The Quincux Formation video explanation!!!

[satalexton]

=/ this does work well on the RTW engine, if u do slight adjustsments to suit the engine...

It is so effective infact, when used properly, I can literally cleave the enemy centre into sections when it's the principe's turn for the mosh pit, then a rout when my regrouped hastati move forward to flank these isolated sections.

[dejan07]

Actually when i said engine i thought of ai behavior.Will be possible to implement that in descr_formations_ai.txt somehow?Because i know that RTW is very limited.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't think the video is actually correct. Sure that's one possible interpretation of manipular tactics, but disengaging while in contact with the enemy is difficult bordering on almost impossible. Even in the lulls between combat, it's a recipe for men fleeing.

[Hax]

Quintus, might I ask whether you have fought in massive battles?

[QuintusSertorius]

Quintus, might I ask whether you have fought in massive battles?

No, and neither have any of the modern historians writing on the topic, nor indeed many of the contemporary commentators either.

[||Lz3||]

I don't think the video is actually correct. Sure that's one possible interpretation of manipular tactics, but disengaging while in contact with the enemy is difficult bordering on almost impossible. Even in the lulls between combat, it's a recipe for men fleeing.

look the second video -in the same page-

The problem

The formation presents a problem. Many argue that the legion could not have gone into battle with such large gaps because the enemy would have used them to penetrate the Roman position. Against phalanx formations this tactic could work, but against (Celtic) war bands this tactic would certainly be a disaster; the Celts would pour into the gaps and attack the manipul that stayed in the flank, and would make if almost impossible for the retreating manipul to retreat in order.

In the flash movie at the top of this page I deliberately did not let the phalanx move up. Down here you can see the Celts breaking through.

[Rilder]

I've noticed that the openings don't hurt much in the RTW engine, the enemy will pour through and pretty much get flanked by 3 units.

[Che Roriniho]

Same here. I just keep the openings, well, open, but don't actually attavck them, just stay in guard mode, and let them get completely boned on 3 sides.

[QuintusSertorius]

look the second video -in the same page-

I saw that, which immediately struck me as "that's not the problem". Gaps in your formation isn't an issue; everyone fought with them because otherwise individual bodies of men would turn into an unwieldy mass that can't be controlled. Only difference was the Romans fought with larger intervals than would have been normal to retain the cohesion of individual formations.

Hell, the Romans developed a looser, more open formation precisely to combat fast-moving Gauls, the idea that it would be a disaster is patently wrong. The Gauls don't swarm in and overwhelm, they're broken up and become disheartened through isolation.

No, my problem is this rather complicated looking movement whereby units disengage, march backwards and shift to one side to place themselves behind other units who are now engaging. I really can't see all that dancing around in contact with the enemy being feasible.

[||Lz3||]

then how did the transition worked?

[QuintusSertorius]

then how did the transition worked?

That is the big debate.

[CBR]

then how did the transition worked?

It would be much simpler to let the front units about face and run back. They would not be doing it while in direct contact with enemy units anyway.


CBR

[konny]

then how did the transition worked?

I think, we can exclude any model that would require the entire line of Hastati to move back in the middle of hand-to-hand combat and the enemy patiently waiting until the Principes had proper alinged themselves.

One possiblity would be that the Hastati would be pushed back by the enemy and retreated through the gaps of the Principes. They would be anchored on this second line with the front echolons of the Principes acting as some kind of pillars and the rear echolons as reserves ready to jump into the line where ever the Hastati could not be brought to a halt when passing on the Principes.

Another possibilty would be that the Principes were advanced maniple by maniple replacing single Hastati maniples that had been exhausted or hacked to pieces by the enemy. This might also happen when the Hastati had been able to force the enemy to fall back and the short break in the fighting was used to exchange maniples, either one-by-one or the entire line.

I also think the Romans did not fight with gaps in their line and that the usual display of a deployed Legion is wrong:




As you can see the most left column of the Hastati is not supported by Principes while the Principes on the most right are isolated from the rest of the fromation. It also takes to many manouvers to get the rear echolons into the front line:

1. "Maniple, turn right!"
2. "Forward march!"
3. "Maniple, halt!"
4. "Maniple, turn left!"
5. "Forward march!"
6. "Maniple, halt!"

That way each maniple of Hastati is supported by a maniple of Principes and each maniple of Principes is covered by a maniple of Hastati. And forming lines is way eayser:



1. "Forward march!"
2. "Maniple, halt!"

[zooeyglass]

=/ this does work well on the RTW engine, if u do slight adjustsments to suit the engine...

It is so effective infact, when used properly, I can literally cleave the enemy centre into sections when it's the principe's turn for the mosh pit, then a rout when my regrouped hastati move forward to flank these isolated sections.

i've been finding that a simple shift+3 on a grouped selection of hastati/principes sets them up in a fairly effective 2 line formation, excellent for the second line to pepper javelins over the heads of the front line, as they (the front line) engage with the enemy. doesn't always work, and can lead to some envelopment, but is a fairly standard formation for me, with archers behind and cavalry flanking.