Org Mobile Site
My eldest lemurling, who is seven, has been asking a lot of difficult questions lately. "Aren't we in a war?" "Two? Why don't people talk about it more?" "Why are we in them?" "Are we going to win?" And so on and so forth.
I found myself in the strange position of trying to explain the concept of insurgency and counter-insurgency to my little son at bathtime. "Unexpected" doesn't begin to cover it.
I worry at these moments. If I explain the situation with anything less than total clarity, he's going to repeat some garbled version of what I just said, which fills me with dread. But getting a little kid to understand, really understand some of these concepts and realities stretches my ability to explain to the breaking point.
Here's a rough transcript of my (futile?) attempt to explain insurgency:
So help a lemur out here. If you have kids, have you tried to explain concepts like this to them? How did you go about doing it? If you're still a young'un, do you have any memories of how your mammy or pappy approached this stuff? I'd like to hear some real examples, if at all possible.
And lastly, am i on a fool's errand, trying to explain this sort of thing to a first-grader? He really wants to know, but should I put him off for a bit, let him grow up a little before I try to explain these things?
I found myself in the strange position of trying to explain the concept of insurgency and counter-insurgency to my little son at bathtime. "Unexpected" doesn't begin to cover it.
I worry at these moments. If I explain the situation with anything less than total clarity, he's going to repeat some garbled version of what I just said, which fills me with dread. But getting a little kid to understand, really understand some of these concepts and realities stretches my ability to explain to the breaking point.
Here's a rough transcript of my (futile?) attempt to explain insurgency:
So help a lemur out here. If you have kids, have you tried to explain concepts like this to them? How did you go about doing it? If you're still a young'un, do you have any memories of how your mammy or pappy approached this stuff? I'd like to hear some real examples, if at all possible.
And lastly, am i on a fool's errand, trying to explain this sort of thing to a first-grader? He really wants to know, but should I put him off for a bit, let him grow up a little before I try to explain these things?
I have to say holy ****, because that was some damn good parenting imo. Explain everything, if he doesn't understand tell him time, knowledge and more thinking will provide the answer always.
EDIT: I don't have an memories of such an event, so I can't help you much there.
EDIT: I don't have an memories of such an event, so I can't help you much there.
My parents used to just let me watch the Mclaughlin group. I loved it 
I think it's like any other subject one has to start form the basics to grow a frame of reference.
This is such a difficult one as it requires a decent grasp of several other subjects.
I'd build up from easier examples such as a bog standard war and aftermath and go from there. There are many historical examples where you've got the whole narrative spelt out for you so you can see what happened - e.g. the counter insurgency in Malaysia is one that is a good time in the past and not contentious.
As you say, garbled repeats could end up with dad saying we need to kill all the Muslims to win which could make for an interesting Parent / Teacher meeting...
This is such a difficult one as it requires a decent grasp of several other subjects.
I'd build up from easier examples such as a bog standard war and aftermath and go from there. There are many historical examples where you've got the whole narrative spelt out for you so you can see what happened - e.g. the counter insurgency in Malaysia is one that is a good time in the past and not contentious.
As you say, garbled repeats could end up with dad saying we need to kill all the Muslims to win which could make for an interesting Parent / Teacher meeting...
Given the complexity of the issue, I think you did a good job there Lemur. No kids of my own (yet) but explaining that "we" might not be the good guys is a tough one to get accross...
Originally Posted by alh_p:
[E]xplaining that "we" might not be the good guys is a tough one to get accross...
That isn't even what I was aiming for; I just wanted him to get, on a gut level, what an "insurgency" was, and why it's so difficult to fight.[E]xplaining that "we" might not be the good guys is a tough one to get accross...
He has advanced a stage further than the republicans, who just go "Nuke them all". Very good progress.
Well he did say to kill them all a few times. TotalWar is in his blood!
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr:
Well he did say to kill them all a few times. TotalWar is in his blood!
Indeed, very insightful. Believe it or not, that's a good place to start from. A more idealistic approach would eventually lead to a regression toward this rather than a growth from it; this, you can build upon.Well he did say to kill them all a few times. TotalWar is in his blood!
He'll likely think about it some more. The best thing to do is introduce him to a variety of people during his life. He'll eventually grow out of the kill 'em all phase and learn...which ones to kill. By that, of course, I mean recognize the bad people from the good ones.
Right now he has the 50,000 foot view. Work toward a human terrain team by 18.
He could have said: Nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. That would make Vladimir so proud of his son, Ivan.
Originally Posted by Vladimir:
Right now he has the 50,000 foot view. Work toward a human terrain team by 18.
Oh man, I hope he can achieve humanity a little earlier than that. I don't want to wait eleven years to have a nuanced conversation with my son.Right now he has the 50,000 foot view. Work toward a human terrain team by 18.
Sasaki, how old were you when your parents started letting you watch Mclaughlin Group? If you were a little one, did you feel like you still got something out of it?
Around 8 I think; I don't know that I got anything out of it though. Except that that kind of thing involved talking really fast and interrupting people and using big words and I didn't understand it. I ignored politics till my late teens...maybe as a result :p
Originally Posted by Lemur:
Oh man, I hope he can achieve humanity a little earlier than that. I don't want to wait eleven years to have a nuanced conversation with my son.
Sasaki, how old were you when your parents started letting you watch Mclaughlin Group? If you were a little one, did you feel like you still got something out of it?
You might be waiting 11 years, but then you will be able to have those conversations for the rest of your life. To be honest Lemur, if he gets to that point by 16-18 he is already ahead of the game. Don't forget that many youth are so ignorant about this stuff even until their twenties or more. Trust me, the majority of people I have met at my university don't really think beyond one or two statements they agree with when it comes to many subjects.Oh man, I hope he can achieve humanity a little earlier than that. I don't want to wait eleven years to have a nuanced conversation with my son.
Sasaki, how old were you when your parents started letting you watch Mclaughlin Group? If you were a little one, did you feel like you still got something out of it?
EDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.
You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.
EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.
Hehehe, I remember watching the nightly news as a lad during the Vietnam war. They always had to give out the body count totals like it was a football score. Walter Cronkite also frequently described the VC & NVA as "guerillas", and in my little boy mind I thought they meant gorillas. "Dad, why are they shooting gorillas?"
You're doing a fine job 'splaining Lem. Don't put him off, you're his go to guy for the answers to life's mysteries.
You're doing a fine job 'splaining Lem. Don't put him off, you're his go to guy for the answers to life's mysteries.
Originally Posted by Lemur:
That isn't even what I was aiming for; I just wanted him to get, on a gut level, what an "insurgency" was, and why it's so difficult to fight.
If only there were a version of Mao's "on guerilla warfare" for 8-10 year olds... Actually, I'm very glad there isn't.That isn't even what I was aiming for; I just wanted him to get, on a gut level, what an "insurgency" was, and why it's so difficult to fight.
Originally Posted by Lemur:
Lemurling: So why don't we just kill them all?
You have said several times on this forum that your boy will grow up to rule the world. I believe he is well on his way. Lemurling: So why don't we just kill them all?
My sister had a similar approach to solving the ongoing famine in Africa: better a sudden genocide and rebuild than an ongoing slow lingering death with no solutions in sight... It has a sociopathic logic to it.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
My sister had a similar approach to solving the ongoing famine in Africa: better a sudden genocide and rebuild than an ongoing slow lingering death with no solutions in sight... It has a sociopathic logic to it.
lol still on speaking termsMy sister had a similar approach to solving the ongoing famine in Africa: better a sudden genocide and rebuild than an ongoing slow lingering death with no solutions in sight... It has a sociopathic logic to it.
OT the Anne Frank diary is written from a child's perspective, she isn't angry or bitter, only confused and amazed that this is actually happening. Pretty much asking all existional questions wthwhy-technically.
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk:
My sister had a similar approach to solving the ongoing famine in Africa: better a sudden genocide and rebuild than an ongoing slow lingering death with no solutions in sight... It has a sociopathic logic to it.
That's how I played RTW... Even as the carthaginians, Carthage had to be "purged" every so often.My sister had a similar approach to solving the ongoing famine in Africa: better a sudden genocide and rebuild than an ongoing slow lingering death with no solutions in sight... It has a sociopathic logic to it.
Originally Posted by Lemur:
"Aren't we in a war?"
Yes"Aren't we in a war?"
Originally Posted by Lemur:
"Why are we in them?"
Oil, Money and revenge"Why are we in them?"
Originally Posted by Lemur:
"Are we going to win?"
No"Are we going to win?"
That's as easy as it gets
My lemurling definitely shares my sense of humor. Recently he heard (at school, I think) that we had declared the end of the Iraq war. Sort of. So he asks me, "Isn't that a big deal?"
"Sure, of course," I say.
"So why aren't we having parades and stuff? Don't you have a parade when a war is over?"
"Um, listen, it's complicated. We already declared the thing in Iraq over and won, a long time ago. We had another president then."
"Who?"
"His name was Bush, but you won't remember him. Anyway, he thought the war was over, so he did this big thing, flew onto an aircraft carrier, had big banners, bands playing, the whole set-up. And he declared, basically, that we had won."
"Good! Good!"
"Yes, but there was one problem."
"What?"
"We kept fighting for another eight years."
"EIGHT YEARS?"
"Eight years. So everybody's a little ... umm ... sensitive about declaring victory. We're kinda being mellow about it this time."
[Long pause, then Lemurling begins laughing hysterically.]
"Eight years? Eight years? We fought for eight more years? So he's like, 'It's over,' and eight years? Ha ha ha ha!"
"Yup. And you're only seven years old. So that president's mistake lasted longer than you've been alive. Goofy, huh?"
"Eight years! Wow! Ha ha ha ha!"
"And even now we have thousands of troops there, and who knows when they'll ever come home. So ... no parades this time."
"Sure, of course," I say.
"So why aren't we having parades and stuff? Don't you have a parade when a war is over?"
"Um, listen, it's complicated. We already declared the thing in Iraq over and won, a long time ago. We had another president then."
"Who?"
"His name was Bush, but you won't remember him. Anyway, he thought the war was over, so he did this big thing, flew onto an aircraft carrier, had big banners, bands playing, the whole set-up. And he declared, basically, that we had won."
"Good! Good!"
"Yes, but there was one problem."
"What?"
"We kept fighting for another eight years."
"EIGHT YEARS?"
"Eight years. So everybody's a little ... umm ... sensitive about declaring victory. We're kinda being mellow about it this time."
[Long pause, then Lemurling begins laughing hysterically.]
"Eight years? Eight years? We fought for eight more years? So he's like, 'It's over,' and eight years? Ha ha ha ha!"
"Yup. And you're only seven years old. So that president's mistake lasted longer than you've been alive. Goofy, huh?"
"Eight years! Wow! Ha ha ha ha!"
"And even now we have thousands of troops there, and who knows when they'll ever come home. So ... no parades this time."
Compliments to writing, that is good. Perfect rythem
If I end up half as good a parent as you I'll be a happy man. 
Maybe you could have made it clearer from the start that is is not a case of USA v Afghanistan/Iraq, it does make it sound like a total war scenario where one goes out to obliterate/subdue the other, maybe that's why the Lemurling thought of killing all the Afghans.
Maybe you could have said how a lot of the Afghans were being bullied by the Taliban, and so the US went in to help the ordinary Afghans out? And that Afghans aren't just a single group of people like we usually think of when we think of countries, but they have all sorts of conflicts between themselves like with the Pashtuns and other ethnic groups etc.
Maybe you could have said how a lot of the Afghans were being bullied by the Taliban, and so the US went in to help the ordinary Afghans out? And that Afghans aren't just a single group of people like we usually think of when we think of countries, but they have all sorts of conflicts between themselves like with the Pashtuns and other ethnic groups etc.
Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name:
EDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.
You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.
EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.
You need to calm downEDIT: Example. Was watching the California Gubernatorial Debate the other day. I'm trying to watch it in the tv in my apartments common area, half the time the stoner roommate comes in loud as hell and starts making a big ruckus with some of the female roommates (flirting). Really, really loud talking and laughing. Then he starts making a joke of the whole thing while I am trying to watch (after every single statement no matter what subject he would say something to the tune of "They are both lying! They want to stop me from smoking pot even though it doesn't have any side effects whatsoever!"). Then one of my female roommates takes a look at the tv for about 12 seconds and then says "That ugly guy is going to lose." "Who? Jerry Brown?" "Yeah, he just looks ugly and his voice is terrible, he isn't going to win. I'm going to vote for the woman." Cue second female roommate "But she is so ugly too!". Complete facepalm on my part at this point.
You should be so lucky Lemur, the fact you had this conversation with your kid and the way it turned out makes your child more contemplative then some college aged people I have met. Idk what you did, but you are doing something right.
EDIT 2: Also, if you have a daughter and she doesn't watch Gossip Girl, Glee or Jersey Shore you are raising the kid better then 60% of the girls I have met at college.
Good Job Lemur, my parents never mentioned politics until I graduated high school. They have always felt they were uselss
Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr:
Maybe you could have said how a lot of the Afghans were being bullied by the Taliban, and so the US went in to help the ordinary Afghans out? And that Afghans aren't just a single group of people like we usually think of when we think of countries, but they have all sorts of conflicts between themselves like with the Pashtuns and other ethnic groups etc.
Oh, gosh, all of that is valid, but I try to be careful how much I try to cram into my little lemur's head at one go. I almost always preface this sort of conversation by saying, "It's complicated, but I can explain part of it." It's gotten to be something of a joke with my lemurling. "Dad, you know how you always say 'It's complicated?' "Maybe you could have said how a lot of the Afghans were being bullied by the Taliban, and so the US went in to help the ordinary Afghans out? And that Afghans aren't just a single group of people like we usually think of when we think of countries, but they have all sorts of conflicts between themselves like with the Pashtuns and other ethnic groups etc.
I don't want him to get the impression that there are things he simply can't understand, 'cause I think that sends a bad message, but I try to limit the scope of each explanation. Like I said, at bathtime two nights ago I was just trying to give him a tangible understanding of insurgency. If I could just communicate that clearly I would feel full of win.
I only explained racism a few weeks ago, and I don't think he got it. The idea that someone would judge an entire group of people based on trivial physical appearances ... I think that went right over his head. Or under, rather. I don't know if I'm ready to try to explain tribalism just yet.
The worst one was when he asked me in the car if Christmas was Jesus' birthday. Ooooh, that stung. My inner thought process:
Do I say, see, there was a Roman festival of Sol Invictus, and then the Roman empire became Christian, but not right away ... no. Absolutely not. Do I just say "Yes"? What about my vow to never feed him bad info for any reason? Do I violate that for my own convenience? Maybe I boil it down a little, say something like, "It was a holy day for a long time and then the Christians decided to use it for Jesus to keep things simple." No, no good, then he'll be asking when Jesus' real birthday is, and I don't know, 'cause nobody knows. Grrrrr.
Finally I gave him, "That's the tradition."
"What's a 'tradition'?"
Grrrr.
Christmas is easy: It's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus. Like a federal holiday, which, for me, is one in the same.
He needs to understand that there are things he doesn't understand, things he will never truly *know*, and that it's impossible to completely know or understand anything. The important thing is the quest for knowledge.
He needs to understand that there are things he doesn't understand, things he will never truly *know*, and that it's impossible to completely know or understand anything. The important thing is the quest for knowledge.
Yeah, I feel a twinge of guilt every time I say "It's complicated," but then I try to make up for it by explaining some aspect of what he's asking. And of course if I don't know I just tell him that I don't know. Those are the easy ones. "What kind of tree is that?"
"I don't know, puppy. You should ask your grandma. She's very smart about biology and trees and that sort of thing."
Yeah, the I dunno questions are a walk. It's the ones where I do know but there are just too many angles to explain quickly that knock me back.
But it's all about the quest for knowledge? Absolutely. Damn straight.
"I don't know, puppy. You should ask your grandma. She's very smart about biology and trees and that sort of thing."
Yeah, the I dunno questions are a walk. It's the ones where I do know but there are just too many angles to explain quickly that knock me back.
Originally Posted by Vladimir:
Christmas is easy: It's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus.
At that moment, while driving, I found the answer exceptionally hard. Christmas is easy: It's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus.
Originally Posted by Vladimir:
He needs to understand that there are things he doesn't understand, things he will never truly *know*, and that it's impossible to completely know or understand anything. The important thing is the quest for knowledge.
Well, I don't know if I entirely agree; you can certainly master aspects of some knowledge. Maybe you'll never jot down every digit in Pi, for example, but you can figure out enough of it to use it in an engineering problem. And so forth.He needs to understand that there are things he doesn't understand, things he will never truly *know*, and that it's impossible to completely know or understand anything. The important thing is the quest for knowledge.
But it's all about the quest for knowledge? Absolutely. Damn straight.
If it ever stresses you out, you can reread some of those calvin and hobbes comments and live vicariously through calvin's dad..."that's because the world really was black and white back then".
I think the "wrongness" in the XKCD example is not the "it's complicated" but the "we need to move on". It's slamming the door on inquisitiveness which needs to be avoided, and it sounds like you certainly don't do that!
I think it's important to understand things are complicated. If your Lemurling gets into science, he'll discover that not everything he is told is always true. I still remember my surprise when finding out that the "plum pudding" (or quasi solar system) atomic model (neutrons & protons in centre, sperical electrons wizing around) wasn't actually right -and I was 17 then...
I think it's important to understand things are complicated. If your Lemurling gets into science, he'll discover that not everything he is told is always true. I still remember my surprise when finding out that the "plum pudding" (or quasi solar system) atomic model (neutrons & protons in centre, sperical electrons wizing around) wasn't actually right -and I was 17 then...
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO