Star Wars: Fall of the Order [Concluded]

[TinCow]

My opinion is that we have to gather our forces, which pever is doing a good job already by cross checking people.

How do you know that pever is doing a good job? As far as I can tell, the only thing he has done is make a personal judgment call on whether Ignoramus' role claim is legit or not. That seems like a pretty low evidentiary bar in a game in which all the mafioso have cover roles, and forwarding of the actual role PMs is prohibited. This is not to belittle pever's analytical skills, but rather to question why you place so much faith in them.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

fake faith, kage is on the lynch list too.

[Jarema]

Sith Lord: "Hi, I'm an evil Sith and I'm going to kill you and that guy with SITH written all over him is my master. Lynch me or you're doomed!"
Jedi: "No! We're going to lynch that guy over there!"
Sith Lord: "But he's but a simple Jedi Initiate, surely you wish to lynch ME, who is here to cut you in little pieces..."
Jedi: "Nope, we're going to lynch the Jedi Initiate because he said something and now he says something that seems different."
Sith Lord: But I'm evil and I want to be lynched


So, the general consensus is to leave Sigurd, who is dressed like a Sith, has Sith eyes and who has "Dark Lord of the Sith" written above his evil looking avatar and his apprentice Andres, who looks as evil as his master, with his Sith costume and Sith eyes, off the hook, and to lynch some poor guy based on the combination of a few vague asumptions and "analysis"?

Who am I to disagree

Unvote ; Vote : YLC

Remember, path of good is never easy.
And evil ways seem to be more logical and meaningful. That is corruptive power of Dark Force

[Kagemusha]

How do you know that pever is doing a good job? As far as I can tell, the only thing he has done is make a personal judgment call on whether Ignoramus' role claim is legit or not. That seems like a pretty low evidentiary bar in a game in which all the mafioso have cover roles, and forwarding of the actual role PMs is prohibited. This is not to belittle pever's analytical skills, but rather to question why you place so much faith in them.

How do you know what i know and why should i share anything i know with you?
So you are saying his role is useless? Maybe we should just not even try to use the force ghost, because surely there cant be anything useful coming from it. You sir are just as guilty of being overly negative about this opportunity as i am being overly positive in your view.

[Renata]

I don't dislike you at all, Kagemusha. :(

[Kagemusha]

I don't dislike you at all, Kagemusha. :(

Maybe you and i are just talking different language as any game i have played with you, you have bandwagoned me when ever there has been a bandwagon vote coming my way, no matter was i town or mafia, or where there a case against me or not.Maybe i have just misinterprated you as our ways of speech are so different? I am sorry if i have got the impression that you arent that fond of me, but thats the impression i have, which may seem to be wrong if you are saying so.

[TinCow]

How do you know what i know and why should i share anything i know with you?
So you are saying his role is useless? Maybe we should just not even try to use the force ghost, because surely there cant be anything useful coming from it. You sir are just as guilty of being overly negative about this opportunity as i am being overly positive in your view.

You're being oddly defensive. I never claimed to know anything about your role, nor did I ask for any information from you. What prompted those comments? I have also never protested giving information to pever, nor did I question pever's opinion of Ignoramus after he made it. That post is the only time I have even commented on the pever-nexus situation, and that post was intended to question why you appeared to be happy to blindly follow pever's lead without any information. Why are you exaggerating?

[Kagemusha]

You're being oddly defensive. I never claimed to know anything about your role, nor did I ask for any information from you. What prompted those comments? I have also never protested giving information to pever, nor did I question pever's opinion of Ignoramus after he made it. That post is the only time I have even commented on the pever-nexus situation, and that post was intended to question why you appeared to be happy to blindly follow pever's lead without any information. Why are you exaggerating?

The first sentence was a reply to your post where you claimed some sort of superior understanding of the situation.Im just sick of being lectured how i should play by anyone else.Maybe im just bit grumpy? Sorry if i am, but i just am.

[TinCow]

The first sentence was a reply to your post where you claimed some sort of superior understanding of the situation.Im just sick of being lectured how i should play by anyone else.Maybe im just bit grumpy? Sorry if i am, but i just am.

It was not my intention to say I had a superior understanding of the situation. My interpretation of your post was that you were placing more faith in pever's judgment call on Ignoramus than seemed warranted based on the information we have been given. That seemed unusual to me, so I questioned you about it. I apologize if you felt like I was lecturing you, that was certainly not what I was trying to do.

[Andres]

I don't dislike you at all, Kagemusha. :(

How can you not dislike a guy who smokes Marlboro LIGHT?

Anyway, Kage, you have been behaving odd in a previous round and this getting personal/upset thing is something you sometimes do when you're scum. If you're innocent, then I suggest you stop digging your own grave.

[Kagemusha]

It was not my intention to say I had a superior understanding of the situation. My interpretation of your post was that you were placing more faith in pever's judgment call on Ignoramus than seemed warranted based on the information we have been given. That seemed unusual to me, so I questioned you about it. I apologize if you felt like I was lecturing you, that was certainly not what I was trying to do.

Maybe because of the laconic wording i use always, you misinterprated what i was trying to say? I am not saying that pever being force ghost will lead us to an automatic victory, but that we can find a good thing from loosing him, by exploiting how we can the fact that we now have a confirmed pro town person+ he has a vote, which might be crucial for the end game.

[Kagemusha]

How can you not dislike a guy who smokes Marlboro LIGHT?

Anyway, Kage, you have been behaving odd in a previous round and this getting personal/upset thing is something you sometimes do when you're scum. If you're innocent, then I suggest you stop digging your own grave.

Andres like i said before, if my grave will be digged, because literally me " the guy behind this avatar is bit on the bad mood, then so be it." I am flattered how everything i say is analyzed so thourgh out by some of you, but if you look at the substance, you can see thati am just not at the mood to be sniped at by anyone.

[Andres]

Andres like i said before, if my grave will be digged, because literally me " the guy behind this avatar is bit on the bad mood, then so be it." I am flattered how everything i say is analyzed so thourgh out by some of you, but if you look at the substance, you can see thati am just not at the mood to be sniped at by anyone.

/runs

[Renata]

Maybe you and i are just talking different language as any game i have played with you, you have bandwagoned me when ever there has been a bandwagon vote coming my way, no matter was i town or mafia, or where there a case against me or not.Maybe i have just misinterprated you as our ways of speech are so different? I am sorry if i have got the impression that you arent that fond of me, but thats the impression i have, which may seem to be wrong if you are saying so.

I have no grudge against you. I don't even remember any particular pattern of finding you (wrongly) scummy. I was after you for a long time (wrongly) in GH's last vanilla game. I was on your side (also wrongly) at the beginning of Andres' vampire game, though by the end I had made up for my error by (correctly, though ineffectively) advocating your third lynching. And that's all I particularly remember, though I do have a vague sense of having had this conversation before.

I'm finding some of your comments scummy in this game -- whether those are in fact false positives remains to be seen. What twinged me about the latest post I commented on wasn't even so much the pevergreen stuff as the criticism of the current bandwagon, to the extent of appearing to know damn well we're deciding between two townies. Even potential PIS set aside (which it shouldn't be) that's just such a reflexively scummy thing to do, to be casually dismissive of townie effort without generating any effort of one's own.

[Csargo]

/runs

: /

Unvote, Vote:YLC

[pevergreen]

TC: All I'm doing is making the call that out of the two of them, Ig is more useful to have alive.

[TinCow]

TC: All I'm doing is making the call that out of the two of them, Ig is more useful to have alive.

Thank you for that clarification, I had erroneously believed that you were backing his pro-town claim. Apologies for my misinterpretation.

[Beskar]

Sigurd should be left alive.

[Chaotix]

Sigurd should be left alive.

Can we make him write DEAD SITH LORD in huge, red, bolded letters at the bottom of his sig?

I'm worried people may actually start taking his word seriously.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Are the sith friendly towards each other this game?

[Diamondeye]

Sigurd used a nice neat oval shape, while Andres used a scraggly pencil tool. Hence, Sigurd is scum, because good is scruffy and evil is neat. QED.

unvote, vote Sigurd

No, just kidding.

unvote, vote YLC

Diamondeye, you wanna come have *another* chat with me? I'm still waiting for the coffee to kick in, but maybe you can explain your take on YLC while that is happening.

I'm back now and can talk, although I guess in the States, it's getting pretty late...

YLC and Ignoramus need to die. Do not let them off the hook. Let's take a look at their defense in some detail.

First, we have YLC's old statement before the current lynch vote, about not trusting Rebel Jeb until he was dead:
So, in summary:
1) YLC appears to have Perfect Information Syndrome with regard to Ignoramus' role (belief that he is strong, and that he has Force Breath)
2) YLC contradicts himself by stating repeatedly that he does not trust power roles, but then goes far, far out of his way to defend Ignoramus
3) YLC does not find anything suspicious about Ignoramus whatsoever, and accepts (without any proof) that Ignoramus is not only powerful, but pro-town.
4) YLC waffles on his votes between sparing Ignoramus and sparing himself.

Conclusion: YLC is scum and is likely defending his scum partner.

I normally revere your analysis, TinCow, but I think you're jumping to conclusions here. YLC's vote-waffling and frustrated comments make perfect sense in the case that he's an avid believer that duels only benefit the sith - something I thought was commonly agreed - in that he knows he's town, he'd rather see Ignoramus dead. But since he knows he's bad at fighting, he'd rather die without fighting than potentially exposing a powerful jedi for the sith to target.
Also; 1) YLC didn't insinuate anything as to whether Ig has Force Breath, as far as I can see. How are you reaching that conclusion?! And, being an initiate, isn't it a good bet to say that Ignoramus will be more adapt at fighting than he will himself?
2) What. No. He doesn't defend Ignoramus any more than simply wanting to avoid a tie. He tries to lynch him whenever it's possible without a tie...
3) I don't think that's true. I think YLC suspects Ignoramus as much as some of us, but he realizes that if Ignoramus is a sith, a duel probably won't reveal it, whereas it would reveal some of his defenses if he is protown. I think that's reasonable. Somewhat detached from his care about his own life, but logically sound.
4) Explained above; The way I understand it (he's stated it a dozen times or so, guys!), YLC has realized that it's probably him or YLC. He just wants to avoid a tie between the two...

TC: All I'm doing is making the call that out of the two of them, Ig is more useful to have alive.

Duly noted
@Zack: I'm going to remove my vote from you, but you are making absolutely bagel sense in my head. You're completely obstinate in naysaying, no matter how reasonable he's being. What the ?

unvote; vote: YLC
Even if I believe him, I think this is the best way to clear YLC of suspicion. We will probably need to lynch Ignoramus as well, but seeing as he is potentially of more use than YLC from what we know, I think it's sound to remove YLC first.

[TinCow]

YLC's vote-waffling and frustrated comments make perfect sense in the case that he's an avid believer that duels only benefit the sith - something I thought was commonly agreed - in that he knows he's town, he'd rather see Ignoramus dead. But since he knows he's bad at fighting, he'd rather die without fighting than potentially exposing a powerful jedi for the sith to target.

Is it commonly agreed? I must have missed that conversation. It was my belief that duels only demonstrate whether someone is powerful or not, not whether they are Jedi or Sith. If someone seems to be very good at dueling, that's an indication that they're a power role of some kind. Since when is it good mafia tactics to ignore mafia-detection techniques just because they might expose a pro-town role? Town wins are always due to numerical superiority, with power roles assisting if they are skilled and lucky. The town can never count on pro-town roles bailing them out, they need to push onwards with all the tools at their disposal. The power roles needs to help where they can, and do their best to keep out of the way of the lynch. If a power role gets caught in a lynch or exposed by the town, that's the power role's fault, not the town's. In this situation, the town has a tool it can use to spot people who are unusually powerful. Townies should want to use that to get useful information, particularly if they think they're going to die anyway.

In any case, for a duel to happen, the victims have to be so scummy as to be tied for winning a lynch vote. That means they are serious lynch-bait. Lynch bait that wins a duel because they are powerful tends to remain lynch bait. Which means the mafia will edge towards leaving them alone. At least, that's how I see it, and I'm the guy who won a duel as an underdog townie in the 10th Anniversary game, and got lynched for it!

Also; 1) YLC didn't insinuate anything as to whether Ig has Force Breath, as far as I can see. How are you reaching that conclusion?! And, being an initiate, isn't it a good bet to say that Ignoramus will be more adapt at fighting than he will himself?

It comes from this post:

Behavior - he may claim otherwise, but He's virtually absent from mafia until this game and now clings to it. He is doing something or believes he is going to do something - so I suspect whatever rank obtains a lightsaber. I'm an initiate, with 2 avoidance abilities, and no lightsaber skill. The tally is against me anyway period, so there isn't much I can do about - for instance, I can't seem to satisfy Zack with any answer I give him, who doesn't seem to get that I am doing what I think is best for the town based upon what I believe.

Let me put in caps - IGGY IS NOT GETTING LYNCHED, AND I WILL LOSE IN A DUEL, WHICH WILL REVEAL INFORMATION TO THE MAFIA. THE BEST OPTION, DESPITE THE FACT I DO NOT LIKE IT, SO JUST OUTRIGHT DIE. LESSER OF TWO EVILS!

I've bolded the relevant part. What reason would he have for thinking Ignoramus would not get lynched? At that point, the vote between YLC and Ignoramus was essentially tied and there were no other contenders. The only reason to belive Ignoramus would not get lynched would be if he was immune to it.

2) What. No. He doesn't defend Ignoramus any more than simply wanting to avoid a tie. He tries to lynch him whenever it's possible without a tie...

Eh, perhaps I was reading a bit too much into his statements on this one. Still, I consider the following to be him defending Ignoramus:

Unvote:Ignoramus

I again, do not codone ties. I am positive I will lose, and even if I do win, I'll be killed during the night. This way the mafia will know nothing of Iggy's abilities.

"This way the mafia will know nothing of Iggy's abilities" says multiple things: (1) Ignoramus is not mafia and (2) YLC will die to keep his abilities from being revealed. Sounds like a defense to me.

I do believe Iggy has an IMPORTANT role

3) I don't think that's true. I think YLC suspects Ignoramus as much as some of us, but he realizes that if Ignoramus is a sith, a duel probably won't reveal it, whereas it would reveal some of his defenses if he is protown. I think that's reasonable. Somewhat detached from his care about his own life, but logically sound.

If Ignoramus doesn't get lynched here, he's the safest person in the game tonight. What mafia in their right mind would kill off someone who's likely to draw a lot of votes and attention? So what if they see an ability of his or two, the odds of surviving a mafia attack when unprotected are pretty slim anyway.

4) Explained above; The way I understand it (he's stated it a dozen times or so, guys!), YLC has realized that it's probably him or YLC. He just wants to avoid a tie between the two...

I've read what he said, but his actual voting doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What's the point of trying to fine tune the vote 24 hours before it ends? That's a 1 minute before phase end move, not 1 day before phase end...

[Beskar]

Are the sith friendly towards each other this game?

No.

[Nightbringer]

Okay why is it no-one understands what the YLC is saying/doing. I makes me ing frustrated to read since he's acting completely logical.
unvote; vote: Zack. I can't decide who of YLC and Ignoramus I want lynched - an initiate striking me as town, or something stronger that I am as convinced about? So I'm taking the third option and loding my vote on Zack as he's either playing stupid or he's really, really deft when it comes to YLC's reasoning. Perhaps he has a reason to let the case on YLC continue despite being outargued?
Same about HoS: Nightbringer...

I'm sorry, what does "HoS" mean?

[Jarema]

I'm sorry, what does "HoS" mean?

Hmm... Hand of Suspicion?
Like something bigger than only a finger?

[Diamondeye]

Is it commonly agreed? I must have missed that conversation. It was my belief that duels only demonstrate whether someone is powerful or not, not whether they are Jedi or Sith. If someone seems to be very good at dueling, that's an indication that they're a power role of some kind. Since when is it good mafia tactics to ignore mafia-detection techniques just because they might expose a pro-town role? Town wins are always due to numerical superiority, with power roles assisting if they are skilled and lucky. The town can never count on pro-town roles bailing them out, they need to push onwards with all the tools at their disposal. The power roles needs to help where they can, and do their best to keep out of the way of the lynch. If a power role gets caught in a lynch or exposed by the town, that's the power role's fault, not the town's. In this situation, the town has a tool it can use to spot people who are unusually powerful. Townies should want to use that to get useful information, particularly if they think they're going to die anyway.

I never said I subscribed to the same view - I thought the first duel was interesting - but I read it as if many other townies thought it would benefit the mafia (mostly, or solely).

In any case, for a duel to happen, the victims have to be so scummy as to be tied for winning a lynch vote. That means they are serious lynch-bait. Lynch bait that wins a duel because they are powerful tends to remain lynch bait. Which means the mafia will edge towards leaving them alone. At least, that's how I see it, and I'm the guy who won a duel as an underdog townie in the 10th Anniversary game, and got lynched for it!

That's a fair point, I guess...

It comes from this post:

I've bolded the relevant part. What reason would he have for thinking Ignoramus would not get lynched? At that point, the vote between YLC and Ignoramus was essentially tied and there were no other contenders. The only reason to belive Ignoramus would not get lynched would be if he was immune to it.

Eh, no, I just think this was YLC expressing a belief that the vote would end up going against him. Seems like he's right, by the way.

Eh, perhaps I was reading a bit too much into his statements on this one. Still, I consider the following to be him defending Ignoramus:

If Ignoramus doesn't get lynched here, he's the safest person in the game tonight. What mafia in their right mind would kill off someone who's likely to draw a lot of votes and attention? So what if they see an ability of his or two, the odds of surviving a mafia attack when unprotected are pretty slim anyway.

I don't know... Yeah, he's just trying his best to avoid revealing Ignoramus' potential defensive abilities. I do concede he seems a tiny bit too sure that Ignoramus is powerful, though.

I've read what he said, but his actual voting doesn't make a whole lot of sense. What's the point of trying to fine tune the vote 24 hours before it ends? That's a 1 minute before phase end move, not 1 day before phase end...

I think he mostly wanted to give us the idea of what he was up to, to be honest. He's being honest about wanting to fine-tune the vote, instead of sneaky-saving himself in the last minute without prior warning.

Hmm... Hand of Suspicion?
Like something bigger than only a finger?

Correct.

[ULC]

Thank you to DE for basically saying what I was going to say from TC. TC, if you're wondering why I would pull off such a maneuver, I was talking to ATPG our most esteemed host at the time I logged in, and in my chat with him ended up believing that I was 12/12 with Iggy and 3 hours left till deadline (I've been on vacation with sporadic internet access and although I am able to follow along, I tend to forget how much time has past between phases - Mr.Morgan does that to you). I decided it would be me over Iggy, so I gambited on a lack of activity near the deadline, at least not enough to counter my ability to sway whomever was lynched, and pull a last minute maneuver to both prevent a duel and lynch Iggy.

When ATPG informed me about 2 hours later that there was still 24 hours left...well, as you see...I'll have more to say in a bit, I need to go see my friend at college. I'll have internet access there.

[Zack]

@Zack: I'm going to remove my vote from you, but you are making absolutely bagel sense in my head. You're completely obstinate in naysaying, no matter how reasonable he's being. What the ?

I'm not making any sense? You're the one who just defended YLC's maneuvers as perfectly reasonable, and then you vote him and say he needs to go immediately.

unvote; vote: YLC
Even if I believe him, I think this is the best way to clear YLC of suspicion. We will probably need to lynch Ignoramus as well, but seeing as he is potentially of more use than YLC from what we know, I think it's sound to remove YLC first.

[Diamondeye]

I'm not making any sense? You're the one who just defended YLC's maneuvers as perfectly reasonable, and then you vote him and say he needs to go immediately.

Yes I am. Now get down to explaining yourself instead of talking over it.

[Double A]

fos: Andres

"Hey guys, Sigurd's user title is Dark Lord of the Sith! Therefore he is Sith! Lynch him!!!!

No, wait, never mind! I'm just going to post one of those blurbs in quotes that explains someones actions in a humorous manner and then unvote him."