Materia Celtica

[cmacq]

Perhaps, the need to import was all due, to a mighty powerful thirst?

[paullus]

nah not the suebian knot, the braided plaits worn off the side or top of the head, usually along with a lot of long hair. its in lots of pictures of celts, but i'm not sure i've ever seen the braided plait in any ancient depictions of celts. so i was wondering if anyone who worked more directly with them might know a bit more about the who, when, where of braided plaits.

[Redshank]

"Patron of winemaking" ? Didn't the Celts import their wine from the Med though ? IIRC Roman merchants were at times amazed at the going rate of even one amphora...

Yes, at first, but contact with Rome eventually led to cultivation of grapes (and olives oddly enough) in the Po Valley & the South of France ; proven by wine presses found near Provence.


( http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/a...en/index2.html - Click on Artisans & Farmers and then Agriculture. )

[Elmetiacos]

Yes, at first, but contact with Rome eventually led to cultivation of grapes (and olives oddly enough) in the Po Valley & the South of France ; proven by wine presses found near Provence.

Sucellos and his partner Nantosuelta are definitely associated with wine; both are depicted with barrels and vats, sometimes pouring liquids out of vessels, sometimes holding bunches of grapes. Sucellos' hammer is more of a rounded wooden mallet, not at all like a weapon.

http://rv.mondespersistants.com/imag...1071254833.jpg

[cmacq]

nah not the suebian knot, the braided plaits worn off the side or top of the head, usually along with a lot of long hair. its in lots of pictures of celts, but i'm not sure i've ever seen the braided plait in any ancient depictions of celts. so i was wondering if anyone who worked more directly with them might know a bit more about the who, when, where of braided plaits.

Right, I've done a search and can't find this feature associated with any ancient group recorded as Celt. However, this type of head dressing was indeed documented among ancient Deutschesque speakers? Now, during the early Medieval Period the plait, as an artistic motif, was very commonly found in Ireland, Scotland, Saxon England, and Scandinavia. Still, in this setting I'm not sure it was used as a head dressing, and technically I'm not at all positive one would call these cultural groupings Celt, as the term was initially used.

[Elmetiacos]

Towards a Voicemod Revision

This is my final offering, I think. It's a copy of an old post on the Celtic voicemod with Gaulish replacing the current version. The current vocalisations are in grey. At the end is a possible to probable pronunciation guide for an English speaker. The Gaulish is in italics. If the phrasing is unusual or contains something new I've added a translation at the end. I used to think -atu and -antu were imperatives in Gaulish, but now this has been corrected - see comments below! Many other words are nouns in the dative, because the troops are moving into a particular formation.

General - Group State (Uses General's voice, clear annunciation, rythmic)
create group = LOK-en, o-MOS! – LOK-en, im-US-os! – Oond! x3 (very fast) Slouge! slow-geh
dismiss group = LOK-en, nee-o-mos-HA! darnetis! darr-NETT-iss
drop equipment = Nee-pow-no-HA! – Pow-no-am-nee-HA! Cingetûs, druxtetis! Keen-GET-oose, drrookh-TEH-tiss
cavalry, first three lines = Ep-OS, tro nan-EE-dum! Cintos, Allios, Tritos Epos Keen toce, ally oce, trree toce eppoce
cavalry screen = Ep-OS, frun-OON! Ambitute! Am-bee TOO-teh
column formation = LOK-en, eg-LEE-hum-ah! Slougu Vedilon! Slow-goo wheddy-lone ("departing host")
double line = LOK-en, doo-eg-LAN! Dua nêð! Doo-a nates
infantry, first three lines = NEE-tom, tro nan-EE-dum! Cintos, allios, tritos! keen toce, ally oce, trree toce ("1st, 2nd, 3rd")
missile-troops/skirmishers, first three lines = Am-BOO, tro nan-EE-dum! Cintos, allios, tritos! keen toce, ally oce, trree toce
single line = LOK-en, eg-LAN! Nagrondu! na GRRON-doo
sorted double line = LOK-en, doo-eg-LAN prop-OS! Esacogrondobo! ess-ah-koe-grrond-oboe
sorted single line = LOK-en, eg-LAN prop-OS! Esacogrondu! ess-ah-koe-grron-doo ("salmon ridge")
units, attack! = Am-EE-no, GAL-ah! - LOK-en, am-EE-no! - Bazb, KELT-oy! Cato! KAH-toe : Boude! BOH-deh
units, charge! = Hee-BO-na-tay! - Bazb! x3 (very fast) – Am-OO-not, LOK-en! Rextu! Rekh-too
units, halt! = AR-ma! - DEE-seet! – HAR-olt! Sedietis! seddy EH-tiss
missiles, attack! = Am-BOO, am-EE-no! Lancetis! lan-KEH-tiss
missiles, attack quickly! = Am-BOO, am-EE-no haz-RA! Rextu! Tabetis! rekh-too tab-EH-tiss
units, move = LOK-en, ab-EE-do! - GAL-ah, AB-an! Itamo! it-AH-moe
move quickly = LOK-en, ab-EE-do haz-RA! - GAL-ah, AB-an haz-RA! - KELT-oy, am-RO haz-RA! Retetis! rret-EH-tiss
rally: come back cowards! = An-TOO sat BAK-or! - GAL-ah! U-ban! X3 Cingetûs drôtus! Nasria! Keen-GET-oose droh-tuss! Nass-rria ("Brave warriors! O shame!")
retreat = Fay-OO, LOK-en! – GAL-ah, roy-TAM-bor! Magessi tuande! ma guessy too-AND-eh ("come you from the field")
group select (units!) = ER-oo! – NEE-tom day GAL-ah! Corie! koh-rree-eh
group select (cavalry) = Ep-OS! Marcage! marrk AGG-eh
select engines = Mak-AN-na! Agetiûs! ah-get-EE-oose! ("engines" - (not my) neologism)
group select infantry = NEE-tom! Nêdê neh-deh
group select missiles = Am-BOS! Nêdê neh-deh
cantabrian circle off (standard formation) = Ep-OS, fal-NOM-os! Adesentis! Addeh-sentis ("prepare again" - generic command for a few "offs" below)
cantabrian circle on = Ep-OS, en-KIRK-al-os! Celcintiu! kell-kinty-oo ("to the ?circuit")
fire at will off (cease fire) = Ab-STON-an, am-BOO! Adesantu! Addeh-santoo
fire at will on = Am-BOO, fant-fahm-GO! Tabontis! tab-ON-tiss
flaming off = Nee-flan-HA, am-BOO! Cingedie, desbadetis! keen-ghed-yeh, dess-bad-EH-tiss
flaming on = Flan, am-BOO! Condontis! cone DOHN tiss
loose formation = RE-clan-do! Satiai! satty-aye
close formation = KAY-clan-do! Pêslatu! Peh-slattoo
guard off = Off-EE-nayt, LOK-en! – LOK-en, ne-ROYM-ha! Adesentis! Addeh-sentis
guard on = LOK-en, roym! Anegetis! anneg eh-tiss
phalanx off = Nee-guy-NO-bar-ee-ha Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
phalanx on = Guy-NO-bar-ee Côglu Gêson koh-glue geh-sonn
skirmish off = Ne-am-BOO-ek-ta-ha Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
skirmish on = Am-BOO-ek-ta Bitaminis buet-id bee-ta-MEEN-eece boo-ett-eed ("May it be a swarm of bees"... also name of a unit; do I have too many bees here?)
testudo off = SKAM-bah! Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
testudo on = SKAM-hee-dan-en! Bliscon desentis bliss cone dess-EN-tiss ("prepare shell")
warcry off = Nee-ay-OL-oh-ha! Adesentis! Addeh-sentiss
warcry on = Ay-OL-oh! x3 Iolucus! yo luke uss [is this still used?]
wedge off = Ed-EK-um! Adesentis! addeh-sentiss
wedge on = Ed-EK-op-os! Cestai! kest aye

Individual (Uses 'casual' voice, treat hyphens only as guides to where the syllables are)
celebrate - victory is ours = An-NO-bar-ee-tay! x3 - GAL-ah ek-ROO-mah TOO-tat-os! - YA-mo! x3 - (Unintelligible singing) Segos tovonoxtion! Say-goss toe whoe nokh-tee-own ("Triumph of gods and men")
charge = (Unintelligible roar/shout) - WOH-loh-loh! x3 (drag out the final 'loh') - Ay-EE bazb! (drag out the 'ee') Retu! rret-ooooooh!
confirm = Esh-AH, may rix! – Esh-AH, may GOB-rim! – AG-wee! Sô! so : Sô bietu so bee-eh-too
retreat = FAR-oom! x3 - Ell-OK-an-am! x3 Vai! why!
taunts = YA-toh! - May too DAN-em bazb! - ANG-her mom! Attivire! atty-whee-rreh! ("Cowards!") Scrisu-in-mi! skriss-oo-in-mee ("I spit on him!") Dipennu-mi-io velor! dee-pen-OO-mee yo whellorr ("I want to cut off some heads!")

Unit (Uses 'casual' voice, treat hyphens only as guides to where the syllables are)
attack = Am-EE-no! Cato! KAH-toe
attack fast = Bazb! x3 - Am-EE-no, haz-RA! Cogo! Cato! ko-go! KAH-toe
x-completed orders = May rix, am-NEE-oo-koo! - May GOB-rim, am-NEE-at-oo! Sô declam-so, tigerne. so deck lam-so tee-gairr-neh ("So we have fixed it, my lord"??)
x-error = NEE-ha, may rix, ess ne-POS-hal-ah-ha! Ne-s beru nace berroo
x-generic = Rix? – GOB-rim? – ROO-rem? Raime? rye meh? : Tigerne? tee-GHER-neh? : Buet pe? boo ett peh?
halt = Ne-AM-bla-ha! – Seert! Sedos-nis SAY-dose neice
ladder attack (not close to the wall yet) = Ag-nom-NEE-mah - Sha-EM-bah Baramu bah-RAH-moo
ladder drop = ER-om SKAL-hay Druxtu drookh-too
ladder lift up (near the walls, about to attack) = Lev-am-TEE-os Vo! Vo! woe! woe!
ladder use (to "seize upon", not to attack with) = Pow-NO-am SKAL-hay Regetu regg-ett-oo
missile aim = Roh-HEM! ospatu! oh-SPAH-too ("eye" made into a verb)
missile fire = Ee-OM-ay, am-BOO! Rêti'! REH-ti ("[stones/arrows etc.] free")
missile move into range = Am-BOO, as-EMB-lah! - Am-BOO, ban! Cusate koo-sah-teh
missile move into range quickly = Am-BOO, as-EMB-lah haz-RA! - Am-BOO, ban haz-RA! Cusate! koo-sah-teh
missile ready = Ash-EE! Desantlos... deh-SANT-loce...
move = Ab-EE-do! – AB-an! Retamo! rrett-a-mo!
move quickly = Ab-EE-do haz-RA! - AB-an haz-RA! - FAR-oom! Retamo! rret-a-mo
rally = U-ban, may KIM-ros! x3 Comrogi! kom-rogue-ee
ram attack (when ram is not yet close to the wall) = Krum-BA-ram, am-EE-no barsamo! barr-sammo
ram drop = Ne-pow-NO-am-ha krum-BA-ram Bûstin druxtu BOO-stin drookh-too
x-ramming = Krum-BA-na Brist! Brist! Brist! (shortened form of "break" as a sort of chant...)
ram start (when ram is already below the wall, about to attack) = Krum-BA-taw-am! x3 Darnaitos Buetid! darr-night-oce boo-ett-id ("it should be broken up!")
ram use (to "man", not to attack with) = Pow-NO-am krum-BA! Crannos! krannose
retreat = REE-sed! - FAR-oom! x3 Comretu-mi! comb-rett-oo-mee ("I run with you")
siegetower attack = Tur, am-EE-no! Celeta! Ke-LET-ah (*kel-et- "that which towers above")
siegetower drop = Ne-pow-NO-am-ha tur! Celetai! Keh-LET-aye
siegetower enter = As-KEND-an tur! Celetia! Keh-let-EE-a
siegetower use/fill (to "man", not climb into) = Pow-NO-am tur! Regetu! rregg-ETT-oo
tunnel dig = Saff Clôdetis kloh-DEH-tiss
tunnel exit = Ne-SAFF-ha exs, exs! ekhs, ekhs
tunnel use (only to fill it up, not yet attacking) = Ar-ROO-bahr saff-TOON Clôdetis kloh-DEH-tiss
x-under attack = En-KUR-mos! - Al-FAT-od-os! Nâmantes! NAH-man-tess

Unit State (Uses 'casual' voice, treat hyphens only as guides to where the syllables are)
*cantabrian circle off (standard formation) = Fal-NOM-os-an! Lavero'*. La-wherr-oh
*cantabrian circle on = En-KIRK-al-os-an! Celcinte. Kel-KIN-teh
*fire at will off (cease fire) = Ne-FAHM-en-ha-an! Tabotin desamo. ta-BOH-teen dess-AH-mo
*fire at will on = Fant-FAHM-go-an! Tabos-nis tabbose-neice
*flaming off = Nee-FLAN-ha-an! Desbados. dess-BAH-doce
*flaming on = FLAN-an! Loscetici. Loce-keh-TEEK-ee
*loose formation = RE-clan-do-an! Lôbionni. LOH-bee-OH-nee (*leu-bw-ijo- "become loose"?)
*close formation = KAY-clan-do-an! Pêslati. PEH-SLAH-tee
*guard off = Off-EE-nayt-an! – Ne-ROYM-ha-an! Nêto. NEH-toe
*guard on = ROYM-an! Anegam-nis. Ann-EGG-am-niss
*phalanx off = Nee-guy-no-bar-EE-ha-an Barcen uo'! BARR-ken WOE ("spear hafts up")
*phalanx on = Guy-no-bar-EE-an Côglu. KOH-glue
*skirmish off = Am-BOO, en ot-RO-mor Sedemos-nis Sed-EH-moce neice
*skirmish on = Am-BOO, reg-MUR Ambi' AM-be
*testudo off = SKAM-bah-an! [needed? Does any Gaulish speaking unit form a testudo?]
*testudo on = SKAM-hee-dan-an! [needed?]
*warcry off = Nee-ay-OL-oh-ha-an! [needed?]
*warcry on = (The sound of taunts/shouts/cries, with crowd singing) [needed?]
*wedge off = Ed-EK-um-an! Epûs dessete. EP-oose dess-EH-teh ("horses ?readied")
*wedge on = Ed-EK-op-os-an! Cestia. Kess-TEE-ah

*in later Gaulish we find more and more inscriptions with proper endings missing. *lavero is meant to be a sort of informal or abbreviated form - similar to 'nuff.

[blitzkrieg80]

that is some impressive work- no small amount of time spent there seriously, awesome job!

atu and -antu are imperatives in Gaulish.

Are you sure those aren't 3rd Person imperatives? Indo-Euro (West var.) 3rd Person imperatives are most likely: *-ōtō+u / *-ontō+u . I accidently used the same when i first translated for the voice mod, because confusingly, it seems that 2nd person plural is lost in time somewhat (only exists in OE, ON, OHG because the speakers direcly borrowed from other forms in the paradigm) so a lot of sources omit it, even though the 3rd person imperative isn't much of an imperative at all... 3rd person imperative has disappeared in much of modern language = 'one should blah...' 'let's blah..' versus 2nd person 'do!'

IE *-e : 2nd person singular imperative
*-ete? : 2nd person plural imperative (similar to 2nd person plural present indicative as in Gothic paradigm)

[Tiberius Nero]

I agree, they do look like 3rd person imperatives (take the Latin Fut. Imp. endings for singular and plural respectively: -to and -nto and the Greek -tō and -ntōn).

[Elmetiacos]

Aargh! I'll have to check again... years and years ago, I did some research into primitive Irish and Brythonic and reckoned the 2nd person imperatives were going to be -ate. Then something I saw on the Continental Celtic list said they were -atu or -antu... now I'm worried...

EDIT - I found on Christopher Gwinn's website (he runs the above list) that the 2nd pers. plu. imperative was probably -etis. I can't find the link or the site for atu-/antu- now at all. Blitzkrieg, Tiberius Nero, thanks for spotting the incongruity. I'll amend the list accordingly.

[Elmetiacos]

The mulitpurpose barbarian (Celtic) hero shrine renamed and described according to what's being discussed on the Gaesatae thread.

Stabas Pennocavaron ("Pillar of the heads of heroes")
or
Stabas Cavaropennon ("Pillar of heroic heads")
Column of Heroes' Heads

From the earliest times, the Celtic peoples would errect a sort of war memorial to those who had died bravely in battle. This would be a pillar or portico with a series of niches in which would be placed the heads of the fallen. In some cases, actual heads or skulls were set in place, in others carvings in their likeness and in others abstract heads were simply carved into a pillar. It was perhaps hoped that something of the spirits of these warriors would remain to guard and inspire succeeding generations.

I don't like the root *staba- for a column or pillar, but I can't find a better one. e-DIL gives about 10 words for "pillar" in Old or Middle Irish, but there doesn't seem to be a common Celtic root for the good ones.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

But it's *not* a pillar shrine.

[Elmetiacos]

Ribemont-sur-Ancre isn't, no, but that's not the whole of what's being discussed. Entremont http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/a..._archi_san.htm is an example of heads drawn on pillars and other stuff. As I said, I don't like the *staba for "pillar" and would like to use something different, pillar-ish or otherwise. The Irish word lía can mean a column or just a stone in general, but I can't find the root.

EDIT - MacBain suggests *leuink- for a stone or a slab... this could give Levinxs Pennocavaron or Levinxs Cavaropennon.

[Elmetiacos]

A small addition - earlier versions of Welsh names from the Mabinogion. This isn't really a good source since most of the names were originally gods and goddesses and many of the names that aren't are not names at all (someone had 3 daughters whose names mean Bad, Worse and Worst of All, for instance) or else are Latin or borrowed from Irish. There are just a handful:
Male Carantorixs Clutonos Cunonos Maglocunos Matiacos Neitonos Tigernonos Valocos
Female Brannavinda Vindoliante

[blitzkrieg80]

I am proposing some province / settlement / rebel name changes to make the names more accurate to their self-names, which of course means de-latinization in some cases. I am curious as to what you guys think since you have proposed some very valid and similar changes... realize vocabulary choices might be different but if you can justify a superior term which portrays the same or how a term doesn't imply what it should, fill me in. I am an amateur on Celtic language but it DOES follow many IE practices and so I have used that, looking at various resources online which state Celtic declension, especially Gaulish. If you have any online links/sources you think I might be interested in, please post them. I am wanting some feedback so please BRING IT ON... realize I am not the Celtic authority in the group but I am helping to make the map as accurate as possible before things get set in stone down the line.

Do we have a timeline for w and v merging? or is it just best to use [v] as convetion? also is there a nasal loss such as with dunom > dunon or is it merely Greek trascription error? i>j because io is not a correct dipthong, right?

fyi- map and settlement can't have diacritics or long vowel marks...

KEY:
(old province name) => new province name,
(old settlement name) => new settlement name,
[rebel tribe name]

possible new province near Thuringia
1. Erkunios Mrogis, ‘Hercynian Borderland’
Bikurgion, possibly ‘Binding-around’ {doesn’t matter [k]<[c], jom<[ion]=[ia]}
[Wolkas] 'hawks/wolves' (fem.pl.a-stem) (anybody know of names of other Celtic tribes in this area at this time?)

2. (Coutinoe) => Mrogis Isarnomonion 'Borderland of the Iron/Ore-mountains' (Cotinin had famous Iron-mines mentioned by tacitus and this is even the supposed point of contact for Germanic borrowing of the term, nonetheless nearby similar name...or is Isarnodori[actual location referenced] better? is dori<oak?)
(Lucarottea) => Lukorixtus, from Leukaristos/Laugaricio 'Bright-form'
(Cotini) => [Kotinoi] 'ones who use huts' (/in/ diminuative + fem.pl.o-stem)

3. (Mrog Actagone) => Mrogis Argduni 'Borderland of the Holy/Shining Fortress' (this interestingly matches Glauberg's abundance of religious material and importance for the area
(Arctaunon) => Argdunon
(Hattoz) => [Elwitjoi] < (P)elu-(p)eyh2t(u)-j-i; Iya>i: 'those of land of riches' (masc.pl.o-stem)

4. (Eravacouw) => Arawa
(Ak-Ink) => Au~Inkseti (au(river, w/dropped [q/kw]; Iya>i) 'suffices' reduplicated subjunctive) evidence: http://www.reference-global.com/doi/.../ZCPH.2005.133 )
(Eravisci) => [Arawiskoi] 'those who use agriculture/plow on the river' (masc.pl.o-stem)

5. (Scorcouw) => Mrogis Skordous 'Borderland of the Skordus' (doesn't matter if the chicken or the egg right, since they are already there?)
(Singidunum) => Singidunon
(Scordisci) => [Skordiskoi]

[Elmetiacos]

First, I suppose we need to settle on an orthography for Celtic names. We can pick the way the Gauls actually wrote things themselves, which would mean /w/ would be rendered as u (it would actually have been V but that makes things look too Latin and because most people are not as familiar with Gaulish as with Latin it will make people tend to pronounce it as a labio-dental) /k/ as c and /j/ as i. Or ignore the Gauls and create a phonetic rendition - the obvious problem with which is that we're not 100% sure how the words were pronounced, plus a sprinkling of Js somehow makes things look all Viking... note that in the rest of this thread, I didn't bother much and mixed up Vs and Us all the time.*

1. Mrogis Erkunjom is nothing to do with oaks (oak is *derwa- or *daru-); the Herc-/Ork- Latin/Greek split suggests to me that the forest is based on that *φorko- > orc- "piglets" root we touched on earlier. But what's the suffix and what stem does this give us? It's a total guess. The name could be Mrogis (H)Orcunon, Mrogis (H)Orcunion, Mrogis (H)Orcunanom or Mrogis (H)Orcunuon (using the Gaulish spelling option) I don't follow Bikurgjom; "binding around" might be *ambilexca-

2. Mrogis Sarnomonion - *isarno- is the root for "iron" but in compounds the initial i- disappears, so I read somewhere recently. Gen. pl. of an o-stem *monio- is -n. What's "Lucarottea" supposed to be? I don't have a map in front of me at the moment. Is it Lutetia, *Locateci, or something else? I think Cotini is Cotini, or Cotinoi, depending whether earlier or later Gaulish - sound shifts happened during the EB period.

3. Sorry, I don't know where this is, so I can't comment.

4. Ak-Ink - Aquincum. There was a discussion on the Continental Celtic group before I arrived about inscriptions at Aquincum and the Eravisci and the general consensus was that they weren't Celts at all; possibly Germanic (A god Teutanos may be Þiudanaz) or Illyrian. "Ak-Ink" is still the work of ill-informed Victorian imagination, though, so should be changed.

5. I was unable to explain *Singidunon either, unless it's a corruption of Sindodunon ("river fortress")


*Celtiberian and Primitive Irish weren't usually written using the Latin alphabet - it's usual to render Celtiberian /k/ as K. Primitive Irish tends to be rendered with C for /k/ and Q for /kw/ because the mediaeval Ogham glosses do that.

[blitzkrieg80]

the actual Gallic iscription for the Hercynia silva is Erkunios Drumos which is the source of OHG Fergunna and related to Perkun the Baltic god... related to Italic word Quercus for 'oak'... notice the name has oaks as a separate word so the Erkunios is 'mountain' if not more abstract concerning Mother Earth... just the same, the Fergunna references the Mittelgebirge and the Harz mountains is thought to be taken from the same name, thus why i am using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest

modern Trencin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tren%C4%8D%C3%ADn where Ptolemy references Leukaristos... dunnno where the original Lucarottea came from but the similarity and location makes me believe this is location the source of the name used

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lemy/2/10.html

also Ptolemy is the reference for Bikugion near the Steinsburg oppida, which is why i use that name... not much else to go on

so you think /i/ is better than /j/ because of Germanic implication? would /y/ be better?

how does /m/ -> /n/ ? is there a nasal loss rule i am not seeing between Gaulish and Proto-Celtic? other sources agree, although many Gaulish sources are in fact Greek alphabet and declension in origin and thus use the Greek naming system, so as you say, how do we recreate, second-guessing bad Greek orthography which is superior to nothing, or take it as it comes? i am really unsure which direction to go..

*if you check out that link for Ak-Ink it gives a very plausible linguistic account... otherwise, i have found 0 real sources besides wikipedia rip-offs that Ak-Ink has even been found as a name... as you say, it's assumed, yet where is the literary or physical evidence? but regardless, if you check out that linguistic article, it shows that there could easily have been a subjunctive formation at the root of Aquincum whether the Latin gave 2 cents or not

so we have evidence for o-stem plural oi>i by 3rd century? i cant find any direct evidence

why does Isarno lose the i? Isarnodori, an actual place name doesn't lose it... there are other examples such as personal names without the loss as well... now i am not saying you're wrong, but i'd like to know what rule that is before i apply it.

so are you saying that n-stem nouns become 'occlusive' as the wikipedia Gaulish article says, which means nothing to me at first, but that means that it loses its special declension and falls into o-stems as you say?

[Elmetiacos]

the actual Gallic iscription for the Hercynia silva is Erkunios Drumos which is the source of OHG Fergunna and related to Perkun the Baltic god... related to Italic word Quercus for 'oak'... notice the name has oaks as a separate word so the Erkunios is 'mountain' if not more abstract concerning Mother Earth... just the same, the Fergunna references the Mittelgebirge and the Harz mountains is thought to be taken from the same name, thus why i am using it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercynian_Forest

Ah, I see what you mean now. There's a Hercuniates tribe in the same region - is the locale named after them, or vice versa?

modern Trencin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tren%C4%8D%C3%ADn where Ptolemy references Leukaristos... dunnno where the original Lucarottea came from but the similarity and location makes me believe this is location the source of the name used

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...lemy/2/10.html

also Ptolemy is the reference for Bikugion near the Steinsburg oppida, which is why i use that name... not much else to go on

I'm not sure whether the name is Celtic or Greek - λευκός is "white" in Greek as well. The Roman name is Laugaritio. Helpful or not? If the name is Celtic, it would probably be something to do with *lougra- meaning "moon" with one of those could-be-anything IE -t suffixes. Or it could be an "Old European" (or not) -eia place. Hmm.

so you think /i/ is better than /j/ because of Germanic implication? would /y/ be better?

Yes; put a J in and it just looks Germanic, somehow. Or it does to me. Y would be an alternative if you want to avoid I.

how does /m/ -> /n/ ? is there a nasal loss rule i am not seeing between Gaulish and Proto-Celtic? other sources agree, although many Gaulish sources are in fact Greek alphabet and declension in origin and thus use the Greek naming system, so as you say, how do we recreate, second-guessing bad Greek orthography which is superior to nothing, or take it as it comes? i am really unsure which direction to go..

I don't know why Gaulish has -n endings; it just does. It's not a question of bad Greek spelling; Cisalpine Gaulish ("Lepontic"?) atom teuoxtonion. Celtiberian, though, kept the -m endings.

*if you check out that link for Ak-Ink it gives a very plausible linguistic account... otherwise, i have found 0 real sources besides wikipedia rip-offs that Ak-Ink has even been found as a name... as you say, it's assumed, yet where is the literary or physical evidence? but regardless, if you check out that linguistic article, it shows that there could easily have been a subjunctive formation at the root of Aquincum whether the Latin gave 2 cents or not

I followed the link, but it says On the strength of forms such as the ones cited below, scholars posit, doubtless correctly, a verbal theme *H2/3nek'- (with zero-grade *H2/3k'-) meaning ‘to obtain, get, reach’ for Indo-European: Ved. 3 sg. subj. náś-a-ti, 3 sg. desiderative pres. íyak-a-ti ‘desires to obtain, reach’, Classical Arm. 1 sg. aor. has-i ‘arrived, reached’, and Goth. 3 sg. pret.-pres. ga-nah ‘is sufficient’.... huh? Whoever invented Ak-Ink in the 1840s or 1850s simply looked at the name Aquincum and knocked off the Latin suffix. In those days it was thought that primitive peoples like the Celts (woad-daubed headhunters who built Stonehenge and wore skins) would have spoken a primitive language consisting of monosyllables - ugg! He certainly wouldn't have known all about laryngeal theory and PIE H2 becoming a.

so we have evidence for o-stem plural oi>i by 3rd century? i cant find any direct evidence

It wouldn't have happened by 272 BC, but it would by 14 AD. It depends which you want.

why does Isarno lose the i? Isarnodori, an actual place name doesn't lose it... there are other examples such as personal names without the loss as well... now i am not saying you're wrong, but i'd like to know what rule that is before i apply it.

so are you saying that n-stem nouns become 'occlusive' as the wikipedia Gaulish article says, which means nothing to me at first, but that means that it loses its special declension and falls into o-stems as you say?

I probably am wrong. I think I must have mis-remembered because I can't find the article at all now. I haven't mentioned any n-stem noun; duno- and isarno- are both o-stems.

[paullus]

There's long been speculation that the Osi on the other side of the Danube were Illyrian rather than Celtic, but had not heard that for the Eravisci, much less that they were Germanic.

[blitzkrieg80]

Elmetiacos, there is a pdf of much more value than that abstact at that link concerning Ak-Ink... there is ample evidence in Gothic and Sanskrit as well as Irish of a verb- nak 'to suffice' and a subjunctive form with reduplication. any connection between that true verb and form and Aquincum may be less tenable... yet, is there some other settlement name to use? should we make something up?

[keravnos]

...

so we have evidence for o-stem plural oi>i by 3rd century? i cant find any direct evidence

It wouldn't have happened by 272 BC, but it would by 14 AD. It depends which you want

.

I am very interested to know more about this, so a link would definitely be welcome here. A minor question. Would the dipthong such as o-i be pronounced as such? Two separate sounds an "o" and an "i" or would it be just the "i" being pronounced which inevitably led to "i" endings, (instead of "oi").

Personally my opinion on the matter would be to have "oi" endings. It deffinitely goes back to the common IE "mothertongue" or something near to that which IE spoke in Don river (Evolved Kurgan Hypothesis for me!) before reaching the ends of Eurasia from Gallicia in Spain to Inner Mongolia (Yuehzi/Tokharoi).

Besides, that is the way it was spoken at the time, so this is what it should be, IMHO. Ancient greek of 272 BCE were DEFFINITELY different than 14 CE. In fact one could say that there were more changes made in the Greek of 272 BCE to 14 CE than from 14 CE to 2008 CE. A modern greek could read aloud the greek language of 14 CE and be understandable if greek speakers from 14 CE were around. NOT SO at 272 BCE. There was a totally different way of speaking it , much closer to the original IE and Proto-Greek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Greek_language

[Elmetiacos]

There's a root *ênk- meaning "reach", but Ak-Ink is not the result of any research; it's a haphazard attempt at reconstruction by a Victorian dabbler, as I said, so don't sweat over comparisons with Sanskrit and old Armenian. That's why you can't find another credible source for it: there isn't one. I found it out by following the trail from Wikipedia's article on Budapest, which led back to an 1850-something edition of the Encyclopedia Britanica and which nobody has bothered to correct, as sometimes happens with such huge projects. Unfortunately the Wikipedia people have made changes in the last few months, so the trail now goes cold in 1911: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_E...nnica/Budapest

On the Continental Celtic group, there was one person who said the Eravisci were definitely Celts, another said they were probably Germanic, another said their names "didn't look Celtic" and another said they were Celto-Illyrian but probably didn't speak a Celtic language. If Aquincum is derived from Celtic, it could be *aku- meaning 'fast' perhaps as the name of an unrecorded tribe or sept *Acuines... if not, I don't know much about Illyrian.

As for when the transition from oi > i, ui > i and ei > ê took place, I just don't know; you'd need dated epigraphic remains with the diphthongs in and dated epigraphic remains with the simplified vowels... I'll try asking on Continental Celtic and see who can help.

[blitzkrieg80]

no- the name is NOT simply as you say '19th century' nonsense... i agree that the wikipedia and such seem to be based on nothing... and possibly this article too if it was derived as you say which it is NOT. the Germanic naxa means 'suffice' and the sanskrit has similar meaning too. how can you disprove it? the reduplication makes a lot of sense. i don't know why you claim that you know where everybody is coming from when you don't even look at the facts. I believe you when you say some fools thought that back then, but there are other people who have legitimate theories based on other data and do not necessarily use the same logic just because someone else said something. does it matter if it's 'Celtic' especially when the form is IE in origin? no, not at all... half the tribes there such as the Cotini are thought to be Pannion in name origin, so that's really irrelevant. if they adopted similar customs and came from the same IE culture, there really is no point to distinction as 'Celt' or this or that, unless we're talking about very specific linguistic features such as declension, specifically specialized innovation. in fact there is no proof that 'Celts' alone contributed to Halstatt/La Tene. Thus why there is even references at all to Cimmerians-Thracians and Celts altogether... they are theories but they remain so because we know so little of that which we define later as Celtic. so, is your argument that they should be Indo-Iranian and thus inflected as such? or should we leave the map empty with a question mark... throw in some sea-monsters? I am definitely open to alternatives. Would you suggest a settlement relocated to a nearby area where we DO have much more literary evidence?

[Elmetiacos]

It doesn't matter what the article says; I don't disagree with it, I just see it as completely irrelevant because there never was a place name "Ak Ink". It might be relevant to the origin of the name "Aquincum" somehow, although I can't see how such a root would.

[blitzkrieg80]

i just want to add that the reason i am irked is the idea that a name containing an inflected subjunctive verb (reduplicated even!) is 'simple'- that's way more unique and abstract than a compound x-burg or x-dunon... the argument i would guess is why is -incum anything special? i suppose it could be an -in diminuative / n-stem agent, and based in a word other than water, as you suggest in ako.

ps- you didn't agree with it before you ever read it... i think this because you say so in the wording of your posts... i dont think any evidence would convince you at this point. i appreciate you taking the time to post on everything, even if i might not seem too appreciative to your opinion on this matter.

i am editting that initial post to reflect what my final-ish version of my map change suggestions will be. you'll notice i changed the j>i because i do not disagree that it would seem more 'Celtic'. also, i agree that the m>n neuter o-stem nasal drop happened even if we can't explain why... similarly Greek dropped it as well. so, if i plural hasn't happened then we should reflect that i think... eventual doesn't matter. thus why the Germanic has so conservative ozez plural even though by Caesar's time the mora / unstressed syllable losses happened as well as nasal losses, Umlaut begins, ect.

so, i'm wondering about Leukoristos... I wonder if that is some kind of inflected verb then? What makes you think it has to do with moon rather than the root 'bright'? the lack of Celtic terms / usage concerning that IE root? the -ricio in Latin reminds me of rix and Germanic rikja which means kingdom

[blitzkrieg80]

ok I have looked into this and it appears that Nasal loss was a trend in Germanic very close to Celtic and Greek, esp. concerning unstressed word-final syllables and the thematic neuters. I have previously thought it didn't apply to Germanic during the EB timeline but I see i missed something because while the Mora loss on unstressed word-final doesnt apply in West Germanic, the nasal loss is throughout the Germanic-speaking area, something we can't locate exactly chronologically, but it does happen between the Umlaut and IE... and it's very interesting concerning similar Celtic and Greek progressions, also the nominative plural on thematic masculines seems very similar.

[Elmetiacos]

i just want to add that the reason i am irked is the idea that a name containing an inflected subjunctive verb (reduplicated even!) is 'simple'- that's way more unique and abstract than a compound x-burg or x-dunon... the argument i would guess is why is -incum anything special? i suppose it could be an -in diminuative / n-stem agent, and based in a word other than water, as you suggest in ako.

I'm not saying it; I don't believe, as any modern person doesn't believe, in the very notion of the "simple language", but the creator of the name "Ak Ink" did.

ps- you didn't agree with it before you ever read it... i think this because you say so in the wording of your posts... i dont think any evidence would convince you at this point. i appreciate you taking the time to post on everything, even if i might not seem too appreciative to your opinion on this matter.

The article shows that these roots and an associated morphology can exist in a Celtic language, fair enough. It could be we already know that because we have a place called Aquincum! My problem isn't with the validity of the elements in the article as PIE/Celtic roots, but with the fact that some Victorian racist took away all the grammar that went with them, because he thought monosyllabic grunts is how primitive Celts must have spoken as they painted themselves blue, killed people on big stone altars and ate their heads. I've seen it done with the name Durotriges in another book of the same period - the "original" must have been Dwr-trigs. Ugg.

i am editting that initial post to reflect what my final-ish version of my map change suggestions will be. you'll notice i changed the j>i because i do not disagree that it would seem more 'Celtic'. also, i agree that the m>n neuter o-stem nasal drop happened even if we can't explain why... similarly Greek dropped it as well. so, if i plural hasn't happened then we should reflect that i think... eventual doesn't matter. thus why the Germanic has so conservative ozez plural even though by Caesar's time the mora / unstressed syllable losses happened as well as nasal losses, Umlaut begins, ect.

so, i'm wondering about Leukoristos... I wonder if that is some kind of inflected verb then? What makes you think it has to do with moon rather than the root 'bright'? the lack of Celtic terms / usage concerning that IE root? the -ricio in Latin reminds me of rix and Germanic rikja which means kingdom

For Leukaristos, it's perhaps worth noting that on the list of names on L'Arbre Celtique, we have Leucamulus and Leucimara in Austria and Slovenia and there's the inscription from Aquincum with "Deo Teutano" (not *Toutano/Totano) - it looks as if Noric may have preserved the PrCelt *eu longer than Gaulish, since these are all from the Roman era. The Celtic cognate for "kingdom" is *rigio-. Lepontic assimilated /x/ so Gaulish rixs would have been *riss, perhaps in Noric also, but this might not be helpful because we'd more likely be looking for the stem with rig-/rik- in a compound name. Gaulish *rextu-, attested in a personal name as Restu- in an inscription from Hundinja, Slovenia (more Lepontic discarding of /x/?) is another possibility for "Shining Right" or "The Law of the Bright" as is perhaps *reti-/*ressi "running" for "Bright Racecourse"...

My question has appeared on the Continental Celtic group, but no reply yet. Everyone else is fascinated by a topic "Hallstatt, Nehalennia and Salt".

Btw - L'Arbre Celtique suggests Singidunon means "Falcon Fortress"

[Elmetiacos]

On the subject of dating of Gaulish vowel shifts, one reply I've had so far suggests ei > ê had probably already happened by the start of the EB period, while oi > i is very difficult to date, but probably occurs after the Roman conquest...

[blitzkrieg80]

{celtic_infantry_lugian} Marslugoi Lugjiskoi (Lugii Heavy Swordsmen)
"Lugian Great-arms" or "Great troops"...

I renamed the Lugii unit since I think it should have a unique name- any comments or grammatical errors?

[keravnos]

On the subject of dating of Gaulish vowel shifts, one reply I've had so far suggests ei > ê had probably already happened by the start of the EB period, while oi > i is very difficult to date, but probably occurs after the Roman conquest...

Thank you very much for that. I had always wondered about it, especially on the oi>i. Interestingly enough the greek diphthong "ο+ι" becomes "i" in sound some time after the Roman conquest as well.

[Ibrahim]

Basque is a spoken language...