Star Wars: Fall of the Order [Concluded]

[Kagemusha]

I thanked Double A for a different reason.

As for sith, why would the neurtal serial killer TinCow (in netherworld) infiltrate and work with the pro town networks?

Because he appears to be town and it kep him alive long enough to win the game.

Maybe then you would like to explain what those reasons were and while you are at it.Why did you not debunk the false accusations?
Were there scans so in the Netherworld that could find Tincow and did he insist to be scanned with those? I cant understand why you are not even considering that i am telling the truth. Am i so deafult mafia that i cant be pro town?

[Renata]

I've wanted to do this for a while. Note the early write-ups a bit different in style than the later ones, in which the powers used are often (always?) bolded for easy discernment. In the early ones, it's more ambiguous. I'm leaving defenses out.

Night One:
A Sith (red lightsaber) attacks Kerren Cae with Form I lightsaber, perhaps some sort of speed burst (though it might be a passive ability), and unspecified dark energy.
A Sith (red lightsaber) attacks Si-at Unesh with Form III lightsaber.
Purple-saber attacks Sith Jax Revus with Form III.
Blue-saber attacks Jacin Sky with Form III.
Then there was that weird muffin man thing "against" Carnus Daye.
Jacin Sky (and Carnus Daye) survive.

Conclusions: The stronger Sith uses at least two, maybe three attacks, and the weaker one uses one. I would not expect further attack capabilities. Purple-saber and blue-saber are not the starting Sith. Nothing is seen from the Dark One. Survivors are not ruled out from anything.

Night Two
Someone attacks Yogal Sec-barr with lightning, possibly chain lightning (the word chain is used anyway, and it's mentioned it bouncing off of other things back into the victim).
Someone attacks Jacin Sky with choking/crushing, followed by throwing shuttles around the shuttle bay.
Jacin Sky survives.

Conclusions: Both attacks look pretty high leve. Beskar is dead at this point and the Sith Lord probably doesn't have Ironside yet. Attacks by Sith Lord and unknown, perhaps the Dark One. No one ruled out from anything.

Night Three
Someone attacks Sec-sar Jor with lightning. (Someone else is present there right after, targeting Sec-sar Jor for something, or trying to.)
A Sith attacks Ker-oth Ex with two red lightsabers (Ataru form).
The red-eyes picture shows up for the first time: Someone attacks Kaz'an Neimodea with something that boils him to death and sets the furniture on fire.
A Sith attacks Azurine Kadu with Djem So form combined with some sort of (passive I think) strengthening.
Azurine Kadu survives.

Conclusions: Two Sith accounted for ... heeeere's Ironside! So Azurine Kadu is not Sith, and red-eyes is almost certainly the Dark One. Which still leaves one lightning attack unaccounted for.

Night Four:
Purple-saber attacks Ushan Nihlek (form unknown, he is prevented from striking).
Sith attacks Azurine Kadu with Djem So and dark energy.
The Dark One (named explicitly) attacks Jacin Sky with crush and Chain Lightning (also named explicitly this time, and the description is identical to earlier). A lightsaber is mentioned but never shown.
There's no sign of a second Sith.

Conclusions: Only one Sith attacked, for whatever reason. The Dark One attacked, using the same power as seen on Night Two.

Question: Jacin Sky (pevergreen) was attacked three times before he died. By blue-saber on night one. By the Sith Lord on night two (unless the Sith Lord also has chain lightning and its repeat use by the Dark One on night four was coincidental). And finally by the Dark One on night four. What was pevergreen's public status at this point?

More after lunch.

[God Emperor]

I believe Jacin Sky was at that point regarded as a pro town. I am not certain, but looking at the votes casted on him, I would say he was not under suspicion of the town

[TinCow]

Maybe then you would like to explain what those reasons were and while you are at it.Why did you not debunk the false accusations?
Were there scans so in the Netherworld that could find Tincow and did he insist to be scanned with those? I cant understand why you are not even considering that i am telling the truth. Am i so deafult mafia that i cant be pro town?

Kage, if you want to save yourself at this point you really need to provide proof that directly exonerates you. Rhetoric about what should have been done in the past, or could be done in the future, to prove your innocence is pointless because the past is past and asking for more time to be proven innocent is standard mafia behavior. Indeed, you asked for one more night last night, and no evidence appeared to exonerate you. While it's possible that's not your fault, there's no reason whatsoever to think that you will be properly cleared if we let you live again. Something could happen tonight to prevent it, just like it did last night. In fact, the Sith would actively try and do just that, even if you're not one of them. Letting you live for that reason is just a silly move for the town to make. In addition, I am personally pretty sick and tired of people avoiding lynches with Force Breath, and a large part of the reason why I am still voting for you is that I just want a final result for once. You were a very solid vote yesterday and, while you have done a far better job of defending yourself today, it makes a mockery of the lynch system if Force Breath keeps vetoing the will of the majority. The only thing that will make me change my vote at this point is if you can point to yourself appearing in a night write-up in some manner that proves you are not Sith.

[Nightbringer]

here is a link to God Emperor's argument for voting Frozen in Ice. I encourage you to read this WeW and to vote along with it. The case against kage at this point is quite flimsy and i can't understand why it is still getting so many votes. We need to lynch frozen in ice!

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053234281


edit to avoid double post
@above
There is some new evidence, that we have no evidence of any sith or the dark one being masters of the light saber. This, combined with some other factors makes me think Frozen in Ice is a much more likely sith.

[Kagemusha]

Kage, if you want to save yourself at this point you really need to provide proof that directly exonerates you. Rhetoric about what should have been done in the past, or could be done in the future, to prove your innocence is pointless because the past is past and asking for more time to be proven innocent is standard mafia behavior. Indeed, you asked for one more night last night, and no evidence appeared to exonerate you. While it's possible that's not your fault, there's no reason whatsoever to think that you will be properly cleared if we let you live again. Something could happen tonight to prevent it, just like it did last night. In fact, the Sith would actively try and do just that, even if you're not one of them. Letting you live for that reason is just a silly move for the town to make. In addition, I am personally pretty sick and tired of people avoiding lynches with Force Breath, and a large part of the reason why I am still voting for you is that I just want a final result for once. You were a very solid vote yesterday and, while you have done a far better job of defending yourself today, it makes a mockery of the lynch system if Force Breath keeps vetoing the will of the majority. The only thing that will make me change my vote at this point is if you can point to yourself appearing in a night write-up in some manner that proves you are not Sith.

You are asking for me to show up at night write up, when i havent been attacked. That is really not anything. How about we do it like this.Someone able to force meld does so with me and i will do the same to Ignoramus. Its really not that hard. All it takes is bit of cooperation and organisation?

[TinCow]

You are asking for me to show up at night write up, when i havent been attacked. That is really not anything. How about we do it like this.Someone able to force meld does so with me and i will do the same to Ignoramus. Its really not that hard. All it takes is bit of cooperation and organisation?

Does Force Meld show up in the write-up?

[Kagemusha]

Does Force Meld show up in the write-up?

Do a mock up attack and find out.

[TinCow]

Do a mock up attack and find out.

And how will you prove what you have done with your second action?

[Kagemusha]

And how will you prove what you have done with your second action?

Look at the write ups. Have the supposed Sith Lords or Dark Ones been attacking people using a single ability? If i have been investigating people. How on earth have i been doing the killing?You can lock me in force melding and investigating and you have full accountability of what i am doing. Fair enough?

[TinCow]

Look at the write ups. Have the supposed Sith Lords or Dark Ones been attacking people using a single ability? If i have been investigating people. How on earth have i been doing the killing?You can lock me in force melding and investigating and you have full accountability of what i am doing. Fair enough?

How can we lock you in with force meld and investigating? Force meld only proves what one of your abilities has been spent on, not the other, and we already know investigating cannot currently discover the Dark Lord. How can we possibly clear you with that?

If you claim to have been investigating on a night when all three scum used two power each on the same target, prove it. You've given pever multiple investigation results. Show me one of the ones you gave him that occurred on a night when the write-up shows three separate scum, each using two abilities.

[Kagemusha]

How can we lock you in with force meld and investigating? Force meld only proves what one of your abilities has been spent on, not the other, and we already know investigating cannot currently discover the Dark Lord. How can we possibly clear you with that?

If you claim to have been investigating on a night when all three scum used two power each on the same target, prove it. You've given pever multiple investigation results. Show me one of the ones you gave him that occurred on a night when the write-up shows three separate scum, each using two abilities.

Well that could take quite the while to find, but i will take a look at the information thread. Also how on earth can i know what attacker is a Sith and what a vigilante. You are asking me impossible things today.Or what did you mean with your question?

EDIT: I gave my first investigation result to pever 17.11. I am quite sure there are several times after that you can witness atleast three attackers using two abilities.

[TinCow]

Well that could take quite the while to find, but i will take a look at the information thread. Also how on earth can i know what attacker is a Sith and what a vigilante. You are asking me impossible things today.Or what did you mean with your question?

I agree it's impossible, and that's the point of this conversation. It is impossible for you to prove that you are innocent, either with previous night actions or with the stuff you are proposing we do. The fact that you keep expecting us to prove that you are innocent on future nights with very complex night actions involving multiple people is very scummy. Not only would your proposals be wide open to sabotage by scum (especially if you are scum), even if they were 100% successful, they would not conclusively prove your innocence. Even if you're who you claim to be, it's not worth the town's efforts to do that to save you. You claim Force Ghost, so you'll be around to vote for the rest of the game no matter what. Since victory depends on lynchings, not night actions, the loss of your ability to do night actions will not be the end of the world.

[Kagemusha]

I agree it's impossible, and that's the point of this conversation. It is impossible for you to prove that you are innocent, either with previous night actions or with the stuff you are proposing we do. The fact that you keep expecting us to prove that you are innocent on future nights with very complex night actions involving multiple people is very scummy. Not only would your proposals be wide open to sabotage by scum (especially if you are scum), even if they were 100% successful, they would not conclusively prove your innocence. Even if you're who you claim to be, it's not worth the town's efforts to do that to save you. You claim Force Ghost, so you'll be around to vote for the rest of the game no matter what. Since victory depends on lynchings, not night actions, the loss of your ability to do night actions will not be the end of the world.

I dont understand your logic Tincow. I am offering town resources and there is nthing scummy in it. I can offer protection to a pointed individual and only need a fail safe person to make sure my death doesnt fail the protection of the pointed individual. Meanwhile i can use my limited scan abilities to help the town. By this arrangement town is being provided with additional muscle and when ever the grandmaster can check me thoroughly i can be cleared off any suspicion. So do not tel me i would be eating up resources when the situation is the opposite. When the Grandmaster has force far sight.If he does not have it already one night action can clear me. So please elaborate how protecting people and givng information to the town is waist of resources?
I am now the 3rd eldest Jed master around. How can we win the game purely by lynch, when you are lynching or getting killed the strongest pro town people. How do you protect yourselves during the nights?If there are three mafia using two abilities and only weaker jedi around.How many nights it will take them to kill everyone,?While the town is helping them with random vigilante killings.

[TinCow]

I dont understand your logic Tincow. I am offering town resources and there is nthing scummy in it. I can offer protection to a pointed individual and only need a fail safe person to make sure my death doesnt fail the protection of the pointed individual. Meanwhile i can use my limited scan abilities to help the town. By this arrangement town is being provided with additional muscle and when ever the grandmaster can check me thoroughly i can be cleared off any suspicion. So do not tel me i would be eating up resources when the situation is the opposite. When the Grandmaster has force far sight.If he does not have it already one night action can clear me. So please elaborate how protecting people and givng information to the town is waist of resources?
I am now the 3rd eldest Jed master around. How can we win the game purely by lynch, when you are lynching or getting killed the strongest pro town people. How do you protect yourselves during the nights?If there are three mafia using two abilities and only weaker jedi around.How many nights it will take them to kill everyone,?While the town is helping them with random vigilante killings.

You clearly do not understand what I am talking about. I don't think I can explain it any more clearly than I have, so I will simply stop. Congratulations, you might be the first person to have ever exhausted my conversational ability.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Stop talking about lynching Kage. TinCow, I'm not convinced Kage is bad. The only person this fervent on getting rid of Kage is you, who is obviously a powerful jedi, but why are you so fervent about this? Are really that sure, or are you Sith trying desperately to remove another major obstacle in killing all the town?

[Kagemusha]

You clearly do not understand what I am talking about. I don't think I can explain it any more clearly than I have, so I will simply stop. Congratulations, you might be the first person to have ever exhausted my conversational ability.

Please elaborate once more to these simple questions:

1. How does powerful pro town character eat up towns resources?
2. How does not scanning me with combination of force far sight and force persuasion clear me?
3. How can the town win purely by lynching people, if everybody and their grandmother has force breath and there are only few stronger jedi masters left?

[TinCow]

Stop talking about lynching Kage. TinCow, I'm not convinced Kage is bad. The only person this fervent on getting rid of Kage is you, who is obviously a powerful jedi, but why are you so fervent about this? Are really that sure, or are you Sith trying desperately to remove another major obstacle in killing all the town?

You misunderstand the point of this latest round of conversation. I don't need to do anything to get Kage lynched, the votes are a landslide on him. I responded to him because I wanted him to know why I was personally still voting for him, and to tell him what he could specifically do to make me change my vote. I'm not trying to prove he's guilty anymore, I was just trying to be friendly and provide him with an honest explanation and some advice on what he could realistically do to get me to change my vote.

Please elaborate once more to these simple questions:

1. How does powerful pro town character eat up towns resources?
2. How does not scanning me with combination of force far sight and force persuasion clear me?
3. How can the town win purely by lynching people, if everybody and their grandmother has force breath and there are only few stronger jedi masters left?

1) It would take more individual night actions to 'clear' you than your survival would allow you to contribute. Plus, you can't actually be 'cleared' anyway.
2) This question is confusingly worded, but if you mean why wouldn't force far sight and force persuasion clear you, the answer is because no one has both of those abilities.
3) The Force Ghosts have told us (via ATPG's holocrons) that we have pretty much no chance of killing the Dark Lord and the Sith Master at night.

[Diamondeye]

Stop talking about lynching Kage. TinCow, I'm not convinced Kage is bad. The only person this fervent on getting rid of Kage is you, who is obviously a powerful jedi, but why are you so fervent about this? Are really that sure, or are you Sith trying desperately to remove another major obstacle in killing all the town?

TC's right; We need to lynch Kage. He's not the only person this fervent, in fact, he tried talking reason to Kage, but to no avail.

[a completely inoffensive name]

TC's right; We need to lynch Kage. He's not the only person this fervent, in fact, he tried talking reason to Kage, but to no avail.

Alright then, just didn't want my prediction that Kage was to be lynched agin to come true because I have a feeling it might bite us in the fanny. Who knows, maybe he is Sith. Whatever. Sticking with my vote though.

[wideyedwanderer]

Well it seems like no one wants to test out Kagemusha's Force Meld power, and that it isn't a sign of his innocence.

What I am going to do however, is vote: Nightbringer His last post struck me as off. I find it strange he would much rather see me off'ed over Kagemusha, but at this point is keeping his vote on khazzar, which is only going to help Kagemusha get lynched. How come you won't vote for me unless there is a bandwagon Nightbringer? Is that part of your attempt to blend in perhaps?

Also another thing:

So we know that a Sith's defensive saber can be any color, but do we know if their offensive saber has to be red? If that were the case we could clear a lot of the vigilantes from being Sith.

All of Nightbringer's posts have struck me as off, which makes me think that that's just how he acts. Nightbringer has unabashedly been himself, and I think a Sith would try a little harder to blend in, which is why I grew suspicious of you last day phase. Scum typically try to a lay low while contributing enough to discussion to make it look like they aren't trying to lay low. Scum will also vote in most, if not all, day phases, as you have. Kagemusha sounds like a good lynch, and it appears he is in the undisputed lead, so I'll cast my vote elsewhere. Vote: Frozen in Ice.

[Kagemusha]

Tincow i think you are right this is fruitlesss conversation.You dont simply want to hear what i am saying.Let me try to explain myself to you one last time.

concerning 1) It will take one night for the grandmaster to clear me when he gets the ability he needs, namely force far sight. So your statement is false. By pointing to other possible night actions waisted.Do you mean the ones i would be providing to protect the grandmaster? How is protecting him waist of time? I cant comprehend.
concerning 2) Have it occurred to you that this might happen any night now that the grandmaster gains the ability. What is your demanding hurry to get rid of me, while i propose a positive effort which will help the town? I cant comprehend.
3) I was not talking about killing the mafia during night, but protecting the key perrsons of the town.Namely the grandmaster as he is the only one that can get hold of the scan that can reveal the mafia for the town to lynch.

That is all. You really dont have to reply as ive spent hours now reasoning with you but it would seem you dont want to hear what i am saying, only want to find damning evidence which you dont find.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Kagemusha: (9) Tincow, pevergreen, Ignoramus, Beefy, Cecil XIX, Chaotix, Diamondeye, Yaseikhaan, Double A

Frozen: (4) Seon, Nightbringer, ACIN, WEW

Warman: (2) Khazaar, Csargo

Chaotix: (1) Kage
Nightbringer: (1) Frozen
Abstain: (1) Warman

[Renata]

I just had it pointed out to me that I may have the two Sith the wrong way around in the first night's writeup. Beskar defends with Form I, which is the form that the *first* attacker uses, not the second. Unless the Sith work differently than the Jedi do, my understanding is that the defense form and the attack form should be the same. So some of my assumptions about relative strength may be wrong going forward; I'll need to look at things again before posting any more.

[Nightbringer]

kage, please switch your vote to frozen in ice. we can look into chaotix tomorrow but you dont have to die. we have a real scum here that we can take care of.

totally random edit to prevent post spam.
can someone please explain WIFOM to me

[Double A]

We don't even know this is possible.

How did you figure this out? Did YOU get extra lightsaber crystals when you killed Jedi?

fos:double A

I didn't say I knew it was possible, it's just a possibility. I was thinking of what the Sith could do to throw people off. The most likely answer was they could change sabers.

I thanked Double A for a different reason.

As for sith, why would the neurtal serial killer TinCow (in netherworld) infiltrate and work with the pro town networks?

Because he appears to be town and it kep him alive long enough to win the game.

GH was a serial killer in ABZF, and he was the townie leader

----

Kage, what is the exact name of your level IV investigative ability?

[Askthepizzaguy]

kage, please switch your vote to frozen in ice. we can look into chaotix tomorrow but you dont have to die. we have a real scum here that we can take care of.

totally random edit to prevent post spam.
can someone please explain WIFOM to me

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?...In_Front_Of_Me

Used when someone says "I wouldn't do that" because it doesn't make logical sense to do so, when in fact the reason for doing so could be to then say "I wouldn't do that", thus tricking people into thinking you wouldn't do that, making them choose incorrectly.

Also applies when someone says "I would do that" because by that same logic, you could have chosen differently to throw us off. Etc.

[Renata]

kage, please switch your vote to frozen in ice. we can look into chaotix tomorrow but you dont have to die. we have a real scum here that we can take care of.

totally random edit to prevent post spam.
can someone please explain WIFOM to me

I'm not going to be around much before deadline, so I guess I'll say this in public too. Frozen is either a damn sneaky bastard of a schemer, or he is not mafia. He's the person who pointed out my mistake to me, the point being that he had to ask how saber attacks work. Anyone with that power would know, or be able to find out by reading their own role PM. I'm going to wager that he is not mafia and see where that goes.

vote: Kagemusha

I'm not entirely convinced, but we'll see. I don't find the defenses persuasive, though. pever hasn't responded directly about the investigation requests, but I have to believe that if he had reason to find that definitive, he would say so. And the saber thing I don't get at all.

[Beefy187]

@Renata We didn't have the scanning ability needed to search the dark one.

[Csargo]

Alright then, just didn't want my prediction that Kage was to be lynched agin to come true because I have a feeling it might bite us in the fanny. Who knows, maybe he is Sith. Whatever. Sticking with my vote though.

I agree with pretty much everything in this post and feel the same way.