The greatest human tragedy of all time

[Meneldil]

When we were under a nobility we were still in a nation-state, though in a different form to what we consider it today. As for religion - it is because of nation-states that it has achieved enough power to cause people to die for it.

Not true, and not true.

Nation-state is widely considered as a creation of the modern era, and as such, do not include feudal state, tribal groups and so on.

And we all know that people have been willing to kill themselves over a religious issue way before the modern era.

I think you're confusing state and nation here. Both are two really different notions.

No it wasn't, but Nation States have allowed for the industrialisation of killing.

I disagree aswell.

The Ottoman Empire was in 1917 all but a nation-state (Empire being almost the antithesis of nation-state), yet it's responsible for the first large-scall genocide of the 20th century.
Furthermore, the world has known large-scale genocide in the past aswell. The fact that Mongols or Conquistadores didn't have death camps doesn't make their slaughter less hideous.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The greatest human tragedy of all time is the deliberate, intentional, planned, institutionalized spreading of ignorance through the use of propaganda, lies, irrational arguments, misleading data, false assumptions, and superstitious belief.

What begins at childhood, people are indoctrinated to believe falsehoods or unproven opinions as fact. Examples of which include religious-based intolerance, racism, or faith-based mythology. A moral code is instructed to them which does not include humility, compassion, self-doubt, and non-aggression. Children are taught, in most societies (including mine in the United States) to fear, suspect, doubt, and hate others for their differing appearances, cultures, and philosophies.

Fear and suspicion of Muslims, of Communism, of Atheism, of Mormonism; in some societies, the fear and hatred of Jews, of Serbians, of Croatians, of Catholics, Protestants, and even Pagans. The hatred between Hindus and Muslims, Buddhists and Muslims, Christians and other faiths, begins at childhood. This is evident because if a person who was taught nothing of religion encounters a person of faith, they may be confused as to why that person believes in such ostensibly ridiculous things, but at the same time does not fear or hate them.

Fear and hate are taught, en masse, by religious extremists. This is not limited to those who believe, but also to some extent by those who do not believe. Militant atheism causes hatred of those with faith.

However, it is not merely ignorance and fear and hate which is taught about religion, but about race. Which is an absurdly stupid concept. At least with religion there may be an argument for it's abolishment, for some faiths teach rituals which are harmful to the human body, and teach abuse towards women and child abuse. However, a person's "race" never hurt anyone.

Much like fearing someone for having green eyes, racism is an irrational, ignorant fear of someone for their genetic diversity from one's self. At the same time, we do not fear dogs or cats, and they have a MUCH wider genetic diversity from ourselves. Yet we fear those with less than 1 tenth of 1 percent genetic deviation. Regardless where you live on earth or what genetic makeup you have, you are more than 99% the same as every other human being who ever lived.

Also consider European racism, for example. While one might fear black people, as an example, for looking different from a European (a silly reason to fear someone), Adolf Hitler looked exactly like an average European man, and he ended up killing far more Europeans than anyone else. Sounds like Europeans should fear themselves, if they have anyone to fear. And even so, there is no reason to judge someone for their genetics. If Adolf Hitler had a son or a grandson, can you guarantee that child would be an evil genocidal maniac?

Has anyone here ever been related to a criminal or a murderer? Somewhere down the line, I am afraid we are ALL related to someone who killed. Should we fear one another for the crimes of our ancestors? This is why current race relations between Muslims and Hindus, Whites and Blacks, etc, being as low as they are, are based upon crimes committed in the past, and which causes crimes to be committed in the present, and will inspire crimes to be committed in the future, because people refuse to let things go.

The cycle of revenge traps us in racism, when those old hatreds should have died with the people who caused the crimes, and the people who were victims thereof. But teaching our children ignorance, racism, and hate, allows that same wicked ignorance to proliferate to a new generation.

The indoctrination of children, in general, whether political, racial, religious, or secular, forces an ideology onto an unwilling minor who is not mature enough to make decisions for themselves. They are not at the age of consent.

Teaching political, religious, or any other kind of ideology to a child is a crime, in my view. When a person is old enough to make a rational choice for themselves, then offering to teach them your viewpoint is acceptable. Teaching a child to pray and worship and participate in rituals, teaching them who their "enemies" are, telling them of politics when it is none of their business, forcing your viewpoint, your hatreds, your ignorance, your superstitions, your faith (right or wrong) onto a child removes their ability to say no, removes their ability to make a choice, to choose to become who they are.

Because hatred and ignorance will disappear over time, forgotten by the mind, and killed off by the natural event of death, the only reason it exists today is because there is a concerted, intentional, organized and conscious effort to spread ignorance.

Religious institutions, political propaganda machines, and intolerant parents forcing false, unsubstantiated, and hateful doctrine onto a new generation, this is the machination which drives human ignorance from generation to generation to generation. This allows the religious superstitions to not only survive, but to grow and claim ever more people, convincing them they must give their wealth and their rational thought, their skepticism, their alternative viewpoints, their objections, their reasoning, and surrender them all to a religious institution. Or, it allows racist groups to spread their hatred to innocent children. Or it allows political machines to remain in power decades after they have continued to fail the people who elected them.

It all stems from conscious spreading of ignorance, fear, lies, and hatred.

Militancy, is irrational use of force to spread an irrational ideology. Any ideology which requires being spread by gunpoint is obviously being rejected by the people who wanted not to believe it, but are now forced to. Most major religions were spread by warfare and conquest, forced conversion, inquisition, crusade and jihad, or state-sponsored conversion. Most major prejudices, hatreds, and superstitions were spread by militants, by irresponsible parents threatening their children with punishment if they did not learn their scripture, or repeat their vile hatred of racial minorities.

Militant hatred, forced ignorance... we see how it spreads.

Now look; as the ignorance festers, there is only one outcome. An entire generation of minds poisoned by falsehoods, lies, fears, and superstitions, bending to the will of their controlling overlords, be they religious, political, or economic; Now they listen to their masters who control their ignorant minds, and they blame others for their problems.

They ignorantly blame their lot in life on people they have never met, who have done them no wrong. They become hungry, greedy, and they hate what others have, because they ignore the fact that they are living and breathing without that which others have. They are convinced that the only way that they can live a prosperous life, and provide for their children, is to take up arms and destroy their enemies, and take their lands, their possessions, their women, their natural resources.

And so begins war, where military propaganda machines churn out obedient and loyal followers of The Doctrine, be it political, religious, or racist. These otherwise fine human beings, programmed since birth to believe. To Believe, not to think. To Believe, not to study, to believe, not to rationalize. To believe, not to question. To believe, not to choose.

These obedient, loyal believers... indoctrinated by ignorance, motivated by desire, influenced by peer pressure and repeated lies by their puppet masters, fed the doctrine, and forced to believe it... these loyal obedient slaves of human ignorance are then taught only how to destroy, how to maim, how to kill, how to conquer, how to cause suffering.

Not how to resolve disputes. Not how to disarm without harming. Not how to coexist. Not how to feel compassion.

These slaves of human ignorance, who have been fed everything they need to believe and nothing they need to know, proceed to destroy humanity.

Thus the virus of ignorance has taken control of the human mind, the human body, the human race, and has wrought it's fatal consequences.


Racial wars, religious wars, political wars, territorial wars, resource wars, fear wars. Instead of enlightened cooperation, defense, and resolution of disputes, there is only death. Only killing, murder, and atrocity. And those who command the two sides of this battle all believe the same thing; In order to keep the power they have, they must write the history books, and indoctrinate another generation of innocent people, having annihilated one generation after another.

Now look at the death toll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

World Wars, Chinese "civil" wars, wars of conquest and oppression. The Holocaust, The Great Leap Forward, the conquest of Native Americans, the Atlantic slave trade, the Arab slave trade. The Crusades, the Inquisitions, the spread of Islam and Christianity. The religious wars of China, the suppression of minorities and other faiths, the forced conversion of the Zoroastrians, the European conquests of Africa, possession of India and China...

All based upon the concept of concerted, intentional, indoctrination of human ignorance, lies, fears, and hatreds, forced upon young innocent children. Generation after generation destroyed through racism, through conquest, through slavery, through religious conversion, through holy war.

Conscious ignorance. This is the greatest plague against humanity that has ever been, or ever will be. If it caused death alone, it would be almost gentle and healing, for those who are ignorant or choose to be ignorant would be wiped out. But this plague, this virus of the mind, conscious ignorance, irrational fear, irrational belief, militancy and extremism, this spreads from one innocent mind to another, until the entire human race is destroyed in a final holocaust.

[KarlXII]

Askthepizzaguy:

[Meneldil]

I beg to differ on a few different points :

Firstly, modern racism is IMO not ethnical, but cultural. ie. it's not aimed toward a specific race/skin color, but toward a specific culture.
Does it make it any less stupid ? No, but nonetheless, I don't think racism can be summarized as "I hate these guy 'cause he has green eyes".

Secondly, sure, none should impose its value to a child, at least till he can make a rational choice. Thing is, IMO, 80% of the population is simply not capable to make such a choice (that is, considering that rational choice even exist). That's why propaganda and endoctrinment won't disapear anytime in a near future.
Even if it was possible to educate the population (which would be contrary to the elite's interests), I think most people wouldn't care. Being educated and enlightened requires a lot of work and time, and is in a way, exhausting.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Friendly Rebuttal:

In some cases, you may be right. But the plain fact is, there are racist groups bent on hating black people for being black, not because they dislike gangsta rap or because they have a grudge against Africa for some reason.

I would say it's not always the case, but there is still plenty of RACE-based racism left. I wish I were wrong, but I'm not, unfortunately.

Your second point, to summarize: "ignorance is bliss", right?

I dunno. This world doesn't seem blissful to me. It's not actually blissful, but being ignorant is like being drunk, it incapacitates you and numbs your brain.

[Paradox]

You never cease to amaze me, pizzaguy.

[Xipe Totec]

I think Askthepizzaguy has more or less hit the nail on the head. There has been a constant struggle between ideas and ideologies throughout human history. People have been kept divided to serve the ends of the elite who rule. Their most powerful tool has always been ignorance and falsehood. Their greatest fear is the spread of truth and knowledge.

If enough people know enough about enough the big lies will crumble in the face of the realisation of what is really quite obvious to many of us now. There is no such thing as a race and never was. Learning enough about anthropology and genetics makes that obvious. There is no logical reason to expect an afterlife, but it sure helps the few to cheat the many. Nations are simply arbitrary divisions thrown up by historical accidents, not some expression of a unique biological identity. Competition between economies is not some inevitable Darwinian process, rather it is some twisted game of roulette to amuse the ruling classes and ignores the misery and frustration heaped upon the majority of humanity.

However it is not inevitable that we will remain ignorant forever. They control as much of the media as possible and daily brainwash the masses with advertising and propaganda. That's why most people wish only to believe what they are told, do what they are told, buy what they are told, and reap the rich rewards of over-eating and over-borrowing.

Perhaps the internet will prove to be the greatest tool ever devised for spreading counter arguments which unite people and enrich their lives. People may one day comprehend what marvels they are and how much happier we all could be if we work together for the good of all rather than against one another for the benefit of a few. I'd like to hope that will be the future for humanity, because the alternative is escalating strife over dwindling resources and perhaps a holocaust of a world war we may not survive.

[Strike For The South]

Im changing my vote. Self richeousness

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The Ottoman Empire was in 1917 all but a nation-state (Empire being almost the antithesis of nation-state), yet it's responsible for the first large-scall genocide of the 20th century.

You mean 1915, I guess, the Armenian Genocide. (That alone deserves a nomination for the thread title.)

The ruling oligarchs, namely the Ittihad-Terakki regime of what remained of the empire, who had absolute dictatorial power since 1913, with an old figurehead of an emperor signing the death warrant even of his own brother-in-law under the gunpoint of Enver, the chief of the oligarchs and the mind behind the genocide, was far into the process of transforming the ruin of the empire into an ethno-religious "nation state". In 1915, the Ottoman Empire was no more an empire than the Empire of Central Africa. The Balkan countries had already seceded or lost in war, Syria and Iraq already under invasion and the most important, populous and influential non-Muslim community being massacred or mass-expelled.

Indeed, the current regime of the "nation state" of Turkey is a direct continuation of the Ittihad-Terakki dictatorship and not of the empire, which had all but nominally gone down in 1908 when they had first taken over the rule.

Your point is moot.
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[Sarathos]

Put me down for religion.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Put me down for religion.

Although I would suggest that belief (or hope) that there is a God or Gods is not in and of itself too destructive, what people add to those beliefs almost always is. If one presumes that there is a God, I suppose it gives people hope that if they do well in this life they will be rewarded by the eternal judge and be granted everlasting peace and harmony. While I think this is a bit too optimistic to believe wholeheartedly, as much as I'd like to believe it, I do not think that it can be disproven that there is a God, and so therefore it's even in the realm of legitimate theory. How did the universe get here, and why? God seems as good an explanation as any.

But what happens when people convince other people that they know God, they speak to God, they rub elbows with this God, and play Parcheesi with God? There are always going to be stupid people who believe it. (Part of that whole ignorance concept I describe above) Then they stand up and say the following things:

1. "There is only one written word of God, and it just so happens I have a copy of it, in my own handwriting no less."

2. "If you do not believe that this is the written word of God, he will burn you forever in a lake of fire where you will writhe in agony for all eternity, you worthless vile sinner... but he loves you."

3. "If you take up arms against the infidels, you will be rewarded by Allah by 72 virgin slave girls"

4. "It is right to mutilate your infant child's genitals, and if you refuse, he will not be allowed in God's special club for chosen people."

5. "It is perfectly acceptible for a man to divorce his wife by saying 'I divorce you'. Women, on the other hand, need the approval of their family."

6. "A woman's testimony is worth half what a man's testimony is."

7. "God is capable of destroying entire cities filled with innocent women and children because the city has homosexual men in it"

8. "God might ask you to kill your own son, and if you attempt to go through with it, he will reward you by making you his chosen messenger."

9. "Moses, the most pious man of them all in the eyes of God, killed an Egyptian when no one was looking. This means that murder is ok under certain circumstances." (Exodus 2:12)

10. "God can indiscriminately kill all the firstborn children in Egypt to prove a political point. He's such a nice guy."

11. "Only virgins are worthy of marriage. The younger, the better."

12. Exodus 2:20 says that it's "OK to kill the 4 billion people on Earth who do not believe in the Biblical God."

13. "I will bring evil unto all Flesh, sayeth the LORD" (Jer 45:5)

I could continue, but there isn't enough space for all the criticisms I have.

Oh yeah. These are the religions I want to follow. Let's make sure we always do the following:

1. Attend church and pay the nice holy men a tithe so that they can say how condemned to hellfire we are for being such nasty sinners. (What do they use our charity for? They build gold-encrusted churches and gilded Bibles and fancy cathedrals to convince more people to cough up money)

2. Trust pastors and preachers, for they would never lie, cheat, steal, or molest children. (Right!)

3. Elect an "infallible" man to take the place of Jesus, and wear offical robes and a pretty crown, and lay down even more edicts he received in a phone call he had with Jehovah this afternoon. (By the way, these certain infallible men have started Holy wars, killed men on the battlefield, and were defeated in battle. And later Popes contradicted earlier Popes, because they were ever more infallible. And some Popes had children out of wedlock, and committed sins. Hmmmm...)

4. Pray five times a day, because five is the magical number of the mighty Allah. Six would be too many, and four would make you an infidel worthy of being smoted.

5. If you meet an infidel, cut his throat.

You get the idea. There's far more, but I have something else I want to say.

It's not just the Abrahamic faiths that deserve to be shunned. The whole "untouchable" thing in Hindu culture is an abomination. The practice of female circumcision in African and Arabic culture, inspired by a mix of African tradition and Islamic law, is a horrendous travesty. The Aztec religion required the ritual human sacrifice of millions of people, a Holocaust in and of itself. Pagan, Wiccan, Vodun, you name it. There's enough criticism for everyone.

Don't get me wrong, anti-religious movements (See: Soviet Russia, China) have caused the deaths of millions too and provided the excuse for many horrendous crimes. It was the militant anti-theist philosophy, spread by mass murder, which was the cause of that. Of course, when you believe in something enough to kill for it, and believe your philosophy is the only true path, then one might say you're acting exactly like an intolerant religious fundamentalist, whose religion just happens to be "anti-religion".

Bottom line: Religion owes us an apology. Big time.

[Decker]

Bottom line: Religion owes us an apology. Big time.

Is it the religion itself or the people that run it?

There's always two sides to the sword(or however that saying goes), and there are both good and bad sides to religion. Many of the time it is the moral basis for which society lives by nowadays, yet then there are those who it up for the rest of us or misuse it for their own purposes which in turn would turn many away as I have witnessed. But unlike you saying Religion owes us an apology, I tend to see it as the crazy that owe US an apology for messing with religion in the first place

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Is it the religion itself or the people that run it?

There's always two sides to the sword(or however that saying goes), and there are both good and bad sides to religion. Many of the time it is the moral basis for which society lives by nowadays, yet then there are those who it up for the rest of us or misuse it for their own purposes which in turn would turn many away as I have witnessed. But unlike you saying Religion owes us an apology, I tend to see it as the crazy that owe US an apology for messing with religion in the first place

Well I could make the distinction between organized religion and personal faith, but I didn't see the need. One person's personal faith is unlikely to change the world for the worse, unless he's a mass murderer or the owner of a nation. However, when someone's faith becomes the faith of the masses, that's when bad stuff starts to happen. It's organized religion which is the culprit.

When one has personal faith, one does not need people to "run" thier religion. However, when one subscribes to one of the major religions and believes that they need to have some guy wearing a dress telling them what to believe, how to act, how to pray, which passages of which book to read; that's when people start to worship what fallible men have come up with, rather than something genuinely spiritual.

One can have religious faith without having to attend some group. And if so, they tend not to cause trouble. It's the big organized faiths which start wars and condemn one another for being heretical.

[Decker]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Well I could make the distinction between organized religion and personal faith, but I didn't see the need. One person's personal faith is unlikely to change the world for the worse, unless he's a mass murderer or the owner of a nation. However, when someone's faith becomes the faith of the masses, that's when bad stuff starts to happen. It's organized religion which is the culprit.

When one has personal faith, one does not need people to "run" their religion. However, when one subscribes to one of the major religions and believes that they need to have some guy wearing a dress telling them what to believe, how to act, how to pray, which passages of which book to read; that's when people start to worship what fallible men have come up with, rather than something genuinely spiritual.

One can have religious faith without having to attend some group. And if so, they tend not to cause trouble. It's the big organized faiths which start wars and condemn one another for being heretical.

Ahhh.... okay. I see what you mean. I was a little confused with what you were saying.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The practice of female circumcision in African and Arabic culture, inspired by a mix of African tradition and Islamic law

It should be clearly known that the so called female circumcision (brutally cutting off the visible part of the clitoris) has absolutely nothing to do with Islamic law. I was outraged last Sunday to hear on an NGC documentary (not one of their best, btw) that a grizzled old sheikh at El-Ezher advocate the contrary. (He had absolutely no proof for his claim but his prideful and arrogant statement.) That man and his likes deserve being dismembered and left to death from bleeding!
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[Askthepizzaguy]

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It should be clearly known that the so called female circumcision (brutally cutting off the visible part of the clitoris) has absolutely nothing to do with Islamic law. I was outraged last Sunday to hear on an NGC documentary (not one of their best, btw) that a grizzled old sheikh at El-Ezher advocate the contrary. (He had absolutely no proof for his claim but his prideful and arrogant statement.) That man and his likes deserve being dismembered and left to death from bleeding!
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http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/438/viewall/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_...igious_aspects

Female genital cutting predates Islam. In Saudi Arabia, in the area known as the Hijaz, where Islam originated, FGC was already being practiced during the lifetime of Muhammad. To call a man a "circumciser of women" was an insult among the pagan Arabs at the time. Female genital cutting is not commanded by the Qur'an and is not practiced by the majority of Muslims. In Egypt, mufti Sheikh Ali Gomaa stated: "The traditional form of excision is a practice totally banned by Islam because of the compelling evidence of the extensive damage it causes to women's bodies and minds."

I am delighted in the extreme to have been proven wrong about something I repeated in error.

Islam itself did not mandate or begin this practice.

However, Islam is not totally innocent, because although they did not originate this practice, at least one Sunni Muslim school mandates this barbarism.

One of the four Sunni schools of religious law, the Shafi'i school, rules that trimming of the clitoral hood is mandatory. Sheikh Faraz Rabbani states, "That which is wajib [obligatory] in the Shafi`i texts is merely slight 'trimming' of the tip of the clitoral hood - prepuce." Contrary to the WHO definition, he states that this practice is not "FGM, nor harmful to the woman or her ability to derive sexual pleasure." He states that "excision, FGM, or other harmful practices" are not permitted. In 1994, Egyptian Mufti Sheikh Jad Al-Hâqq argued that the procedure may not be banned simply on grounds of improper use. The Al-Azhar University in Cairo has issued several fatwas endorsing FGC, in 1949, 1951 and 1981.

So, as you can see, while the Quran does not specifically advocate for it in any way, certain religious Islamic schools do. But Mouzafphaerre is right, Islam itself is not the culprit here.

I even double checked my Quran, and double checked the Skeptics Annotated Quran. If I have overlooked anything, feel free to correct me again.

___________________________________

On a related note, female genital circumcision is among the most horrendous examples of the concept of ignorance I described earlier. Thankfully Mouzafphaerre was here to heal my ignorance regarding Islam as the culprit.

And that is how people are supposed to behave when confronted with their own ignorance.

I enjoy having my ignorance healed.

[naut]

Good posts Askthepizzaguy. I'd have to say pride or as STFS put it:

Self richeousness

[Mouzafphaerre]

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The majority of Kurds (about one fifth of the total population) and the whole of Arabs in TR follow the Shafī school, which I'm not totally ignorant of. Especially the Kurd mullas are extremely strict, dare I say fanatic, about the Shafi ways and none of them either practice or advocate the clit-cutting.

Your Wikipedia quote is apparently taken from the abominable mouth of one of the types of the Ezher professor I told about. It has nothing to do with any established Sunni or Shi'i system. I dislike bragging but I'm well learned enough in religious matters and I can back up my stance with solid reference if needed. They can't. They are simply the toys of damnable tradition and talking in religious disguise.
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[Meneldil]

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Indeed, the current regime of the "nation state" of Turkey is a direct continuation of the Ittihad-Terakki dictatorship and not of the empire, which had all but nominally gone down in 1908 when they had first taken over the rule.

Your point is moot.
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Didn't know that. My knowledge of Turkish history is, I admit, pretty poor, and mostly comming from biased sources.

Organized unreligion

Is there such a thing as organized unreligion ? If you're talking about communism or socialism, or any other late 19th c. political/ideological movement that tried to get rid of religion (such as the French separation between the State and the Church), they're either
- not organized unreligion (communism and socialism weren't specifically thought as tool to fight religion, even though they fought religion in order to achieve their aim)
- not necessarily 'bad' (I'm glad the French governement decided to put and end to reactionary biggots' influence and plots in 1905).

I perfectly see where you're coming from, since religion-bashing is quite a trend nowadays, but even then, I have a hard time seeing what is organized unreligion.