Save My KOTR Elector (Open to all)

[flyd]

Save Elberhard (1)

[Zim]

I don't think anyone is arguing that this game is more objective. It's not even really at the level of a popularity contest, since more active voters have had such a disproportionate influence on how things went.

It's just that coming up with a bunch of factors and weighting them according to how important a person considers each doesn't seem to me to approach objectivity very closely either.

It's a very fun exercise, no doubt, and I'd be very impressed by the amount of work that would go into using those criteria to rank different characters. I just don't think meaningful comparisons could be made that way when it comes to roughly equally well known characters.

For instance, both Jan von Hamburg and Matthias Steffen committed arguably character defining acts during the Cataclysm. Jan, a King of Outremer and character known for his extremely high chivalry, left the Levant to participate in the Swabian Civil War at the Battle of Bern. Matthias Steffen, on the other hand, stayed and held Outremer together for the rest of the game, despite overwhelming odds. Both were dramatic decisions with far reaching impacts, and I can't say which was more memorable, yet Matthias gets fewer points for his actions than Jan's modifier gives him for being in a Civil War battle.

There are lots of little things like this. Jan and Arnold were characters defined and remembered largely by their chivalry and dread, respectively, but get the same bonus that someone like my own Andreas gets for over five of one of those traits, even though he didn't really have time for his own high chivalry to come into play. Edmund Becker's "rebellion" never saw a battle, but was equally as tense to my mind as Wolfgang Hummel's, and the interaction between Becker and Arnold was one of the most memorable parts of the Cataclysm to me.

I guess to my mind it just seems like trying to rank, say famous poems, by deciding the use of metaphors adds 2 points while the use of similes adds 1, and using a difficult structure like a Sestina (did I get that right? ) adds a modifier of x2 while Rondels are x1.5. It could be a lot of fun (well, not in the case of ranking poems. ) and spark interesting discussions, and as such would definately be worth it if you're happy to do the work involved, but it wouldn't really be much more legitimate than, say, a silly game like this where people vote for their favorite Elector.

Not trying to be argumentative either. It's just that after many years of college, I've seen many people attempt to quantfiy things that really can't be.

Basically, I tried to include every facet of potential points in my little system. Longevity and rank were (duly) rewarded, but if that character achieved neither then they would still have a chance to due well based on how memorable their shorter lives were. That's what the multiplier and "died in battle" bonuses were for. Take the example of Wolfgang Hummel. Ignoring the fact that he's been saved by Zim, it could be argued that he, while dying young and never going higher than Count, was more memorable than Gunther von Kastilien, a longtime Duke who lived into his sixties and had four important sons.

The rest of the points were pretty much rewards for activities the character took part in, whether it be crusades, Illuminati membership, etc. (although I should add a bonus for if the character was killed by another Elector) I awarded points for the character's creator's OOC involvement as well as their popularity in this.

While naturally the weighting of the points like so is subjective, I think that all the potential for points included in this cover every possible corner that can be covered and about as close to objective as one can get. At the very least, it is no more subjective than this. Not argumentative, I'm just adding my opinion.

Anyway, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how things turn out.

[flyd]

Zim, you're totally right with everything you said. You've always been right. You're right about everything, because you're super smart. I know you want to save Elberhard now that Hummel is gone.

[Zim]

Hmmm...why would you say Elberhard was more memorable than Matthias Steffen (my other top choice)?

Zim, you're totally right with everything you said. You've always been right. You're right about everything, because you're super smart. I know you want to save Elberhard now that Hummel is gone.

[Cecil XIX]

Save Elberhard.

[Privateerkev]

new page, new tally:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Elberhard - FLYdude, Cecil XIX
Jan von Hamburg - YourLordandConqueror
Matthias Steffen

[AussieGiant]

save Matthias Steffen

[Ignoramus]

Save Elberhard

[Zim]

Save Elberhard.

Flydude's flattery has worked. Plus, I couldn't decide, and he was the first to make a suggestion to me.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Save Matthias Steffen.

[Ferret]

TAKE THAT ZIM! THE EVIL HUMMEL IS DEAD!

Save Elberhard. We have a winner.

[Ituralde]

Thos last rounds went by fast. And Congratulations to the winner, I guess!

Now I might not be the first one to point out that this was never an objective contest at all and I think all people here involved know it. I still love this thread for the fact that it made me remember a lot of the Electors we had in the previous game, and made me think back again on many facets of the game that I enjoyed. It has brought back those memories from the beginning and for that I love this thread and also its results!

I think we can agree that good fun was had by all and in the end it doesn't matter which Elector was the most memorable, but that the game in itself was so memorable that this thread got started. In the end we all had the fortune to participate in such a great gaming experience on several levels!

And it's probably not entirely coincidental that the winner of this contest is one other than one of econ21s characters to whom we owe in large part the existence of this thread.

So here's to us!



By the way, GH if you really want to put yourself through it I'd be interested in the results of your method too.

[Privateerkev]

I'm actually shocked that Jan made 3rd place. In the beginning of this, I doubted he would make top 10. But, he apparently made an impression on people and I guess that is the best you can hope for when you create characters. You hope you make something that others will enjoy interacting with. Jan will always hold a special place in this old role-player's heart. Tortured and imperfect, he did always try to do what he thought was right. Against all odds, he was able to impact the world he lived in. Now he can finally rest in the peace he did not have while alive.

I'm happy Matthias got 2nd place. I always admired how fleshed out he was. I wondered if OverKnight would be able to top Otto but in my opinion, he did. Matthias and Jan were two men who wanted the same thing. And that was to be King of Outremer. So they ended up butting heads very often. But despite so much IC tension, OK always made interacting with Matthias fun and entertaining. I'll never forget the time Matthias was in the tavern and was trying to find something to order that wasn't alcoholic. Then trying to intimidate Jens with a milk mustache was just icing on the cake.

And finally Elberhard. I wondered how a player was going to have their character swear a lot without breaking .org rules and still trying to keep it fresh and entertaining. But Econ pulled it off. On top of that, Elberhard was also maxed out on chivalry. The combination was hilarious. I'll never forget Elberhard crying over "me Arnolds!" In parting, I will share some words Elberhard said to Jan in a letter. When Elberhard first became Kaiser, Jan wrote him and offered to resign as King so Elberhard could pick who he wanted to be King of Outremer. Elberhard wrote back immediately, "Jan, I could no more replace you than I could get Ansehelm to give me a wet kiss."

And finally, thank you to Cecil for putting on this game and thanks to everyone who played.

[AussieGiant]

Certainly want to say thanks to everyone too.

[GeneralHankerchief]

'grats to Elberhard. I eagerly wait Cecil's description of the three finalists.

That said, I guess I should start working through the system. See you in a few months.

[Cecil XIX]

Ah. At long last, we have a winner! Congratulations to all those Electors who participated, and a special thank you to all those who voted! Here are the final results, and see you after LotR!

1. Elberhard - Third Kaiser in his line, Elberhard was a distinct individual. His love of his fellow man and sense of Chivalry were unsurpassed throughout the Reich, though he was known to have an exceptionally lewd mind and foul mouth. Though he came from a long line of Kaisers, his authority was quite low and he was unable to hold the Reich together during th Cataclysm. Regardless, he was a exceptionally decent and honest man, and quite fun to be around, in fact he was recognized as such even by those who thought him a failure as a Kaiser. He died fighting in Italy, hoping to close one of the Reich's fronts even if it meant aiding his erstwhile enemy, Lothar Steffen.
2. Matthias Steffen - First Viceroy of Outremer, Matthias made a career out of fighting there. After Jan and Elberhard left the Holy Land he fought to keep it in Catholic hands, often alone and for a time aided by Andreas. Though he pretended to be the reasonable brother as Lothar played the fool, in truth they were as close as any brothers can be. One of the first inductees into the Illuminati, he arrived at the Battle of Trent too late to affect the outcome.
3. Jan von Hamburg - King of Outremer, Jan was best remembered as an extremely chivalrous man who was the bane of dreadful characters everywhere, in particular the Illuminati and the von Kastiliens. He commanded with distinction in Outremer, but when Lothar Steffen made a play on the Duchy of Swabia he left his post in order to stop the man whom he was certan was working for the Illuminati. This resulteding the devestating Battle of Bern, which thwarted Lothar' plan at the cost of Jan and Hans' life.
4. Wolfgang Hummel - The Reich's most successful rebel, Wolfgang founded the Principality of Swabia out of outrage for being ordered to assault a plague-ridden city. The Cataclysm prevented a timely response, and allowed him time to expand his domain in Flanders while fighting the French and Athalwolf von Salza. With Duke Hans dead he masterfully seized Staufen, but died in the fighting whilst defending his new holding Duke Athalwolf.
5. Arnold - The Dread Duke, to his enemies Arnold was as merciless as a tornado, but to his friends and subjects he was a reasonable and respectful ruler. Arnold established his reputation as a super general against the Venetians and Hungarians, but will be best remembered as the Grandmaster of the Illuminati and as such the principal victor of the Battle of Trent.
6. Maximillian Mandorf - A religious firebrand, Maximillian was first a womanizer before undergoing an intense religious awakening at the behest of Hildegard von Bingen, making him pro-papacy. Disgusted at Heinrich's actions, he was a large supporter of the Crusade and commanded one it's earliest battles. He was more of an Old Testament type.
7. Leopold - First Duke of Austria, Leopold set the standard for 'dread' characters at a time when chivalry was in vouge. He fought against the Venetians alone in Austria's earliest days, fathered Arnold and Sigismund, and at the twilight of his life led the Second Crusade against the Mongols, both to secure victory for the Reich and to find himself a death in battle worthy of a warrior.
8. Edmund Becker - Count of Bohemia, Edmund was the only Elector who was a govenor first. From the Cataclysm onwards, he fought in and around Bohemia with the ultimate goal of fostering Prague's growth into one of the Reich's greatest cities. Ultimately Prague was exterminated, and he left the Reich prior to Trent out of disgust for the directions both sides were offering.
9. Lothar Steffen - Truly, one of the Reich's most influential figures. Over the course of his life Lothar supported Swabian rebels, planned the assassination of one Kaiser, the entrapment of another and founded the Order of the Illuminati by first proposing the idea to Arnold. He directed many actions within the Reich for many years, and in the end orchestrated it's downfall.
10. Henry - Well regarded as the Reich's greatest Kaiser, Henry was the epitome of chivalry for an entire generation. In marked difference to his father, he want on Crusade in Outremer and ruled over the land in it's early years. It was under his reign that the Reich was at it's most prosperous and least troubled.
11. Fritz von Kastilien - A true terror and off the battlefield, Fritz brought victory after victory for Franconia in the waning days of the Reich, most notably by capturing Arhus and sacking Stettin. Secretly a member of the Illuminati, he revealed his true alligience at Trent and killed his brother Peter before being killed himself.
12. Otto von Kassel - First Duke of Bavaria, Otto gained the title by aiding Heinrich's plan against the Papacy. Overcome with guilt, he joined the first Crusade and as Chancellorship led the Reich to reconciliation and the First Crusade to victory. Thus he became King of Outremer after Henry.
13. Peter von Kastilien - The last Kaiser, Peter saw and caused much controversy over the course of his life. Before he became Kaiser, he led an abortive attempt to assault Constantinople and end the attempt at reunification. As Kaiser, he fought in Italy alongside his enemy Lothar. At the Battle of Trent, he met his end due to the treachery of his brother Fritz.
14. Karl Zirn - Austria's most faithful servent, Karl Zirn served both her Dukes, first acting as Austria's contribution to Outremer and later as the stalwart defender of Austria's center. He also served Duke Arnold by becoming a member of the Illuminati.
15. Dieter Bresch - A noble man who cared for his people and often released prisoners, he was the last of the Chivalrous generals. As the last Duke of Franconia, he served his Kaiser faithfully in the Battle of Trent and like so many of the Imperialists went down fighting.
16. Heinrich - No one had a greater effect on the Reich than Kaiser Heinrich. To undo the Investiture Controversy, he used Otto von Kassel to attack the Papacy in a manner completely legal and completely abhorent to the Diet. These actions would set the tone for the next three hundred years, up to and especially including the Battle of Trent.
17. Hugo de Cervole - The last of the Templars, Hugo joined Swabia and wreaked vengeance on the French who had wronged his order out of jealousy and greed. He served the Republicans in the Battle of Trent, and afterwords went on to Africa.
18. Hans - Arguably the greatest General in the History of the Reich, Hans fought and won all over the Reich from France to Constantinople to Hungary to Outremer. He met his end at the Battle of Bern after simultaneously routing one army and bloodying another.
19. Hermann Steffen - Son of Lothar, Hermann first came to prominence by orchestrating the massive battle to defend Milan from the Byzantines after fighting in Bohemia. He participated in the Battle of Trent as an organizer or logistics and communications for the Republicans.
20. Andreas von Salzgitter - A Swabian who took a keen interest in Crusading, Andreas joined King Matthias as Outremer's second General. He provided the flexibility that made it possible for the Kingdom to survive after the Cataclysm, though tragically he died defending it.
21. Conrad Salier -Secretly the son of Maximillian Mandorf and Cardinal 'Charles' Otterbach, Conrad was raised by Nuns. He followed his father to Outremer and eventually became it's King, despite a short-lived but nasty drug habit. He died against Mongols, a victim of poisoned bratwurst.
21. Welf von Luxembourg - Husband of Princess Eue, Welf came to Swabia under difficult circumstances but was able to excell in the hard fighting between Paris and Milan. He was Swabia's absentee from the Battle of Trent, keeping the French at bay while the others fought.
23. Fredericus von Hamburg - Arch-rival of Gunther von Kastilien, he joined the 2nd Crusade after being passed over as Dietrich von Saxony's successor, oversaw it's ultimate victory and spent the rest of his days in Outremer fighting against the Mongols and the Egyptians.
23. Tancred von Tyrolia - A soft-spoken man who rarely made himself heard in the Diet, this Franconian is responsible for two of the Reich's most dramatic moments: The sacking of Constantinople and the death of Fritz von Kastilien. He was a close friend of Kaiser Peter.
25. Dietrich von Saxony - First Duke of Franconia, Dietrich got into an argument with Kaiser Heinrich and was banished from the Diet. Upon his return he became a sober leader, and he died peacefully traveling with the First Crusade. He was known as the 'Old Warhorse' of the Reich.
25. Siegfried von Kastilien - The first Franconian Kaiser, Siegfried married a Byzantine Princess and began to enact a complete political and religious unification with them. This as an extremely unpopular move, which lead to both his assassination by the Illuminati and the Cataclysm.
27. Erhart Ruppel - One of Swabia's last Electors, Erhart quickly distinguished himself as a skilled tactician and politician, establishing himself as the closest thing to a ruling authority Swabia had. He sided with the Imperialists, and was struck down by Maximillian Zirn.
27. Frederich Karolinger - A RBG of Bavaria, Frederich fought in the battles plaguing Italy towards the end of the Reich. A great friend of Austria, he fought valiantly to help defend Budapest. He died in the massive battle to free Milan from a Byzantine siege.
29. Dietrich von Dassel - One of the key instigators of the Cataclysm, Dietrich assembled an army and killed the Pope at Durazzo. After crossing the Adriatic making his way towards Swabia with the intent of usurping Duke Hans, he perished at the climactic Battle of Bern.
29. Ulrich Hummel - The only Chancellor to suffer impeachment, Ulrich was a rebel to the core and defied the authority of the Charter on several occassions, including an illegal attack on Rheims. After his impeachment, he rode to his death against the Turks due to the disgrace.
31. Fredericus Erlach - A Bavarian who married into the Steffen family, Fredericus displayed great martial prowess with his campaigns in Corsica and northern Italy during the Cataclysm. He was greatly surprised to learn of the Battle of Trent, having been on vacation at the time.
31. Jonas von Mahren - A Franconian, Jonas was a friend of Austria who spent a great deal of time fighting in and around Bohemia. Tragically, he buried both of his sons. This left him an extremely bitter man when he died, and he hated the Reich more than any other elector.
33. Ansehelm von Kastilien - Duke of Franconia, Ansehelm was an outspoken, self-centered man with a penchant for alienating those around him. His most notable achievement was the Crusade against the Russians, a large-scale raid deep into their territory.
33. Ludwig von Bohmen - Ludwig appeared joining Wolfang Hummel, having fled his family's ruined holdings to find a people whom he could protect. His heart was too easily troubled to be a soldier's, but he nonetheless fought valiantly against the French and with the Republicans.
35. Jens Hummel - An ambitious young noble, down on his luck and eager to restore his family name, Jens nevertheless had difficulty inspiring confidence in those around him. He died under the command of Hans in a battle against the Mongols, his ambitions unfulfilled.
35. Jobst von Salza - 3rd Kaiser of the Reich, Jobst ascended to the throne after Kaiser Henry. He gained infamy as Prince for accidentally ambushing a Danish army on crusade, and as Kaiser he is best remembered for his death in battle, which installed Siegfried von Kastilien.
37. Athalwolf von Salza - The last Duke of Swabia, Athalwolf was the son of a Kaiser whose family originally hails from Rheims. His 'hands-off' approach to leadership led to difficulties for his house, but me met a good end in the Battle of Trent alongside the Imperialists.
37. Sigismund von Mahren - Half-brother of Arnold via Leopold, Sigismund was a chivalrous general, giving every courtesy to friend and foe alike. Thus he met an early end when he conquered Bran, defeating the King of Hungary with one regiment of spearmen.
39. Gunther von Kastilien - The 2nd Duke of Franconia, and founder of the Castilian Dynasty. Recognized by his family as the wisest among them, he was well liked, save for his arch-rival and fellow crusader Fredericus von Hamburg.
40. Gerhard Steffen - The 2nd Duke of Bavaria and father of Lothar and Matthias. He achieved great renown in Italy fighting the Venetians, the Hungarians and the Pacacy, most notable in the final battle against Pope Gregory. His achievements have placed him 40th.
41. Jan Zirn - Second son of Karl, Jan Zirn played a short but important role in the history of the Reich by fighting at Battle of Trent and aiding in his brother's deception of the Imperialists. This has been enough to secure him 41st place.
42. Sigismund der Stolze - The first Elector to die, and the only one to be assassinated, Sigismund was one of the Reich's first chivalrous generals. Having fought well against the French, he was rumored to have been a candidate for Prinz before his death. He places 42nd.
43. Lorenz Zirn - Of House Austria, he made a name for himself waging war against the Hungarians alongside his non-relative Karl Zirn. During the climax of the Cataclysm he came to the aid of Edmund Becker, saving Prague several times up to and including his death.
44. Dieter von Kassel - The last Prinz of the HRE, Dieter was a quiet man and rumored to have been quite mad. Regardless, he made a fine Prinz and had no enemies. This strategy has given him 44th place in this contest.
45. Maximillian Zirn - Youngest son of Karl Zirn, in the Battle of Trent he played the role of double-agent for the Illuminati and killed Erhart Ruppel, the first bad news the Imperialists would receive that day. Though it was his only achievement, it was enough to get him 45th place.
46. Maximillian von Hapsburg - The opportunist from House Austria, Maximillian was the only Imperialist to survive the Battle of Trent. After taking a break for a booze-cruise on the high seas, he is currently God-King of the Aztecs and has reached 46th place in this contest.
47. Frederich Scherer - The first Duke to be eliminated; for a man of such rank this Swabian kept a low profile. He decimated the French with no less than four famous battle markers in lieu of spending time in the Diet. This earned him much admiration, and placed him 47th.
48. Jan von der Pflaz - One of the pair of Generals who flocked to Wolfgang Hummel's banner, he was a staunch Lutherist who guarded Luther himself in the last years of their lives. His selfless sacrifice in taking Bruges has tied him for 48th.
48. Johann Zirn - The first son of Karl Zirn, he died less than twenty years after his father during the relief of Vienna under mysterious circumstances. His early death has resulted in placing 48th.
48. Lukas Godwinson - Though he had an impeccably well-developed backstory, this son of an english invader died of the plague before he could make a lasting impression on the Reich as the whole. The result is his placing 48th.
51. Erhart von Mahren - Though he did not last long, Erhart's death provided a lot of character development for his father Jonas and brother Sigismund. That was enough for him to survive the first round, but no more.
51. Helmut von Hamburg - Despite seething in anger against his brother Jan in the Diet, Helmut died in the Russian Crusade before be could make a stronger impression and has likewise been eliminated early from this contest.
51. Wilhelm von Heidelberg - An intensely chivalrous man, immediately after joining Austria he was captured by the Poles and executed after a disastrous battle north of Budapest. It was a tragic end, but not a memorable one and thus he is eliminated.
54. Dieter von Essen - Known mainly for challenging the Kaiser's ability to act as steward for the chancellor, Dieter died too soon to recover from the small stigma attached to him after that and as a result has been eliminiated in the first round.
54. Hans von Bavaria - Though officially an avatar, Hans von Bavaria didn't really do anything, not even enough to warrant a second profile picture for 1360. His early elimination is no surprise.
54. Markus Steffen - The lost Steffen brother, Markus died in the assault on Corsica due to curse placed on the Steffen family by the witch Danae. His tragic death resulted in Lothar decimating the island and Markus's early elimination from this contest.

[AussieGiant]

Very well done Cecil

[Privateerkev]

Yeah Cecil, I love all 56 write ups. You hit the bullet points on each person quite well.

[GeneralHankerchief]

A big round of applause to Cecil!

Here's the finalized list I'm using (changes in italics):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Initial points (highest position obtained only):

10 for Kaiser
6 for Duke and King/Viceroy of Outremer
4 for Count
2 for none.

Multipliers:

x2 for active participation (fought in a battle) in a civil war – Counts or lower
x1.5 for active participation (fought in a battle) – Dukes or higher

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bonuses:

+10 for winning “Save my KotR Elector”
+5 for placing top five
+3 for placing top ten
+1 for placing top twenty
+4 for being playable at the start of the game
+3 for participation in a Crusade (not just being present in Outremer – Teutonic Crusade counts)
+3 for being in the Illuminati
+3 for dying in battle vs. AI – commanding
+2 for dying in battle vs. AI – support
+2 for participation in 1154 emergency Diet session
+2 for participation in Battle of Trent
+2 for participation in the Cataclysm
+1 for surviving the Cataclysm
+1 for every Diet session vote participated in
+3 for killing or orchestrating the death of a Pope (one-time only bonus)
+5 for every time elected/served as Chancellor
+1 for every time character ran and lost for Chancellor
+5 for every Elector character was directly responsible for the death of (not applicable if death was unintended)
+5 if character was killed by the purposeful actions of another Elector
+1 if more than 5 points in either Chivalry or Dread
+2 if character had one name
+2 if character received a famous battle marker on map
+4 if character received more than one famous battle marker on map
+1 for every Kaiser character lived under
+2 if character had at least 2 true sons
+1 if character was true son of another Elector
+2 if character was adopted and became Duke
+1 if more than 5 stories about character in stories thread (co-op stories count)
+3 if more than 10 stories about character in stories thread (co-op stories count)
+1 if more than 5 battle reports made by character (if mentioned as a secondary general, counts as ½ a battle report)
+3 if more than 10 battle reports made by character (if mentioned as a secondary general, counts as ½ a battle report)

Let me know what you guys think.

I've run this system on about half the top twenty so far with some interesting results. So far, there have been two Electors really setting themselves apart from the pack.

[Ferret]

Thanks for hosting Cecil, have a balloon

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, I ran the simulation for the top 20 Electors and here's what it spat back at me. They are listed in order of Save my KotR Elector finish.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

20. Andreas von Salzgitter – 13
(non Count, top 20, died in battle vs. AI, Cataclysm participator (spawned 1338), Cataclysm survivor, 2 Diet session votes, Chiv, 2 Kaisers)

While Andreas was saddled by his lack of title and an early death, he nevertheless earned a very respectable 13 points for someone dying so young.

19. Herrmann Steffen – 15
(Count, top 20, French Crusader, Illuminati, 1 Diet session vote, true son, 2 Kaisers)

Coming into KotR so late and sitting out the battle of Trent to do logistical work harmed Herrmann the most, who scored the bulk of his points mainly due to his heritage.

18. Hans – 50
(Duke x1.5, top 20, Crusader, Cataclysm participator, 7 Diet session votes, Chancellor, 2 losses, killed by Dietrich von Dassel, 1 famous battle, 1 name, 5 Kaisers, true son, 10 stories, 10 battles)

Hans, the longtime Swabian general who picked up probably more accolades than anybody, finishes 6th in this simulation. He picks up his points due to sheer longevity and his role in the Swabian Civil War.

17. Hugo de Cervole – 20
(Count x2, top 20, French Crusader, Trent, 2 Diet session votes, 2 Kaisers, 5 battles)

Coming in immediately after the Cataclysm, Hugo did very well for only being active for 40 game years, picking up an impressive amount of points due to his military prowess.

16. Heinrich – 41
(Kaiser, top 20, initial player, 1154, 6 Diet session votes, Pope-killer, Chancellor, 1 loss, 1 name, 1 Kaiser, 2 true sons, 10 stories, 5 battles)

My sentimental favorite, Heinrich cracks the top 10 in this simulation as opposed to his 16th place finish. He picks up his points due to his initial power and lack of hesitancy to use it, but is held back by lack of involvement in the later, more destructive events of the game.

15. Dieter Bresch – 34
(Duke x1.5, top 20, Cataclysm participator, Cataclysm survivor, Trent, 6 Diet Session votes, killed by Arnold, 5 Kaisers, adoptee Duke)

Dieter does one better in this simulation, placing 14th. He is rewarded for being both in a position of power and taking part in the closing events of the Reich, plus gets the rare benefit of being an adoptee Duke.

14. Karl Zirn – 33
(Count, top 20, Crusader, Illuminati, Cataclysm participator, Cataclysm survivor, 7 Diet session votes, Chiv, 5 Kaisers, 2 true sons, 5 stories, 10 battles)

Zirn, while being an extremely chivalrous and long-lived character, wasn’t that controversial in his time and got punished for the simulation for it. Quietly doing good for many causes of the Reich, including the Illuminati, for so many years, he places 15th.

13. Peter von Kastilien – 47
(Kaiser x1.5, top 20, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, Trent, 7 Diet session votes, killed by Arnold, Dread, 2 famous battles, 5 Kaisers, true son, 10 stories)

I thought Peter would have scored higher in this due to the huge multiplier effect and his death at Trent. Nevertheless, he still improves in this simulation, placing 8th. Unfortunately, he finished a point behind his archnemesis Lothar Steffen.

12. Otto von Kassel – 40
(Duke/King, top 20, initial character, Crusader, 1154, 9 Diet session votes, Pope-killer, Chancellor, Chiv, 2 Kaisers, 10 stories, 5 battles)

Otto, the ultimate rags-to-riches story of the Reich, advanced very highly in the Empire’s hierarchy and found himself quite often in positions of power. Just like the man that made him Duke, however, Otto’s time was a bit before the messes of the 1300s and that’s what punished him. He places 11th.

11. Fritz von Kastilien – 56
(Count x2, top 20, Illuminati, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, Trent, 5 Diet session votes, Chancellor, 1 loss, killed Tancred and Athalwolf, killed by Tancred, Dread, 5 Kaisers, true son, 10 stories, 10 battles)

Fritz is really rewarded by the simulation for his time period and the magnitude of his effect at Trent, scoring a whopping 17 points for his involvement in that battle alone. He places 2nd along with a frequent target of his criticisms, Elberhard.

10. Henry – 52
(Kaiser, top 10, initial character, Crusader, 1154, 10 Diet session votes, Chancellor, 1 loss, Chiv, 1 name, 2 Kaisers, 2 true sons, true son, 10 stories, 10 battles)

The Reich’s “greatest Kaiser” (though I still say that belongs to Heinrich) gets nailed the same way Karl Zirn does – for being too uncontroversial. The simulation respects his amazing longevity (having the most Diet session votes), however, and rewards him for that. Henry finishes in the top 5.

9. Lothar Steffen – 48
(Duke x1.5, top 10, Illuminati, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, Trent, 8 Diet session votes, 1 loss, killed Siegfried, 2 famous battles, 5 Kaisers, 2 true sons, true son, 5 stories, 5 battles)

Lothar’s rank improves slightly in this simulation, moving from 9th to 7th, but it’s still not the top-5 finish a lot of the “Save my KotR Elector” players were predicting. His longevity and participation in the Illuminati are well-rewarded, but his willingness to play the “bogeyman” of sorts and not direct the Reich himself holds him back.

8. Edmund Becker – 21
(Count, top 10, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, 4 Diet session votes, 1 famous battle (technically the loser, but a battle’s a battle), 3 Kaisers, 5 stories, 5 battles)

Becker gets hit hardest by the simulation, dropping from 8th to 17th. His ideals of being a governor rather than a general, his unwillingness to take sides at Trent, and his misfortune of coming around at a time when the Diet sessions were few cost him dearly.

7. Leopold – 44
(Duke, top 10, initial character, Crusader, died in battle vs. AI, 1154, 9 Diet session votes, Chancellor, 1 name, 2 Kaisers, true son, 5 stories, 10 battles)

The original Dread Duke, as it turns out, never went over 5 Dread in his lifetime. While very active and powerful in his lifetime, Leopold suffers the same fate as Heinrich and Otto in that he was too early on in the game to take part in civil wars and the like. He switches places with Lothar in the simulation.

6. Maximillian Mandorf – 33
(Count, top 10, initial character, Crusader, 1154, 8 Diet session votes, Chancellor, 2 Kaisers, 5 stories, 5 battles)

While having an interesting storyline of transforming from a playboy to a religious fanatic, it’s not represented very well in the simulation. He is fairly low for the same reasons his comrades Heinrich, Otto, and Leopold are, placing 15th along with fellow Outremerian Karl Zirn.

5. Arnold – 65
(Duke x1.5, top 5, Illuminati, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, Trent, 8 Diet session votes, Chancellor, 1 loss, killed Peter von Kastilien and Dieter Bresch, Dread, 1 name, 2 famous battles, 5 Kaisers, true son, 10 stories, 10 battles)

Arnold, Duke of Austria for seemingly forever, Chancellor, Grand Master of the Illuminati, Overall Commander of the Republican forces at Trent, killer of the Imperialist Franconians, etc. runs away with this one, placing 1st by 9 points over his nearest competitors. Well-represented and involved in pretty much every major event in the latter half of KotR, the simulation heavily rewards the Dread Duke for it.

4. Wolfgang Hummel – 35
(Count x2, top 5, died in battle vs. AI, Cataclysm participant, 4 Diet session votes, 1 loss, killed by Ehrhart Ruppel, 4 Kaisers, true son, 5 stories)

There were accusations in the game of Wolfgang going farther than he should have due to player sympathies. The simulation agrees, dropping him down to 13th. While being rewarded for his guts (and end) in the Swabian Civil War, Wolfgang simply wasn’t around long enough or powerful enough to repeat his showing in Save my KotR Elector.

3. Jan von Hamburg – 40
(King x1.5, top 5, Crusader, Cataclysm participant, 3 Diet session votes, killed Dietrich von Dassel, killed by Dietrich von Dassel, Chiv, 4 Kaisers, 10 stories)

Interestingly enough, it’s only Jan’s participation in the Battle of Bern that gets him where he is according to the simulation, it not really rewarding presence in the Diet aside from votes cast. He places 11th, tied with another King of Outremer in Otto von Kassel.

2. Matthias Steffen – 53
(Viceroy x1.5, top 5, Crusader, Illuminati, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, Trent, 6 Diet session votes, 2x Chancellor, 5 Kaisers, true son, 10 stories, 10 battles)

Matthias follows his runner-up finish with a very respectable 4th in the simulation, mostly thanks to his dual Chancellorship and longevity. What didn’t put him over the hump was probably his late arrival at Trent and his lack of opportunity to kill Imperialist generals.

1. Elberhard - 56
(Kaiser, winner, died in battle vs. AI, Cataclysm participant, Cataclysm survivor, 7 Diet session votes, Chancellor (various fill-in work), Chiv, 1 name, 2 famous battles, 4 Kaisers, true son, 10 stories, 10 battles)

Elberhard won Save my KotR Elector and almost repeated that performance in the simulation, finishing as runner-up along with Fritz von Kastilien. He is rewarded for his position and longevity, but it makes one wonder: had he arrived in Europe with the Swabian Civil War still brewing, how many more points would he have racked up that way?

In order of simulation finish:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Arnold (65)
2. Fritz von Kastilien (56)
Elberhard (56)
4. Matthias Steffen (53)
5. Henry (52)
6. Hans (50)
7. Lothar Steffen (48)
8. Peter von Kastilien (47)
9. Leopold (44)
10. Heinrich (41)
11. Otto von Kassel (40)
Jan von Hamburg (40)
13. Wolfgang Hummel (35)
14. Dieter Bresch (34)
15. Maximillian Mandorf (33)
Karl Zirn (33)
17. Edmund Becker (21)
18. Hugo de Cervole (20)
19. Herrmann Steffen (15)
20. Andreas von Salzgitter (13)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Obviously, considering the low scores of Becker and some of the older Electors, it isn't perfect or even objective, but I think it did a pretty good job of encompassing the major events of KotR and rewarding the Electors for it. What did the trick for Arnold was probably his being in the latter half of the game instead of the 1st half, where there was comparitively little going on compared to the action-packed 1300s.

[AussieGiant]

Good god GH, that's truly incredible how fast you did that. Well done yet again. You and Cecil seem to have similar skills in being able to summarise an entire life into three sentences or less

Interesting results that's for sure. It's a completely different way of trying to get the same "feel" of a result.

A number of nice overlaps where the polling and the number crunching match up.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Good god GH, that's truly incredible how fast you did that.

The Library, Mausoleum, and Histories thread really helped. Godsends for counting the Diet votes and number of stories/battle reports.

[Privateerkev]

Good work.

I think you missed a couple points though.

Jan was:

1.) the true son of another Elector (Fredericus von Hamburg)

2.) had more than 5 battle reports made by character (if mentioned as a secondary general, counts as ½ a battle report) (Jan was mentioned in a lot of battle reports)

3.) x2 for active participation (fought in a battle) in a civil war – Counts or lower (Jan was a knight in the Battle of Bern.)

4.) +3 for participation in a Crusade (not just being present in Outremer – Teutonic Crusade counts) (Jan was in both the 2nd and 3rd Crusade. You mentioned killing the Pope as a one time bonus only so it makes me assume that this bonus is given per Crusade.)

So, that might be another 3 for Bern, 1 for being Fred's son, 3 for another Crusade, and probably 1 for being mentioned in battle reports. If all of this is true, he might have 48 points which would tie him for 7th with Lothar.

[GeneralHankerchief]

1) Looks like I forgot that one.

2) According to my records, you made zero battle reports in the thread. This would mean that Jan would have to be a secondary general in 10 other battles, and I don't count that many.

3) Okay, you can't have your cake and eat it too. I gave Jan the King level plus its 1.5 multiplier. It's either that or the x2 multiplier for a lower rank. No fair using phantom multipliers.

4) TBH, I didn't realize that anybody had been on two Crusades when adding that bonus. It's kind of unfair to think of whether I'd add that or not now. We'll make up the difference and give him a +1.5 bonus.

So this adds 2.5 to Jan's score, putting him at 42.5 total.

[Ramses II CP]

Ye gods I can't even begin to guess at how much work that was either.

I'm quite surprised by Fritz's placement in that system. I suppose he did have a pretty significant impact on the endgame, but IMHO any system that places him ahead of Lothar Steffen, who was the source of a lot of his opportunities to score points, has to have an inherent flaw.

I thought I had a battle marker or two as well, but in truth it's been a long time since I looked at the KotR save and I might be full of it.

If I can be subjective in my own direction for a moment, the results I'd be most interested in are (For example) a save-my-elector-ish contest for best battle story, best individual story, best ongoing (Multiple individual additions or updates) story line, etc. I am, by avocation more than by vocation, a writer and for such a disparate group I think we produced some good, entertaining, and generally consistent fiction. Of course for such a contest to work fairly we'd have to bar the writers from participating, or at least formalize the rule against voting for yourself.

[Privateerkev]

1.) thanks!

2.) I'll have to check. Econ and Matthias wrote Jan in a lot. I always asked to have Jan participate in battles as a secondary general.

3.) Shucks. I had to try. :D

4.) Fair enough. Was Jan the only avatar on 2 crusades? Hans might have been as well.

[GeneralHankerchief]

All I did for battle markers was check TinCow's list in the Library. Granted, the last entry was from 1338, so it might be missing some.

[Privateerkev]

I checked the battle reports. Jan was mentioned in 7 of them. At half, that doesn't reach the 5 report threshhold. For some reason, I thought he was in more than that.

So, 42.5 it is. Which puts him nicely in 10th place.

[Ituralde]

Interesting results, GH so thanks to you and of course Cecil for his writeups.

You know with Leopold being a Dread Duke I have to say it was a lot easier back then with all the Chivalry guys hanging around. By the time Arnold came around everybody was so dreadful you had to go all the way to distinguish yourself. I never saw Leopold as the ultimate bad guy, just a tad more brutal than the others. I guess his Crusading didn't help either. So I just laid the groundworks for the Dread Throne, which Arnold ascended quite effectively.