New factions?

[Krusader]

I thought they were its' colonies?

Was in a hurry, but then forgot to go back and change.

Yes, Arse & Emporion were colonies of Massilia, but in a similar way as Taras was a Spartan colony and Syracuse a Corinthian. There were ties between them, but from what Sarcasm found out, that when Carthage & the Etruscans allied to expel the Greeks from Alalia in Corsica (which they did) Arse & Emporion sent no ships to aid Massilia.
So this shows they were most likely independent from Massilia.

[Aodhan]

Krusader just said essentially what I was going to say about Massalia but he beat me to it.

[Jolt]

Was in a hurry, but then forgot to go back and change.

Yes, Arse & Emporion were colonies of Massilia, but in a similar way as Taras was a Spartan colony and Syracuse a Corinthian. There were ties between them, but from what Sarcasm found out, that when Carthage & the Etruscans allied to expel the Greeks from Alalia in Corsica (which they did) Arse & Emporion sent no ships to aid Massilia.
So this shows they were most likely independent from Massilia.

I wonder how did Sarcasm came to get that information? As far as I'm aware documents about that war are very sketchy.

[Sarcasm]

Magic. Or reading the classics. One or the other.

[Aodhan]

I have been thinking about the Koinon Hellenon argument – league or balkanization. While I recognize representing them, as a unified league isn’t wholly accurate it is still quite possibly the best way to represent them in light of the limitations imposed by the Total War system. If Koinon Hellenon is broken into it’s constituent city states it would end up as several independent and static states which would essentially be little more than minor speed bumps (with the exception of Rhodes which would be a slightly larger speed bump) for human players. Since the Total War system does not permit creation of a loose confederation with shifting alliances, agreements and conflicts such as Hellas was at the time. If divided into so many independent states Hellas would not produce its historical center of political and economic gravity and seriously impact play balance. In short an over-centralized Koinon Hellenon is better for game play than a bunch of speed bumps.

[Jolt]

Magic. Or reading the classics. One or the other.

It'd be more useful if one would actually post the name of the classic work which has that information.

For all I know, you could have seen it in a universitary thesis.

I'm not so sure magic did it though.

[Sarcasm]

Oh, I remember you now. You're the guy who added me on MSN badgering me with questions for sources without actually doing any research for yourself, expecting me to have everything in hand.

Hmmm, yeah. Do an effort » Herodotus, García y Bellido, Dixon and Casson at the very least.

[Jolt]

Oh, I remember you now. You're the guy who added me on MSN badgering me with questions for sources without actually doing any research for yourself, expecting me to have everything in hand.

Hmmm, yeah. Do an effort » Herodotus, García y Bellido, Dixon and Casson at the very least.

Yeah, I'd be the guy who added you in the MSN, but that's as far as it goes. I did no such thing as badgering questions for sources, nor do I even recall having a discussion on sources of any kind really. What I remember was a supposedly friendly talking about the implementation of the frequent ambushes the Iberians did, as well as something about the forging of weapons. Now implying I didn't do research for myself? What for? To talk to you about this game? Eh? Nor do I really expect you to give me everything in hand. As far as I'm aware this game thrives for historical accuracy, and historical accuracy doesn't come over the top of ones head. As was said around this forum, the team was going to make an effort to explicit the bibliographies or sort from where they got information on various aspects for EB II. So paleeze.

[Kataki]

So, EB2 will have 26 factions?

Also this team says they have 31 factions that are playable, including playable minifactions..I'm not sure i even understand what mini-factions are, but having 5 more factions to conquer is always a plus :P

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...32#post3258432

[Foot]

No, EBII will have 31 factions. Please don't consider the uninformed opinions of fans to be kosher information of the direction of EBII. Besides we've mentioned often enough that there will be 10 new factions for EBII, which makes 30 playable factions and 1 slave faction.

Foot

[Sarcasm]

Yeah, I'd be the guy who added you in the MSN, but that's as far as it goes. I did no such thing as badgering questions for sources, nor do I even recall having a discussion on sources of any kind really. What I remember was a supposedly friendly talking about the implementation of the frequent ambushes the Iberians did, as well as something about the forging of weapons. Now implying I didn't do research for myself? What for?

We seem to have a different recollection (or is it perspective?) about those conversations. You implied several times that Iberians and specifically Lusitanians were incapable of fighting in a battle-line. Whenever I mentioned an instance of when something like that occurred, you immediately asked for sources, as if I should have them ready right there, just like you did here...and yet, you have no intention of researching anything for yourself. Should I be more fore coming, and waste my limited and precious time in providing you the sources in this situation?

I think not.

[Jolt]

We seem to have a different recollection (or is it perspective?) about those conversations. You implied several times that Iberians and specifically Lusitanians were incapable of fighting in a battle-line. Whenever I mentioned an instance of when something like that occurred, you immediately asked for sources, as if I should have them ready right there, just like you did here...and yet, you have no intention of researching anything for yourself. Should I be more fore coming, and waste my limited and precious time in providing you the sources in this situation?

I think not.

Wrong. As you very well stated by the words "implied" simply mean that I said something that it was not exactly that. What I did mean in that they would rarely fight in a battle line under native leadership in the way I saw it, and with the frequency in RTW. (If you also recall correctly, this was even way before EB Open Beta was released), you brought up some examples (The only one I remember you saying was Púnico), and that's as far as you are correct. I didn't demand or ask for any sources, as I said in my previous post. And how is it so that you know of my intentions to researching the said subjects or not? Seeing how you jump to conclusions, I'm beginning to believe there's more magic and less classics in the answer... Even so, you have proven your point, even if there wasn't one to begin with. Just a one time chat some years ago, which is now being used to demean myself. Oh well, tough luck.

[Foot]

Take it to the PMs people.

Foot

[Jolt]

Take it to the PMs people.

Foot

Right. I apologize. This conversation is over, anyhow.

[Kataki]

No, EBII will have 31 factions. Please don't consider the uninformed opinions of fans to be kosher information of the direction of EBII. Besides we've mentioned often enough that there will be 10 new factions for EBII, which makes 30 playable factions and 1 slave faction.

Foot

Oh 31 is plenty enough for me ;). I was just pointing out what another mod said M2TW was supposedly capable of to see how true it was.

[Strategos Alexandros]

Was in a hurry, but then forgot to go back and change.

Yes, Arse & Emporion were colonies of Massilia, but in a similar way as Taras was a Spartan colony and Syracuse a Corinthian. There were ties between them, but from what Sarcasm found out, that when Carthage & the Etruscans allied to expel the Greeks from Alalia in Corsica (which they did) Arse & Emporion sent no ships to aid Massilia.
So this shows they were most likely independent from Massilia.

Bit late, but you learn something new every day.

[HamilcarBarca]

Yes, Arse & Emporion were colonies of Massilia, but in a similar way as Taras was a Spartan colony and Syracuse a Corinthian. There were ties between them, but from what Sarcasm found out, that when Carthage & the Etruscans allied to expel the Greeks from Alalia in Corsica (which they did) Arse & Emporion sent no ships to aid Massilia.

While Massalia and Emporion were both colonies of the Phocaean Greeks, the city of Arse(ken)-Saguntum was actually an indigenous Iberian settlement - NOT a Greek settlement.

H.

[Hax]

Perhaps the Phocaeans subjugated the city and took it over?

[General Appo]

I have understood it as such that Arsé itself was a a Iberian city, it´s major port, Saguntum, was a greek one. It could have been the other way around with. I think I read it in a thread I myself started. I shall search for it.

Edit: Yep, here´s the thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...porions+Colony

And here´s the post of interest:

Arsé was NOT a greek city, it is was an Edetani oppida. However, the port town that served it (much like Portus and Ostia for Rome, or Piraeus and Phaleron for Athens) was essentially populated by Greek and Hellenised traders, and was probably their main source of revenue. These guys probably had enough political influence to convince the oppida's leadership to act much like Emporion and other Greek colonists elsewhere, and side with Rome against Carthaginian hegemony.

The fact that it was a major fortification controlling the main coastal road, that would conceivably side with the enemy once hostilities commenced, meant the city would inevitably be subjected to an 8-month siege. There's actually still enough evidence on the extensive punic circumvalation works and even Hannibal's main camp that allows us to reconstruct them with some degree of certainty.

When Hannibal finally destroys the fortified city in 219, killing, enslaving or dispersing its population, the port takes it's place as the major settlement in the area. It's only quite a bit after the Romans take over that the name Saguntum comes into play.

BTW, other Greek settlements include Portus Menusios, Portus Menesthei, Mainake, Heraklia, Alonis, Akra Leuke, Artemision, Hemeroskopeion and Rhode, just north of Emporion.

[Cartaphilus]

In Emporion the greeks and the iberian people (indiketes) lived more or less "together" (as in Arsé) under greek and iberian laws, as it is told by Strabo (Geography III, 4, 8).


One suggestion more: as I told in other thread, the starting situation of Balearic Island could be more adjusted to the reality if you use Type III or IV gov. building instead of Type I - but I don't know if you will change the whole thing of gov. buildings.

[dominique]

Since it's Europa Barbarorum, I would like to see more Barbarian factions...

On the top of my head;

-The Thracians, who could play a beautiful game between the Getai, the Epirotes and the Macedonians. It could be the Celto-thracian kingdom of Tylis, or not.

-The Boii, who had a very interesting story and are a gameplay factor to control the Sweboz AND Rome and Epire.

-The Illyrians. There must be a reason why the Romans and the Greeks weren't able to subjugate the region until Augustus. Also, Dalminion and Segesta must be arder to grab.

-The Salyans: A Celto-Ligurian tribe. A lot of evidence was found in Entremont recently, evidence that points that this people has reach the organization of a Polis. It took a consular army to take it and raze it.

-The Arivacians: The tribe that fought Rome for a hundred years until the bloody siege of Numantia where Gaius Marius learned his trade.

-Numidia: Massinissa, Jugurtha. 'Nuff said.

-Axum and Meroe: They build Obelisks!!! Pyramids!!!!!

-Laginians: In 270 Ireland was just conquered by the laginians, according to O'Rahilly. However, since before Niall of the Nine Hostages in 378 AD there is scant evidence of an organized polis in Ireland...

-Insubres: Come on, they were no Aedui in Mediolanum, they were Insubres! Keep the Aedui's dirty paws out of Gallia Cisalpina! Of, by the way, they also are the guys who brought the gaesatae in history, at Telamon.

And some greek thingies, if you like it. Of course. Pergamon's been already announced. So, you could add Syracuse and Massilia (if you don't put the Salyans), Cyrene.

Of course, the problem with these possible greek factions is the lack of room for expansion, so, their job is to eventually die. Unless you are a die hard maniac who find that playing hayasdan is a piece of cake.

=============
And the advantage is that all these factions requires no new unit.

[General Appo]

*ahem* Read the thread (or just any random page of it really) and you´ll see why most of those factions won´t be included. I´m afraid I don´t have the time to give any detailed answers though. Just´d like to add though, that the Getai are Thracians, and that the Thracians as a whole certainly weren´t unified at this time to represent a faction.

[russia almighty]

I could have sworn the Getai are the Dacians.


Or at least the powerful main tribe of that group.

[General Appo]

Yeah, but the Dacians are Thracian...

[captainmarcus]

just throwin this one out there how about the nubians in meroe just south of Egypt they would be intense

[Hax]

No.

Look at the first page.

[AlexanderSextus]

Numidia almost seems as if it is BADLY needed. There has to be someone to keep the Qarthadastim from eatng up N. Africa. They do it in almost every campaign.

[General Appo]

Indeed, I´d say the Numidians is the one faction which is mostly direly needed for EB2. Though of course, two numidian factions wouldn´t hurt either...

[Che Roriniho]

This gives me an idea!

I have a suggestion as to how to get 52 playable factions. Why not have two campaigns which are identical, except with Campaign A only the first 26 factions are playable, and with Campaign B the last 26 are playable. Sort of like what RTR 7.0 wants to do, except with two campaigns instead of 20.

With Kingdoms promising multiple campaigns, you could just have:

EB Main Campaign (A to L)
EB Main Campaign (M to Z)

in your main menu and, hey presto, 52 playable factions.

The only thing is, I'm not sure you'd be able to squeeze in a realistic amount of units for 52 factions with the same space you had for 21 or whatever factions, but anyway, here's my suggestion if you need it.

That's is actually a bloody good idea. I'd PM this to someone. (haven't read past this, so don't know if it has been dismissed further down the page)

Hopefully it's possible. should be.

[Ludens]

That's is actually a bloody good idea. I'd PM this to someone. (haven't read past this, so don't know if it has been dismissed further down the page)

It's not going to happen, I am afraid. It's too much work to get all 52 factions up to EB-quality, and the EB team wants all factions to be playable at the same time.