Some Laptop Questions

[TevashSzat]

I'm thinking of getting a gaming laptop for a while now, yes you guys can all laugh at me and whatnot, but I am not getting a desktop and carrying it around anymore; it is simply too much of a pain to unplug everything and reset everything everytime

Anyways, before I buy it I just have a couple of questions:

1) How does laptop videocards compare to normal desktop ones, ie how would the nVidia GeForce Go 8600M GT 512MB DDR2 16X PCI Express compare to a desktop GeForce 8600M GT?

2) Most laptops I've looked at are widescreen; does it pose much of an issue with most modern games with the streching or do most modern games support widescreen resolutions now?

3) I am probably going to get 4 gigs of RAM just because I can and RAM is relatively cheap. That means a 64 bit OS too and I've heard some bad things about 64 bit Vista and its ability to run some games. What are they and have most of the issues with it been fixed in SP 1?

4) Are Solid State Harddrives worth the extra money? If I don't get them, I'm just gonna stick with a 7200 rpm one

[LittleGrizzly]

Im too incompetent too answer your questions but i bought a laptop for gaming and its great, i can play games or surf the net wherever i want to in the house... on the toilet... in the bath... whilst making food.... whilst lying in bed (my personal favourite) i also use it as a portable dvd player, all the time we watch movies on my laptop in my friends car, i think a laptop is great myself, you get less bang for your buck but you can bang almost anywhere you want to !

With some businesses hosting free wi-fi networks as well you can surf the net on your own laptop whilst out and about, or you could just get on those mobile internet connections and use it wherever you want.

One piece of advice as well, if your going to be carrying it around a lot some kind of insurance might be a good idea as thier easily damaged but not easily replaceable parts...

[Lemur]

1) How does laptop videocards compare to normal desktop ones, ie how would the nVidia GeForce Go 8600M GT 512MB DDR2 16X PCI Express compare to a desktop GeForce 8600M GT?

See for yourself. General rule is that engineers are focused on heat and energy savings when they make a laptop part, so performance is going to suffer.

2) Most laptops I've looked at are widescreen; does it pose much of an issue with most modern games with the streching or do most modern games support widescreen resolutions now?

Go have a gander. My understanding is that to be certified as "Games for Windows" a game must be compatible with widescreen. So we have that to thank the whole failed GfW initiative for, if nothing else.

3) I am probably going to get 4 gigs of RAM just because I can and RAM is relatively cheap. That means a 64 bit OS too and I've heard some bad things about 64 bit Vista and its ability to run some games. What are they and have most of the issues with it been fixed in SP 1?

Once again, if a game is certified for "Games for Windows," it should be Vista 64 compatible. Then again, Microsoft has a long history of jacking around their own certification programs, so your mileage may vary. XP games should be playable, to the best of my knowledge, although you may have to do some fidgeting with permissions. And don't forget you can run games in compatibility mode.

4) Are Solid State Harddrives worth the extra money? If I don't get them, I'm just gonna stick with a 7200 rpm one

At the moment, no, they are not. I have yet to see a test that shows a compelling speed increase from SSDs, although they do help with battery life, if that's your bag.

Another thought -- what you really want sounds like a luggable, not a classic laptop. They used to make real luggables, looked like suitcases with desktop PC parts and an LCD screen that folded into the lugging. Anybody know if these are still being made? Got a link to a manufacturer? 'Cause a lot of people who wind up buying laptops do so because they want to work on two different desks, not because they're road warriors, and I think for gaming a classic luggable would make way more sense.

[Husar]

Concerning Vista 64bit, most of my newer games run on it, with older games you may get some problems, since the next Microsoft OS will only come in a 64bit version I would recommend most developers to make their games compatible with a 64bit OS anyway, don't know if any of them listen to me though.

Concerning SSDs, lately I read that in many cases they even reduce battery life, mainly because they use the same amount of energy all the time, they know only on or off, while HDDs can have several energy saving modes etc and will only peak out during certain actions. But somneone tested it and sometimes the same laptop would last an hour or so less with an SSD inside.
Concerning, speed, it seems to depend a lot on whether you read, write, what brand the SSD is and whether it is an SLC design(expensive but fast, ten times the lifetime of MLC) or an MLC design(cheaper, slower, can die really fast and not recommended to install an OS on). some of them really leave even those WD velociraptors behind, especially when reading many small files, because they have ay lower access times. IIRC MTron have some of the best in their portfolio at the moment while some others do not really live up to their specifications. also consider that an SSD will pretty much die after a certain amount of writes to each sector, it may be possible to still read the data but not to write any anymore, this is why one should not install an OS on MLC(multi level cell) designs because they allow for some 10000 writes only while SLC(single level cell) usually allows for ten times as much, perhaps more if technology advances, but an OS with it's swapfiles etc. will usually use up those writes faster than if you use it just to drop some data onto it, also keep in mind that Vista will just start defragmenting your HDD now and then when the PC is idle and SLCs are also considerably faster than MLCs, but they cost twice as much or more per GB usually.

So far I'd say stay away from SSDs, especially for a laptop since I suppose they are keen to put MLCs into them because of the lower price, unless you're going to get some elite super duper laptop and they specifically meniton it has an SLC design, but even then it might just drain a lot of power.

[Quirinus]

2) Most laptops I've looked at are widescreen; does it pose much of an issue with most modern games with the streching or do most modern games support widescreen resolutions now?

I just got a laptop with widescreen about a month ago, and one thing I've learned is: no. For starters, games like RTW claim to support widescreen (the option is there) but all it really does is to stretch the original resolution waay out of proportion to fit the screen. Those games that do support widescreen, typically the newer games, are too laggy to be run on the entire widescreen anyway. So now I play my games with a (sometimes huge) black border. It's actually not too bad once you get used to it, but all that extra screen space is useless, you might be better off getting a smaller-screened computer, eh?

So I'd say if you're looking at a laptop for mainly gaming purposes, avoid widescreen at all costs.

[TevashSzat]

I just got a laptop with widescreen about a month ago, and one thing I've learned is: no. For starters, games like RTW claim to support widescreen (the option is there) but all it really does is to stretch the original resolution waay out of proportion to fit the screen. Those games that do support widescreen, typically the newer games, are too laggy to be run on the entire widescreen anyway. So now I play my games with a (sometimes huge) black border. It's actually not too bad once you get used to it, but all that extra screen space is useless, you might be better off getting a smaller-screened computer, eh?

So I'd say if you're looking at a laptop for mainly gaming purposes, avoid widescreen at all costs.

The problem is that I have been unable to find any laptops with normal resolution. Thats simply because it is easier to fit a 16:10 screen ration on a laptop screen since it corresponds with the keyboard dimensions better

[Husar]

Most newer games should support widescreen very well, especially shooters. And for the games that don't, I do not really see the problem with black bars, I could just as well complain about the black frame of my notebook.

[Lemur]

Those games that do support widescreen, typically the newer games, are too laggy to be run on the entire widescreen anyway.

Here's the real problem, and it's nothing to do with widescreen. Most laptops have too much screen for their video card from a gamer's perspective. Think about it — the more screen real estate you're filling up, the more graphic power you need. Even the dimmest gamer understands that playing Crysis at 640x480 is a different animal from running it at 1440x900. And the "luggable" laptops have screens at much higher resolutions than that.

And yet the graphics cards that go into laptops are gimped by the requirement for low heat and low energy. You see where this is going, right? Big, wide screens with millions of pixels to fill, wimpy graphics cards trying their best not to overheat in a closed environment ... do I need to spell it out?

[Lemur]

Concerning SSDs ...

Interestingly, no sooner did we start talking about SSDs in the forum than Ars Technica did an article on shake-ups in the SSD world. Seems the hardware manufacturers are less-than-pleased with the OS support they're getting.

Samsung is taking the matter a step further by including software and operating systems in its push for a more SSD-friendly computing market. To this end, Samsung says its engineers are in talks with Microsoft about SSD support in Vista. Presumably, the effort is to make Windows cognizant of the kind of device it is accessing, so that different optimizations can be applied and perhaps different file systems used for SSDs and HDDs. Microsoft is already in similar talks with Sun about including SSD optimizations in ZFS, which is supported in Solaris and BSD and will be supported in Apple's upcoming 10.6 "Snow Leopard" OS.

There's good detail in the article about exactly how hard drive optimizations make zero sense for SSD drives ... I know, it seems intuitive and obvious, but I guess some people felt it needed to be proved.

[Quirinus]

Most newer games should support widescreen very well, especially shooters. And for the games that don't, I do not really see the problem with black bars, I could just as well complain about the black frame of my notebook.

I don't actually mind the black bars overmuch myself, just saying that if you're getting a laptop mainly for gaming, might as well save some money and buy one with a smaller screen.

The problem is that I have been unable to find any laptops with normal resolution. Thats simply because it is easier to fit a 16:10 screen ration on a laptop screen since it corresponds with the keyboard dimensions better

My laptop has the dimensions, but it's widescreen to accomodate a webcam above the screen.

[Whacker]

I don't actually mind the black bars overmuch myself, just saying that if you're getting a laptop mainly for gaming, might as well save some money and buy one with a smaller screen.

Bold underlined emphasis mine. That's always the first mistake to begin with. Never ceases to amaze me that people do this, and 99% of the time they have nothing approaching a "real" need for a laptop to begin with. One pays so much more and gets so much less, which on top of that becomes obsolete that much quicker, and it's not upgradeable at all really.

[SwordsMaster]

On a slightly related note, I'd like your advice on getting a high-performance laptop also:

My reasons are that because of my job I travel A LOT, so a desktop machine for gaming is out of the question.

Therefore: my budget is about 2000€, and my requirement is that it runs ETW smoothly, and is no bigger than 17' - otherwise it really isn't a laptop anymore.

So there, I'm admitting not to know everything and asking for help. What do you experts suggest?

[Lemur]

As I've been saying, most laptops have too much screen for their videocard, at least from a gamer's perspective. So I would go wit ha 15" laptop, not a 17". That's for starters.

This would be an example of a well-balanced gaming laptop. You can even get it with XP!

[SwordsMaster]

As I've been saying, most laptops have too much screen for their videocard, at least from a gamer's perspective. So I would go wit ha 15" laptop, not a 17". That's for starters.

This would be an example of a well-balanced gaming laptop. You can even get it with XP!

That one looks nice - pity about the very small graphic card selection and lack of delivery to europe... Are there any websites you would recommend that might deliver to ireland?

[TevashSzat]

Well, I've been researching alot of them right now and I think 2000 euro is more than enough to get a top end one. My budget is probably gonna be $1500-2000 and I've been able to find some really nice ones. I'm probably not buying one right now, but I like Vigor Gaming and this is probably the one that I would get if I got one right now:

Ares



PROCESSOR Intel® Core™2 Duo Mobile Processor T9300 at 2.50 GHz, 800MHz FSB, 6M Cache
NOTEBOOK COLOR Black
MB CORE LOGIC Intel PM965 + ICH8-M Chipset w/800MHz FSB
SCREEN SIZE 15.4" WXGA 1280x800 ClearView Glossy-Glass Wide Screen TFT LCD Display
MEMORY 4GB Kingston HyperX SODIMMKHX5300S2LLK2/4G CL4 DDR2 667MHz Memory (2 X 2048MB)
TURBO MEMORY None.
HARD DRIVE 200GB Ultra Performance S-ATA150 7200 RPM Hard Drive
VIDEO CARD nVidia GeForce Go 8600M GT 512MB DDR2 16X PCI Express DirectX 10 Ready
OPTICAL DRIVE Internal 8X Super Multi DVD+/-R/RW (4X+DL) + 24X CDRW Drive
RECORDING SOFTWARE Bundled DVD/CDRW Software
SOUND High Definition Azalia 7.1 8 Channel 3D Digital Audio w/2 Speakers
WIRELESS NETWORK WiFi Wireless Intel 3945 802.11a/b/g Wireless Card
BLUETOOTH Internal Bluetooth Module
NETWORK PORT Built-in Gigabit 10/100/1000 Mbps NIC
MODEM 56K Modem with V.90 Technology
I/O PORTS 4 USB, Firewire, VGA, Express Card Slot, and 4-in-1 Card reader for MMC/SD/MS/MS PRO
CAMERA Intergrated 2.0M High-Resolution Digital Video Camera
SECURITY Integrated Fingerprint Reader for Data Security
OPERATING SYSTEM Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic 64-bit w/Original DVD
OPTIONAL MOUSE None.
EXTERNAL FLOPPY DRIVE None.
DIMENSIONS 14.25" Width X 11.25" Depth X 1.5"~1.7" Height. 7.0lbs.
MOBILE TRANSPORT Free Mobile Transport Bag (MSRP $69.99)
SERVICE Standard 1 Year Limited Parts and Labor Warranty
EXTRA BATTERY None.
STORAGE MEDIA None.
SOFTWARE BUNDLE None.
ADDITIONAL SOFTWARE None.
Price: $1556.00

Some thoughts on some boutique sellers:

Alienware: IMO, used to be very good until acquired by Dell
Falcon Northwest: Top end, but unless you got 5,000 bucks to spare, don't bother
Voodoo: Just aquired by HP, booo. Envy is basically the pc equivalent of Mac Air. Its actually smaller than the Mac too
Velocity Micro: Pretty good, pricing is not bad either
Vigor Gaming: IMO, they give you a great bang for your buck. Very competetive pricing

[Lemur]

That one looks nice - pity about the very small graphic card selection and lack of delivery to europe... Are there any websites you would recommend that might deliver to ireland?

I'll look into it for you, but don't forget you can always have a trusted friend in the U.S.A. take delivery and then ship it over to the Emerald Isle.

If either ibuypower.com or cyberpower.com ship to Yurup, they would be good options.

-edit-

As for the "small" graphics selection, the current top of the line is the 9800-M GTX. If you can find that card in a 15.4" laptop, and get it with Windows XP (10%–20% faster than Vista in games), you will have an unbridled gaming beast.

-edit of the edit-

Here you go, this is the droid you're looking for. 15.4" screen, top-end graphics card, ships with XP if you ask nicely, and the company has offices in the United Kingdom, which implies they'll sell to you.

You're welcome. And kids, remember, don't game on a laptop unless you have no other choice. Listen to your Uncle Whacker like good little scamps.

-edit of the edit of the edit-

Here's another U.K. vendor, offering a very good gaming laptop. Remember to ask for Windows XP, or you'll regret it. I fitted one out with all of the gaming goodies — big 7200 RPM hard drive, Windows XP, the best 9800 graphics chip, the lowest-resolution screen, and it clocked in at £1464.67. I'm hoping that's good.

[SwordsMaster]

Lemur, thanks for that. I officially owe you a pint. Let me know when you want to collect.

PS: How can you actually order on the Clevo site?

[Lemur]

I've no idea if you can actually order from the Clevo site, but nevermind them, the second link had even better gaming laptops.

[SwordsMaster]

Ok, this is going to sound like i'm taking the piss, but I found out today that in all likelihood I won't be in Ireland long enough to get a laptop delivered.

So does anyone know of any sites that would deliver to Johannesburg, South Africa?

[Lemur]

It may take years and years, but I will find a way to kill you.

[Whacker]

Epic thread delivers. All hail our Lord Prosimian, may his reign last long past his prison sentence for aggravated assault and murder!

[SwordsMaster]

It may take years and years, but I will find a way to kill you.

Damn! He knows where i live!

How about I post you that pint from South Africa?

In any case, if there are no candidate sites, I can get it when I return, in a few months... (leaving the timeframe vague as to distract potential assaulters)

[Lemur]

Okay, now that I've recovered from the shock and awe of learning that all of my research was pointless, I'm just going to ask the obvious -- does Dell ship to SA? If so, since Dell and Alienware are now making the beast with two backs, you should be able to order a 15" laptop from Alienware which would be suitable for gaming. They offer a 15" model with the 8800M GTX, which should be adequate for some time.

Otherwise, I really, truly think you might be better off having a Widow PC shipped to someone in the States, and forwarded to you in Mozambique. You'll save a ton of money. All you need is a non-criminal contact in the U.S.A., and that should not be an insurmountable obstacle.

[SwordsMaster]

It appears that the Dell Africa capital is Johannesburg, so they should deliver... but browsing their SA site, it seems geared towards large businesses rather than personal customers, and I can't find where are the personal orders...

Anyway, thanks for all the help. I'll try and coordinate with my US contacts and see what their availability is.

[Quirinus]

Bold underlined emphasis mine. That's always the first mistake to begin with. Never ceases to amaze me that people do this, and 99% of the time they have nothing approaching a "real" need for a laptop to begin with. One pays so much more and gets so much less, which on top of that becomes obsolete that much quicker, and it's not upgradeable at all really.

I dunno about TevashSzat, but I bought a laptop and not a desktop because I study out of town, and go back home for the holidays-- can't lug a whole set of desktop around, I imagine quite a few students have "gaming" laptops for this reason as well. 99% is an exaggeration, much?

[SwordsMaster]

Just to avoid being murdered by Lemur's henchmen, I'm letting him know I'll probably be in NY around Christmas, so I've postponed the purchase of the laptop until then. Besides I also thought I'd want one with a spanish keyboard layout.

Probably a good thing too, to buy it during holiday and not work days...

[JR-]

i would not buy a gaming machine with less than the equivalent power to a Geforce 9600GT, which means either:
9800M GTS -
http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_9800m_gts.html

or:
an AMD/ATI 3870M