Hmm... Multi-quote still has problems I see.
.

[wumpus]

I don't know if this is the right thread for my problem. ItThis is the situation: I played Spanish on M2TW, conquered all provinces in Iberia except Granada, allied to the Almohads (who at present hold Granada), occupy Britany and half of Britain (London and Wales) and currently beseiging Notingham. Also, because of a Crusade, I took all lands from Cairo to Jerusalem to Trebizond, and ended up being allied with the Mongols (!) who currently occupy Moscow and nearby lands. Am currently at war with England, France (although the French are also at war with the English), Denmark (although the Danes are not allied to the English), the Turks, and the Timurids who invaded my Antioch and now they occupy Antioch, intending to make it their home. Timurid armies were humongous--six full stacks that stick next to each other. Attack one and the rest are at hand as reinforcements. My tactic to deal with them before now: let the Timurid armies pass through without confrontation--and it worked, up to a point. I saved a lot of my smallish armies. But now they intend to stay in Antioch. I need to kick them out of Antioch, or there would be no territorial connection between the Jerusalem-Cairo axis and Trebizond. Worse, my King resides in Jerusalem and in danger of getting overran if the Timurids do move their armies again.
Help!! Can anybody offer any suggestions on what strategy should I do next? At present, I put my Spanish M2TW in the Save bin, and start a Crusades campaign to cool my smoking brains.
Hawooh.

[master of the puppets]

You ain't in Kansas anymore Wumpus. Back out slowly and don't make any sudden moves, they may just leave you alone.

[wumpus]

Where is Kansas? Is it beside Kuli-Kuli?
Like I said, I'm not sure if this is the right thread for it but I'm asking help real nice--if you could direct me to the right channel. Or maybe the Timurids (not Tumurids!) are just too heavy an opponent for your troops? But anyway, tell me--which is the right way to get to the thread where I could find saner primates to continue communicating to??
HAWOOH!