OOC Thread and Chatroom

[Ramses II CP]

Frankly I think handling it IC sends the wrong message. OOC rules should not be available for debate. The foundation of the game is the respect all players are required to show to those rules. We're talking about the same rules that prevent us from moving each other's avatars at will here.

If the OOC rules are negotiable IC then we're going to see a lot more chaos. What's to prevent me from grabbing the save and moving all the crusaders except myself away from Egypt? An OOC rule... but if I can explain it IC does that make it okay?

[Andres]

I'm glad the money situation is figured out.

But the Megas still broke the actual Rules. Not just mamby-pamby edicts.

I'll lay out the case IC. Stay tuned...

Meh, it seems like there is plenty of money.

Money solves all problems. Mak will be nitpicking, but what else can you expect from a fanatic religious nutjob

Igno can recruit the required amount of troops in no time now.

[Ramses II CP]

Meh, it seems like there is plenty of money.

Money solves all problems. Mak will be nitpicking, but what else can you expect from a fanatic religious nutjob

Igno can recruit the required amount of troops in no time now.

You're missing the point.

Last turn he wasn't allowed to build anything or recruit anything for non-private armies until he recruited the required amount of troops. By his own admission he decided to ignore that rule.

[Andres]

Frankly I think handling it IC sends the wrong message. OOC rules should not be available for debate. The foundation of the game is the respect all players are required to show to those rules. We're talking about the same rules that prevent us from moving each other's avatars at will here.

If the OOC rules are negotiable IC then we're going to see a lot more chaos. What's to prevent me from grabbing the save and moving all the crusaders except myself away from Egypt? An OOC rule... but if I can explain it IC does that make it okay?

I understand and agree with your point of view.

Imo, TinCow is Gamemaster and it seems to me that this is entirely his decision. Maybe it's better if the OOC aspect of this matter is dealt with by TC, in private?

As for the IC aspect of the matter, let the games begin

Just my

[AussieGiant]

Can I request that we keep OOC comments out of the Senate thread.

I agree Ramses, however as you will see from my posts I was also unaware of the exact details. I've tried to disguise that with BS, smoke and some mirrors, (Please note anyone using this OOC admission in an IC way will get me coming after them with an ice pick.)

While the rules are shortish and well written by TC, you still need to be extremely well organised and aware of all issues OOC to be the Megas.

I've brought this up before but if we've made the rules so detailed that if we can't resolve errors IC, then we are excluding a large number of people from running because they either don't want the pressure or are unaware of all the rules and how they relate to each other. You can't "wrote learn this stuff anymore". You need to 'understand' them and how they relate to a complex, fluid well simulate world.

In other words, I'm pretty glad I've done a politics and history degree so I can deal with this game from a fairly equal footing. That should not be the minimum requirements to run for Megas.

Plus...if there is an issue like this...impeach...likewise I'd speak to TC in private to find a resolution OOC if that is what people wish (I'd highly disuade people from doing this as the IC consequences are more than enough to find satisfaction in my opinion.)

[Privateerkev]

Ramses:

I'm talking about it IC because it seems appropriate to push for IC consequences. Plus, fits with my character... ;)

But yes, I would like a ruling on this from TC. We long established that the rules are set in stone. (until they are changed by CA's.)

If this was a misunderstanding by Ig, that would be different. But he admits to ignoring the rules on purpose.

And unlike KotR, it is actually against the Rules to break the Rules. (unless it is an event.)

[Andres]

Edited this out in the Magnaura:

OOC: Guys, we're talking about the rules of the game here. The ones TC has told us over and over, that they are not to be broken. Well, I can prove without a shadow of a doubt that they were broken.

OOC: True that, but that's OOC. IC, impeachment requires 2/3d votes. If 1/3+1 does not want to offend the Caesar IC for whatever IC reasons, then he will not be impeached. The impeachment is an IC "punishment" and should only be invoked for IC reasons. I'll try to explain: e.g. Senator X knows that the Caesar violated the Constitution, but since he's loyal to the Caesar or because he thinks he will gain political benefits by supporting the Caesar, he won't impeach the Megas who is Caesar. That same Senator X might vote for an impeachment of another Megas who violated the Constitution, because the other Megas is not on his side or is just a poor guy without real power or importance It's politics, those in powerful positions can do more then others. OOC I agree 100 % with you: a rule that shouldn't have been broken has been broken, but that's OOC and it's up to TC to make a decision about an appropriate punishiment. I'm sure that a player who goes a step too far in breaking the rules, will face the "Wrath of God", i.e. TC will certainly throw some lightning bolts at that players' avatar...

[Privateerkev]

Well, in Mak's opinion there is more than enough reason to impeach. If the Emperor wants, we can get an emergency session underway and put the Caesar on trial.

As for myself, I just want the rules followed. They weren't. And if we are going to make the rules "unbreakable" then they need to be enforced.

If people want to keep that part OOC, I totally understand. But to me, there are more than enough IC reasons to push for IC punishment.

So, I will go two pronged on this. I will push for an IC punishment for IC reasons. And I will ask us to discuss OOC what to do about a clear violation of the rules and how we can prevent this from happening.

[AussieGiant]

For the record I'm going to keep myself focused on the IC stuff.

TC's the only one in a position to handle the OOC stuff and I'm sure he will handle that with aplomb as usual.

So, lets see if the father is willing to impeach his son...not a strong start for the Impeachment camp but hell, it will be fun.

[Andres]

And fun it is

[Privateerkev]

Watching Apionnas try to defend the Caesar is like watching Jan try to defend Siegfried...

[Dafuge]

I rather like it if rules like that are broken, but there need to be a really good IC reason.

[_Tristan_]

But where to stop ? If this rule is broken today, then tomorrow it will the SoT limitations that could be threatened or our capacity to prevent our avatar from being moved by another player...

Rules are rules... Unless they are not correctly worded and you can find one loophole in them that allows you IC to play on that misunderstanding... But here in the present case, there is non of it...

Ignoramus himself admitted that he pointedly chose to prioritize building and recruitment of certain armies to the detriment of others in contravention with the rules... This needs to be dealt with either IC or OOC...

[Dafuge]

I see what you mean and agree with you.

But one rule has been broken, if it is rectfied and none others happen I see no reason for a big debate.

[Andres]

But where to stop ? If this rule is broken today, then tomorrow it will the SoT limitations that could be threatened or our capacity to prevent our avatar from being moved by another player...

Rules are rules... Unless they are not correctly worded and you can find one loophole in them that allows you IC to play on that misunderstanding... But here in the present case, there is non of it...

Ignoramus himself admitted that he pointedly chose to prioritize building and recruitment of certain armies to the detriment of others in contravention with the rules... This needs to be dealt with either IC or OOC...

Yeah, but IC we can only use IC motivations. At the moment, I don't have any interest in seeing the Caesar removed from the position of Megas

As far as OOC goes, I accept whatever decision TC takes. Out of experience as a mafia host, I know how unpleasant it is to deal with such matters, so let's not make it more difficult for him than necessary.

When you play games, things like this happens. I suggest we wait for TC's ordeal and in the meanwhile continue to have fun.

[AussieGiant]

Indeed PK...it's a gallant reguard action. Something all good generals must do before becoming real men

[Privateerkev]

One of the reasons the rules are set in concrete is because we can actually fight each other. If the Megas can ignore the rules, he can declare civil war, disband everything belonging to everyone who is opposed to him, destroy all buildings in those settlements, and recruit massive armies for himself and his side. Sure he would be impeached but in just one turn, a pissed off Megas can do a massive amount of damage if the Rules did not bind him.

Even with the Rules, the Megas is still massively powerful in civil wars, as we saw in the Test Game. He can freeze recruitment for one side and pump reinforcements into the other.

So, so the game doesn't get wildly off-balance, the Rules flat out need to be followed to the letter. If the Caesar declared war on the Order right now, we'd be toast. And it would partly be because the Megas broke the Rules.

And I would be very very unhappy...

[AussieGiant]

The precedent of break rules knowingly does not help the game. That is clear.

What people are ignoring is post 1644 by Igno.

He's apologised OOC. Which leads me to believe he will not do this again. I could be wrong but lets wait an see.

In my mind it's the IC stuff that needs to be handled, and it is being handled very well at this time. Although one man calling for impeachment is not a landslide by any means.

[_Tristan_]

I concur... I'm not particularly concerned because my avatar is far from having the prerequisites for having his own army but I know I'll be peeved if I was in you situation...

I admit that impeachment may perhaps not be the best solution as it would surely be better to reach an OOC solution if not punishment...

Though Methodios would not be against Ioannis getting impeached...

[Privateerkev]

AG:

Like I said before, OOC I'm doing pretty good. I just want the rules followed and I'll be happy.

IC however I am simply reacting to the situation as Mak would react.

And I think we're up to 3 or 4 people calling for impeachment...

[_Tristan_]

He's apologies OOC. Which leads me to believe he will not do this again. I could be wrong but lets wait an see.

The problem as I see it is that it wasn't some simple overlook of the rule (which could happen) but he pointedly ignored the rule to the detriment of factions he is "in competition" with... And that is sad...

[Ramses II CP]

This is why I fundamentally oppose dealing with it IC, because the same characters who voted for Igno to be Casesar are, naturally, not going to care that he is breaking the rules to favor them. If you take that point of view you need to be careful that you always keep yourself in power, because your protests when the rules are broken against your favor will fall on deaf ears.

As Tristan points out above, if this rule goes by the wayside other rules will follow. It isn't as simple as 'Well, it's just this once, just this one rule, and nobody likes that guy anyway,' you have to ask yourself why any of the rest of us would follow the other rules either. The game will devolve into who can get to the save first to screw over their opponents with outrageous violations, or we'll simply have the Megas doing everything since his access to the save is presumably the start point.

I can immediately think of a few rules that I'd like to test the consequences of breaking, and I think that's the logical next step for all of us. If Igno can do it and get a joking pass, why can't I?

edit: In other news, as the Onion has it, today the Justice department announced that the Justice department had broken the law. The Justice department is reportedly discussing whether or not to idict the Justice department.

http://www.theonion.com/content/amvo...ice_dept_broke

[_Tristan_]

I can immediately think of a few rules that I'd like to test the consequences of breaking, and I think that's the logical next step for all of us. If Ingo can do it and get a joking pass, why can't I?

Yes... I think the last thing we want is to set a precedent...

[Kagemusha]

I think this whole affair is something which is for Tincow to decide.

[Privateerkev]

Yes, if this was an OOC mistake then I would just push for IC consequences. But, this was blatant OOC rule-breaking and needs to be addressed. We're all in competition here and stuff like this unfairly weights things for one side.

It would be like me winning at monopoly because I stole from the bank.

[AussieGiant]

I agree with the hypothetical issues being outlined here. Please know that.

Given the civil war aspect of this game, following the rules are far more important than in the previous game.

Igno broke the rules and said he did with conscious intent. "Burn him at the stake."

He then apologised and he seemed sincere to me. "Perhaps life in prison."

This is the first time. "Definitely a long term in prison."

There are pro's and con's to zero tolerance guy's.

[Ramses II CP]

The precedent of break rules knowningly does not help the game. That is clear.

What people are ignoring is post 1644 by Igno.

He's apologised OOC. Which leads me to believe he will not do this again. I could be wrong but lets wait an see.

In my mind it's the IC stuff that needs to be handled, and it is being handled very well at this time. Although one man calling for impeachment is not a landslide by any means.

FYI if you read that again you'll find that he is apologizing to TC for using the wrong save and causing TC to have to redo all that work, and apologizing to us for slowing down the game. He is specifically not apologizing for violating the rules for IC purposes.

I don't want to be a nitpicker, and I'm trying to keep the tone light (See my previous edit) but I do not have the impression that Igno is remorseful for that act and the amount of support he is getting for breaking the rules makes it unlikely that he would need to be. Expect the same from the next person to break the rules deliberately, even if they don't confess it quite so openly.

[_Tristan_]

Let the punishment fit the crime

[Privateerkev]

Ig was actually quite happy that he tried to find a loophole to get around the army rule. He admitted to recruiting mercs so he didn't have to build Cecil's army.

But he has yet to address the no-construction-before-army-recruitment violation and that is where my real OOC and IC issue lies.

He knowingly and willingly built things before seeing to it that all armies were to legal standards. This is in clear violation of the rules of our game and basically puts the Order in a very precarious IC position with multiple armies bearing down on our provinces.

From what YLC has told me, there is the very real possibility of avatar death as a consquence of Ig's actions.

I don't mind losing avatars because of IC decisions. That is part of the game. But if we lose avatars because rules got broken, well then that just sucks.

[Ramses II CP]

Let me put this out there too, when I was the Chancellor in KotR I had serious doubts about my ability to perform the technical aspects of the job. I screwed up giving the AI money for the first two turns of my Chancellorship, I (possibly) somehow cost NN his avatar in a battle where he didn't die, but was dead afterward, and I cost TC no small amount of work myself. I'm not commenting on Igno's mistakes in any way shape or form because I've been there and made them myself. Given the difficulties of the technical situation right now I think he's done better than I would have.

I did not, however, during the course of my Chancellorship, knowingly violate a single rule. I did not, despite my secret position in the Illuminati, abuse the rules to deny 'our' opponents resources or fair opportunities under the rules. I worked hard to keep an even hand OOC, even while my IC actions and posts were overwhelming malicious towards certain individuals (Ironically one of them was Cecil).

It can be a fine line. It is not, IMHO, acceptable to simply say 'I ignored the line because my character wanted me to.' If I had done so I would've expected to be punished OOC, and certainly would've apologized to the player I'd done it to.

I hope that clears things up, and makes it a little more obvious that I'm not attacking Igno, I just have a very exact idea of what he just did and I consider it to be a wedge into the break down of the whole game.