Star Wars: Fall of the Order [Concluded]

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-28-2010, 16:00

Wall of the Commentary

Episode VI: Recounting of the Jedi

Night 16

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Night 17

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Night 18

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Night 19

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Night 20

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Final Night

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Diamondeye** · 12-28-2010, 16:40

Diamondeye - Form II Force Valor,Meditation Attack Psychonaut
Psychonaut: Saber: Twin Saber II: Ataru II - The Aggression Form
Defences: Force Valour + Force Trance
Art of Movement, Meditation, Mind
Diamondeye- Knight (3) Valor (1) Meditation (1) Makashi (1) = 6
Adds +1 Level when facing Ataru (Form IV)
Psychonaut- Master (4) Valor (1) Meditation (1) Ataru II (1) = 7
Adds +1 Level when facing Makashi (Form II)
Psychonaut survives!

Okay I was this close to ridding us of the Sith Master? All the more awesome!

**autolycus** · 12-28-2010, 17:39

2 questions

1.With Force Meld, it was a check against the protector, and he succeeded or died, then if he died, it was a check against the protected, right?
2. Did vig killers get the same info as the Sith with respect to their attempted kills?

**Diamondeye** · 12-28-2010, 18:55

Originally Posted by autolycus

2 questions

1.With Force Meld, it was a check against the protector, and he succeeded or died, then if he died, it was a check against the protected, right?
2. Did vig killers get the same info as the Sith with respect to their attempted kills?

2: Descriptions were like this (when using blade, at least):

Your attack on your target failed! You were too evenly matched.

Your attack on Psychonaut was unsuccessful. He seems to be quite skilled with the saber, and you were unable to gain a significant advantage over the saber form he used. He defeated you in combat and you fled the scene.

Your attack on Double A failed. He appeared to be using a saber form that was perfect against multiple attackers, and was using an active defense that boosted his combat.

**naut** · 12-28-2010, 19:57

Congrats Chaotix. I'm glad you were the winner after we lost, as opposed to the town. If Seon hadn't blocked me whatever night he did the game may well have ended differently.

**Double A** · 12-28-2010, 20:19

Seriously, though, Chaotix, you did a great job of manipulating people, and Pizza, you deserve a commendation and a special food of some kind as an award for hosting a great game.

**Andres** · 12-28-2010, 20:44

Congratulations Chaotix

A well deserved victory

And thank you and congratulations for this game, ATPG. A fantastic experience

How many keyboards did you kill typing all that stuff? How fast do you type? It would take me ages just typing all that and inserting those images and videos. I can't even start to imagine how much work has been put into this game.

Wonderful

**Ironside** · 12-28-2010, 22:35

Congratulations Chaotix. I'm still a bit annoyed that you got the victory unchallenged in the endgame, but you were certainly the most worthy non-sith player to win.

And well hosted ATPG.

Edit: Need to check ATPG. How would it be possible to breach Chaotix's defenses at night 20? Morichro takes down Force Sever or?

And our attack window was fairly small. We should've gone for you on night 17 though. Would've killed you.

**Diamondeye** · 12-28-2010, 23:15

Just wanted to say I spent some time reading thru both Sith QTs. I was very impressed with our scumbuddies this game. You all did a very impressive job and deserve more than the minor-thingimabob that both Sith and Jedi ended up with.

**autolycus** · 12-28-2010, 23:41

Final Judgement as an attack had the same strengths and weakness as Force Storm, right? So as a lower ranked player, the two abilities that Nightbringer could, had he had them, used to survive were Force Sever and Morichro, correct?

**Ironside** · 12-29-2010, 00:31

Originally Posted by autolycus

Final Judgement as an attack had the same strengths and weakness as Force Storm, right? So as a lower ranked player, the two abilities that Nightbringer could, had he had them, used to survive were Force Sever and Morichro, correct?

Nah, +2 in passive boosts would make Force Protection being enough. Or some combo.

Second night, with Chaotix going with Force Plague, would require Force Sight and Force Suppression/Final Judgement.

Morichro is useless if used on the one attacking you. I'm not sure why ATPG is suggested that we needed Morichro to beat Chaotix, but he did, so that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Shame that WeW didn't have it. I think we could've had both Sith and Chaotix left for the final night then.
Fairest ending I think.

Giving up both Sith to Chaotix was too risky.

Edit:
You made the Grandmaster way too overpowered ATPG. Each new one would know more of the defenses, making it possible for perfect defense syndrome at the end. It would take alot of turns for the Sith to figure out that, and with that extreme 10 skills/turn that both Igno and Chaotix had, it's silly. Endgame basically needed a Sith as grandmaster or a strong sith master killing the Grandmaster every turn, to prevent perfect defense syndrome.

**Chaotix** · 12-29-2010, 02:01

Originally Posted by Psychonaut

Congrats Chaotix. I'm glad you were the winner after we lost, as opposed to the town. If Seon hadn't blocked me whatever night he did the game may well have ended differently.

Thanks very much Psycho. You had me fooled until I came up with the lightsaber plan.

As for the attack on me where you were blocked by Seon- I saw that in the quicktopic. IIRC, my defenses that night were Force Trance and Force Sight, so I would have survived your Destruction. I used Force Sight as a defense every night that I had it because I saw just how powerful Destruction was by what you did to Ignoramus.

And thanks to everyone else for the congrats. If it makes you feel better, I honestly expecting to win town victory when Diana died.

EDIT: Igno didn't have 10 skills per turn. The Supreme Grandmaster level was, as far as I know, restricted to me and any Sith Lord who became Grandmaster, because we would have both Light Side and Dark Side Mastery at the same time. Or maybe it was just me. Can't remember. In any case, the Sith Lords matched the power of normal Grandmasters, and Psychonaut still had a big lead on my at the time of my promotion.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-29-2010, 06:26

Originally Posted by Andres

Congratulations Chaotix

A well deserved victory

And thank you and congratulations for this game, ATPG. A fantastic experience

How many keyboards did you kill typing all that stuff? How fast do you type? It would take me ages just typing all that and inserting those images and videos. I can't even start to imagine how much work has been put into this game.

Wonderful

This is approximately how fast I type. I began at the one minute mark and I will continue until the minute has ended. So how are things going Andres? How's the new baby, and the lady, I hope they are well. As for myself you know still a bachelor so whatta ya gonna do eh? But I digress. It's good to see you back on these forums and three two one stop.

72 words per minute.

Honestly this laptop needs a new "8" key and the thing is covered in dust and pizza crumbs. :p

Inserting images and videos takes about 5 minutes per writeup. I have all my videos bookmarked already, and I have all my images uploaded to photobucket and organized according to type of image (ship, saber, force power, jedi, sith, etc).

Also, those were my notes; I copy/pasted most of the endgame stuff. What I didn't copy/paste were a few of my stand-alone commentaries. The day-by-day commentaries I began working on during day 10, and have been adding 1 entry per day as the game went along. I felt like I was right there with you guys. The night results I copy/pasted and bolded the important parts for easier viewing. I have all of the images for the role PMs (force powers and descriptions) copy and pasted into a gigantic list in a wordpad file, I hit CONTROL+F and I find the force power in question by typing in a relevant string of characters.

For example: Telekinetic Lightsaber Combat (as opposed to telekinesis) I would type "kinetic" and I would skip straight down to the power in question.

Then I copy the image plus tag plus description 2-line couplet, and paste into people's updated role PMs. Even getting the system down to a couple minutes per role PM, when the initiates became padawans and I needed to update 50+ role PMs for the first time, yikes and more yikes.

Only thing worse was Resident Evil: Dark Falls. That game was still more actual behind the scenes work than this game; however I wrote significantly more for this game than that one.

Much of the work is done ahead of time. But when I updated role PMs, what I did was I got a system where I opened in a new tab EVERYONE's role PM at the same time. Then, I did the robot work; I go to every person's role Pm and I do each step one by one.

1. eliminate quote tags in all role Pms
2. Add player to whom I am sending, in addition to my own name (I send each update to myself so I can reply to it with quote and add the name of the person who gets it, next round. Saves me a lot of time.)
3. If mass promotions, copy/paste the standard promotion message plus the additional info overwriting the previous info
4. Copy/paste what they learned last night, and then add results for what they did.
5. hit preview.
6. Proofread and add miscellaneous (if number of abilities per night changed, modify. If saber changed due to double or twin saber, modify. Etc)
7. Hit send and move on to next one, proofread and send.

When I have 30-50 PMs to do, the ONLY way to do it without going nuts is to take the "hunt and locate" out of the process. It's insane to scroll up and down and back and forth for each PM. I find that if I do the process as described above, for each step in the process for each role PM, I am already viewing the part of the Role PM I need to modify, or I remember exactly how much I need to scroll in order to be where I need to be. A process of hunting which can take 10 seconds per role PM is reduced to less than 1 second.

Efficiency is how I stay sane doing this stuff.

I admit I am a fast typer, but the real challenge in hosting a game like this is the enormous amount of repetitive actions I must perform. The control+f function is a godsend, firefox's multiple tabs are a life saver, and having the necessary preparation done for the game took a lot of the pain out of this (like I should have done more for Resident Evil Dark Falls).

What you see which is fun to read can only exist through hours upon hours of machine-like movements so boring that it would make Vulcans yawn. Meh; I know the end product will be worth it. That's why I do it.

Originally Posted by Ironside

Edit: Need to check ATPG. How would it be possible to breach Chaotix's defenses at night 20? Morichro takes down Force Sever or?

Chaotix - Lightsaber: 1- Form IV/Ataru 2, 2- Form V/Djem So
Defenses: 1- Force Sever, 2- Force Sight
Actions: 1- Final Judgement on Csargo, 2- Force Destruction on Renata

1. Counter Final Judgment (as a defense) with Morichro. Destruction still hits Renata.

Renata- Morichro on Chaotix

2. Attack Chaotix twice with WEW, use a move that can defeat Force Sight as the second attack. (choke/wound/kill)

WEW- Scream, Choke versus Chaotix

3. Continue with an attack on Nightbringer (only other Jedi who cannot be corrupted besides Chaotix)

Nightbringer - I am going to use Twin Saber to attack Renata twice. The first attack will use Makashi and the second will use Twin Saber Niman.
I will use Force Whirlwind and Force Valor for active defenses.

Renata- Deadly Sight on Nightbringer.

Chaotix Final Judgment nerfed by Morichro.
WEW hits Chaotix with scream (wins versus Sever) and Choke (wins versus sight)
[note: second attack doesn't even have to work, it simply needs to exist so that his defenses are split instead of both used against first attack]
WEW defeats Chaotix with Scream
Chaotix defeats Renata with Destruction
Renata defeats Nightbringer with Deadly Sight.

All remaining Jedi are vulnerable to corruption. Sith victory.

Originally Posted by Ironside

Edit:
You made the Grandmaster way too overpowered ATPG. Each new one would know more of the defenses, making it possible for perfect defense syndrome at the end. It would take alot of turns for the Sith to figure out that, and with that extreme 10 skills/turn that both Igno and Chaotix had, it's silly. Endgame basically needed a Sith as grandmaster or a strong sith master killing the Grandmaster every turn, to prevent perfect defense syndrome.

1. Ignoramus never got 10 skills per turn. No one but Chaotix achieved that; though it was possible for anyone to do so given the right circumstances.

2. Your analysis is flawed. There is no such thing as perfect defense.

Example:

Chaotix uses Force Sever and Force Sight as defense.
Psychonaut uses Force Kill and Force Destruction on Chaotix.

Chaotix defends Force Kill with Force Sever!
Chaotix survives!
Chaotix defends Force Destruction with Force Sight!
Chaotix survives!

Chaotix uses Force Sever and Force Sight as defense.
Psychonaut uses Force Destruction and Force Kill on Chaotix.

Chaotix uses Force Sever, it fails versus Force Destruction
Chaotix is slain in battle!

Anything anyone uses can be countered. Sith had up to 4 powerful attacks, 6 if you count Kagemusha. There is no real excuse for any grandmaster to survive longer than one night. As you saw with Tincow and Blackadder and Diana Abnoba defending Ignoramus, even multiple defenders cannot hold back the offensive power of the Sith, when used properly.

The Sith did not go all-out with their offense when it counted. That's all. Also, Chaotix (and other nuisances) could have been killed earlier on in the game when they were less powerful. Starting Masters and Knights needed to be eliminated to give the Sith a true advantage.

**Ironside** · 12-29-2010, 11:19

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

1. Ignoramus never got 10 skills per turn. No one but Chaotix achieved that; though it was possible for anyone to do so given the right circumstances.

Igno got it the same day he died, if your list is correct. It's just that you created the most powerful role ever (Dark One), and countered it with what probably was an even more powerful role (GM).

Edit: My mistake, the double listing of powers gain on both n15 and n16 confused me.

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

2. Your analysis is flawed. There is no such thing as perfect defense.

I see your point and stand corrected.

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

The Sith did not go all-out with their offense when it counted. That's all. Also, Chaotix (and other nuisances) could have been killed earlier on in the game when they were less powerful. Starting Masters and Knights needed to be eliminated to give the Sith a true advantage.

That's true, I'm just not fond of sudden power surges. Chaotix went 2-> 10 powers/turn very rapidly. At 2 powers and the previous track record, he was a minor threat. Then he suddenly got very powerful very quick.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-29-2010, 15:18

Originally Posted by Ironside

That's true, I'm just not fond of sudden power surges. Chaotix went 2-> 10 powers/turn very rapidly. At 2 powers and the previous track record, he was a minor threat. Then he suddenly got very powerful very quick.

Well, I'd like to sympathize with you on the point that 10 powers was a lot. However:

1. It was known that Chaotix was a starting Knight. That means he outranked every single Sith after Kage died. He had been building powers the entire game, unlike most people. There was no way for you to know how many defensive powers he had acquired, but you'd have to assume it was a lot.

2. It was known that Chaotix was the purple saber killer/Dark Jedi. For a long time, this was known. It was also known that he was the one who killed Beskar twice, and was one of the leaders of the charge against Kagemusha. Regardless of his power level, he was a massive threat to the Sith, because he kept killing you guys. It was also known that he was organizing and coordinating attacks, especially once he became grandmaster. If he had been successful in picking you guys off solo, you'd have to imagine his success would only increase once more people followed his lead.

3. It was known that Chaotix was the one using POWERFUL dark side attacks. You saw him use Force Blast. You saw him use Force Storm. These are tier III force killing powers. The Sith of all people would have realized that he was more powerful than a Sith Apprentice with the Dark Side, in addition to being a starting Knight and now a Grandmaster.

4. He was a grandmaster for a while, too. That's a lot of time to be getting 5 abilities, especially when you know he's getting dark side powers as well. You knew how much more powerful dark side powers were; slow, suppression, cloak, these are all very powerful defenses. Any dark side attacking power is more powerful than the Jedi's ability to vigilante kill, except that Final Judgment is more powerful than dark side Force Storm due to its defensive properties.

5. AND you knew he had Final Judgment too.

It's ok to be caught off-guard with how rapidly he gained powers at the end; but even so, you guys had enough information to know he was the largest threat to your lives at this point in the game. For about 5 rounds, you knew he was the single greatest threat, but there was no coordinated effort to knock him out. There was a half-hearted attempt to knock him out, but it was never an all-out assault.

The Jedi are the same way; they knew how powerful he was getting. He had even been sharing the details of his rise to power, the Jedi Holocron, with pevergreen and the other Force Ghosts. But they correctly interpreted the situation as being more dangerous with Psychonaut and Renata alive. Once those two Sith Lords died, Chaotix was the largest threat to the town because WEW hadn't been Sith long enough to earn a promotion or very many powers. One or two fewer bad lynches or vigilante kills plus having previously lynched Chaotix would have given town the necessary number of Jedi to lynch WEW, and then convince Chaotix to accept a lesser victory instead of risking death.

The remaining Jedi and Sith had been starting Initiates/Padawans. They knew they didn't have enough defenses to withstand a starting Knight with dark side powers and a Grandmaster rank, or at least that it was unlikely.

At the last, there was very little that could take one by surprise in this game, especially by the end, because most people got the same kinds of powers and defenses, at predictable times, and everyone had a chance to become a Sith, so everyone's role was more or less the same. Everyone was capable of being equally powerful, but we knew that those who started off on a higher rank would maintain that advantage. But even if there was very little that could take you by surprise, this is one of those instances where you must expect the unexpected, and prepare for the worst. In mafia games, sometimes you run into a role who has resistance to night kills. Sometimes you run into detectives, and doctors, and roleblockers. Sometimes you get nasty surprises like finding out your mason partner is mafia.

Being taken by surprise is an expected occurrence, especially in Askthepizzaguy games. There are very few games of mine where I failed to throw in a twist that messed with people's understanding and perceptions of what a mafia game should be.

By now, no one should be surprised that they got surprised.

I sympathize with you to the extent that the Jedi team was extremely powerful, and certain Jedi ended up being more powerful than the Sith. But at the same time, I can demonstrate that the Sith team was not without counterplay, and they were not taken by complete surprise. You had ample heads up that Chaotix was a problem, IMO. Not that you're not entitled to your opinion on the matter; you can freely disagree with me here. I value the opinion of my players on fairness and balance.

Example: I empathize with Tincow's position on how lame Force Breath was, even if I have my own views about it. I might nerf its power or do something about it in the next game.

Since the Sith got destroyed, perhaps I make the game a little harder on the town team next time, and see if the game can be won with a balance shift in the opposite direction, while still being in the "fair" range.

______________

I'd like to go over the various strategies that can be employed in this game. I will detail the important ones, and see if maybe next game similar tactics might be used.

**pevergreen** · 12-29-2010, 15:21

I agree.

As soon as Chaotix revealed, I knew we'd have to get rid of him eventually, but he was one of the few people that would actually work, and was, for a decent amount of the game, one of the strongest anti-sith forces.

As I said to him, I simply didn't have enough time to get rid of him and still get a jedi victory.

**TinCow** · 12-29-2010, 15:35

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

Example: I empathize with Tincow's position on how lame Force Breath was, even if I have my own views about it. I might nerf its power or do something about it in the next game.

To be clear, I think it's a worthy ability to have, but it should be a very very rare ability, not a common one. It also should not be guaranteed to the most powerful mafioso, which it appears to be. While Force Breath may save more townies than mafioso, that's not necessarily a good thing for the game. If the town screws up and lynches the wrong person, it should suffer for that. At the same time, if the town is sufficiently on the ball to lynch a mafioso, they should be rewarded for it. An anti-lynch ability is interesting as an unexpected ability that throws everyone for a momentary loop, but it can only surprise people if it really is rare. In these games, Force Breath is now expected of all high ranking players and that can be very fatiguing for the town's votes. There have been multiple occassions in both this game and the previous one where someone actively did not vote for their preferred candidate simply because they believed the person would not die that round due to Force Breath. While sometimes the town persevered and did the lynch anyway, it seems wrong for people to be disuaded from voting for another person simple due to a defensive ability that person has, instead of their behavior. Again, if it's a really rare thing, that's fine... but when it occurs multiple times per game it just gets annoying.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-29-2010, 15:52

The only people guaranteed to have it were the starting Sith, and maybe one or two townies iirc. And Beskar died without even being lynched!

Force Breath was a power you could learn as a Padawan and start with as an initiate. That's the problem. There were too many people who could learn it, and too few other powers to learn at those ranks.

Padawans could learn 20 different powers, and obviously wouldn't learn powers they already knew. And Knights and Masters could still learn it. I need to put Force Breath in the Knight or Master category, that will create the effect you're looking for. And perhaps, no one but Kagemusha and Chaotix should have started with Force Breath. (Being a serial killer, you need something to assist in your survival)

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-29-2010, 16:50

My thoughts on the various powers and abilities:

Force Breath- Allows survival of 1 lynch

How this can be employed to the town's benefit:

You can use this to "No Lynch" intentionally, while removing the power from people you feel will survive until the endgame, who might become Sith and therefore a threat that needs to be lynched twice. Not lynching a Jedi prolongs the game, which is to the Jedi's distinct advantage because all those starting Initiates need time to beef up. The longer the game continues, the more Jedi still alive, the harder the game is for the Sith.

The power Force Breath also had little benefit for the Sith here, because once actual, decent cases were put on Kagemusha and Psychonaut, they were promptly lynched twice. Other Sith were destroyed at night (which is what I wanted you guys to do; develop some dark side powers and beat the Sith at their own game, by living dangerously, and questioning the dogmatic, narrow view of the Jedi Order) or lynched without force breath. If a suspect survives a lynch, use Force Morichro against them, and do not say who is using that power against them. Then, either the kills will drop because the suspect was guilty, or the kills will drop because the suspect was innocent but the mafia want to make it seem like he is guilty (thus prolonging the game, advantage: Jedi). If the kills do not drop, the suspect was likely innocent. You don't have to lynch them again now, and their Force Breath is removed for the endgame, making them a less likely Sith recruit.

These are the reasons I included Force Breath. It was enormously powerful to the Jedi, if annoying. You didn't like the way it helped you, but it extended the game by how many rounds? Like 5 or so, if I am not mistaken. Those are more rounds, more chances, to locate a Sith or get the powers you need to investigate them properly. If it were less common, the game would be shorter, and that's okay with me. I just like building the tension and allowing for growth of the characters.

Force Meld- Can be used to join another in battle.

How this can be employed to the town's benefit:

This is a risky move. The risks are detailed and known, which is that you can save someone's life with your own defenses, but if those defenses fail, you die, and it's possible your target dies as well. When it should be used, is after you've learned tier III defenses, two of them, and have enough passive boosts to withstand attacks by the Sith. By using Force Meld, you are saying to the Sith, I WANT YOU TO TRY TO KILL ME.

If you are actually ready for the Sith to kill you off, or you think that the Sith will waste time trying to penetrate your defenses, or you have an exceptionally important target to defend, like a Grandmaster with Force Far Sight, then okay, use this power. Otherwise, there is a massive risk of unnecessary death.

Secondly, it can be used to account for whereabouts and gain light side points. Example:

Captain Blackadder is a Jedi Master with powerful saber abilities and decent defenses. He's also a suspect, and has Force Meld.
Seon is a Jedi Knight with lesser saber powers and less defenses, he's also a suspect, and has a vigilante power.
Csargo is a suspect.
Seon attacks Csargo with sabers, intentionally using the worst saber form against Blackadder's defenses.
Captain Blackadder defends Csargo with Meld and Force Whirlwind to be safe.
Others with saber also attack Csargo, the vig attack fails due to Whirlwind.
Captain Blackadder gains +2 light side points for each successful defense, quickly making him unrecruitable. If he is scanned and not found to be light side, he's likely going to be a Sith, who cannot gain light side points from Meld.

This coordination is carried out secretly by Force Ghosts. The Sith are not aware of it, and Csargo is unlikely to be murdered by Sith because he's a suspect and not accusing them.

The writeup demonstrates that several Jedi's whereabouts are accounted for, and cannot have been murdering. They may still be Sith, but their attack power has been nerfed. Suppose the Sith become aware of this, by participating in the attack. They realize that using a very powerful Force attack on Csargo might also kill Blackadder. Now you can assume there may be Sith among those in the coordinated attack, Capo style.

Finally, if a Jedi is on the Light Side and has Force Ghost, or hasn't become a Dark jedi yet, use Meld so that you can gain further light side points and possibly die as a Jedi Force Ghost, denying that power to the Sith.

There was no concerted effort to keep the Force Ghosts on the Jedi team, but it happened by accident, giving the Jedi an advantage in the endgame over the Sith. It was possible for Sith to keep recruiting Force Ghost-knowledgeable people, and end the game with a numbers advantage over the Jedi.

Alter Damage- allows lightsaber combat victory to not be fatal

How this can be employed to the town's benefit:

An otherwise useless vigilante who isn't high-ranking becomes an expendable pseudo-investigator. Attack all Light Side Jedi with saber, and use Alter Damage. If the Light Side Jedi loses the battle, and then kills the vigilante when the vigilante shows him mercy, it wasn't really a Light Side Jedi, but a Sith in disguise. In all other cases, the attack either fails because you didn't win, or it fails because the target was light side and will not counterattack after being defeated.

This also gains light side points for the Jedi, and looks for people using Force Cloak. Very powerful ability, was not used properly in this game.

It wasn't obvious, but then again I didn't want to make it obvious. I wanted you to think tactically and figure out how it was possible for the move to be useful. I don't think anyone figured it out, even after the Holocron told the Grandmasters how it could be used effectively. It was completely ignored.

Force Vision- Allows one to see through stealth (investigation) and if the target is using an active ability or not.

In the early game, very few people had any active abilities. If someone was found using one, they are either Sith or powerful Jedi.

It can also be used to account for whereabouts. If someone is told to do nothing that night, and someone scans them with Force Vision, and the Sith can be accounted for in the writeup, then that person is likely not Sith. This is useful in the late game. If the result comes back "unclear" then it means that you've been roleblocked or the target is using Cloak.

This can also be used to determine how powerful one's stealth is. If someone avoids an attack with stealth, use Force Vision plus saber against that target the next night. If the attack fails again due to stealth, it's because of Cloak or better, not stealth. Most likely, the person using Cloak is a Dark Jedi or a Sith.

Doesn't matter if the scan results can be fooled by Force Trance. The vigilante attack will fail, revealing that they are using Trance or Cloak. That's your Sith, in all likelihood.

You don't have to kill the Sith in combat to defeat them, just catch them using dark side powers.

Force Improved Vision- Allows one to see through stealth or cloak (investigation)

This also tells you how strong someone is with the Light Side. Only use very strong with the light side Jedi when doing vigilante attacks, unless you're okay with that person becoming a Dark Jedi. That way, you can have your vigilante attacks and not risk falling to the Dark Side.

Should their condition change from strong with the Light Side to anything else, without powers or events capable of changing their alignment, they've been recruited by the Sith, obviously.

Combine with saber attack and you can kill through cloak. If it still fails to penetrate cloak, then it is Force Trance, and you've found a Sith Lord or better!

Force Far Sight- Allows one to see through stealth, cloak, or Force Trance. (investigation)

Besides the obvious, if you think you've found a Sith, use Force Far Sight plus dark side force killing powers to penetrate Force Trance and attack them at night, to avoid their Force Breath ability.

Force Improved Vision- Allows one to see through stealth or cloak (investigation)

Use this to monitor people for susceptibility changes. If a dark side jedi goes from recruitable to non-recruitable, and they are still dark side, that's a Sith.

"Not susceptible to the Dark Side, and you don't sense the Dark Side already present in this one." [LIGHT SIDE]
"Not susceptible to the Dark Side, but you're not sure if the Dark Side is present or not." [NEUTRAL]
"Susceptible to the Dark Side, and you sense that the Dark Side is already present in this one." [DARK SIDE]
"Not Susceptible to the Dark Side, and you sense that the Dark Side is already present in this one." [CHAOTIC, SITH]

If a player is reading as Light Side, they might also be using Force Trance to look innocent. Through the Holocron, the Jedi became aware that it was possible to fool scan results besides Force Far Sight. That means the Sith would obviously with to look non susceptible to the Dark Side or a threat.

Next game it will be more of a WIFOM game, but in this one, reading as Light Side and being a powerful Jedi meant that this player was likely a Sith Lord or Dark Lord of the Sith, or a powerful Jedi.

Use the prescribed actions above, using other investigatory powers, or use Alter Damage, and determine if this player is ACTUALLY strong with the light side of the force. Or, take a chance and lynch the guy...

Force Ghost- Allows vote even in death

Do everything you can to push this player to the Light Side of the Force, and use Meld constantly. The more Jedi Force Ghosts you have, the better.

Wall of light- Can be used to defend against almost any attack

Use this against powerful Dark Jedi. You can negate the deleterious effects of using dark side powers by constantly protecting them and also raising their connection to the Light Side of the Force.

You can have someone learn Dark Side powers, and then raise their connection to the Light Side of the Force, making them a light side Jedi with Dark Side knowledge, rendering them unrecruitable except by Mind Control. Have them attack for you, and dispose of them before the game is over, because it is possible they got Mind Controlled by the Sith. Remove Force Breath from this player.

Use this to protect your light side vigilantes and/or investigators.

Final Judgment- Allows Jedi to steal Sith offensive powers during battle.

Use this to increase your Grandmaster's connection to the Dark Side after they attain Light Side Enlightenment. Use this to actually finish off Jedi, instead of lynching them. Use Force Breath to avoid lynching Jedi altogether unless they are actually a suspect, or use the lynch to remove all instances of Force Breath in the game.

The Grandmaster will agree to kill only those the Jedi Council wants dead by a vote.

The Grandmaster may end up stealing Dark Side powers this way, as well.

Force Englightenment- Defends against all dark side corruption or mind attacks. Can defend one other against the threat of the Dark Side.

Use to raise connection of Jedi to the Light Side, and to prevent that player from being recruited by the Sith after a Sith is killed. This reduces the number of suspects you have for the new apprentice.

Good when combined with Wall of Light, and others protecting said player with Revitalize or Meld.

Force Cloak- allows one to hide from most scans and attacks

Create Dark Side vigilantes for the town; attack player with Force Cloak with saber, attack fails, you can account for whereabouts of that Jedi. Using cloak raises connection to the Dark Side, allowing access to Sith attacking powers. Remove Force Breath from candidate.

Force the Sith to destroy this Jedi, instead of your light side ones. Otherwise this Jedi will become very powerful with the Dark Side and be a vigilante threat. If a player uses extremely powerful dark side abilities, and they shouldn't have access to them, they were a Sith all along.

Force Light- weakens a dark-sider's connection to the force.

Have vigilantes attack user with saber. All use the wrong saber form. Make sure user is strong with the saber and has lots of boosting powers. When Force Light is used on the attackers, it raises their connection to the Light Side of the Force.

Drain Knowledge- removes one power from target and absorbs it

Use this to establish parity in power levels. Have lesser ranked Jedi steal powers from higher ranked Jedi, so the endgame is more even and no one has the advantage.

If the person steals a power that the other player should not have access to, such as powerful dark side abilities, and that player was never on the dark side, then that player is a Sith.

Force Morichro- Acts as a roleblocking power.

Wasn't used very much this game, actually, which is surprising. It can stop so many force attacks, and it will force the Sith to attack with sabers, which allows moves such as Grip and Push to be more useful as defenses. Morichro was still overpowered, even if it allowed recruitment and saber attacks to still succeed. I am dumbfounded it wasn't used more.

Attack with saber versus someone with Push or better.

Account for their whereabouts. Again, forces Sith to use saber powers, and even prevents them from being able to kill with those same powers.

If these tactics were used, this game would have been over in half the time. Jedi team was overpowered, but the solutions were not meant to be obvious or known. You would have had to arrive at these conclusions by understanding how these powers worked (that's what the Holocron was for) and then deducing what you could do with such powers.

Now that I have stated these solutions, I have to create counterplay for the mafia in the next game, rendering these solutions at least somewhat ineffective. But some of these tactics will still be useful, if not game-breaking, next time.

Thoughts?

**pevergreen** · 12-29-2010, 17:41

Most of what you've said is true, but it remains that this is mafia. Town will not work together, because they can't trust each other. Not only that, but not everyone knew the same information. We didn't know if stuff moved you to the light side or not. People didn't realise I was a force ghost, don't follow the game.

In theory, yes.

In practice, as shown by this game, no.

**Ironside** · 12-29-2010, 17:46

1. True. That was a bit of mistake that took way too long to fix. Of course he needed to be a knight to defeat Beskar on night 1. But that didn't fully occur to any of us until after Kage died.

2, 3. The Beskar exposure was down to luck. Admittably I didn't think much about how Kage was caught. Had he been more successful killing earlier on, we would probably killed him.
That was when he started to use tier 2 powers that he went up a lot on the threat list. Was busy on Igno for the time. Really, night 17 was the night when we made our big mistake on this. And n17 was a mess up in more than 1 way. n18 Psycho got roleblocked, n19 needing a recruit and we don't talk about n20.

Before night 15 was also possible. But true, killing Chaotix was better than trying to get the identity of the Dark one in retrospect.

4, 5. Renata not having breath made us careful about not exposing her. That Final Judgement worked extra as a very powerful defense is a bit tricky to find out. Sure, you would probably say that if we asked, but combing the most powerful vigi kill power with one of the most powerful defenses isn't your first thought. That's really a

was that?- first encounter skill.

About your list. Some could really have been used more. Some of the more advanced tactics were hard to figure out, as you probably intended. But true, a skilled town would've been much more effective.
Morichro for example, that one is scary as a Sith. Psycho got scanned by Jooray and had "unclear" by Force Vision. Yet none came from it.

**Romanic** · 12-29-2010, 17:47

I want to add this game to the gameroom statistics but I have not followed it since I've been wogged. ATPG can you answer these questions please?

1. Dark Jedi: Are they neutral or mafia?

2. Was Chaotix a Dark Jedi? Was he neutral?

3. Do you have a list of replacements handy? And who they replaced?

Right now I know that Rasko, SiPi, Zack, Slysnake, TinCow, khaan, Sasaki, Yaropolk and Skooma replaced someone, but I would need to dig in the thread to find out who they replaced, or if there were more than these 9 replacements.

4. Do I understand the result correctly?
Winners (1) : Chaotix
Losers (8) : All the Sith except Kage (5- Psychonaut, Renata, Beskar, Ironside, wideyedwanderer) and all the Dark Jedi (3- Diana, Belisarius, Joooray)
Draw (everyone else!) - except the WOGs and replaced players.

5. Which players started as Town and turned out Sith?

6. I'm sure I had another question but I forgot. It'll come back... eventually.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-29-2010, 17:48

Originally Posted by pevergreen

Most of what you've said is true, but it remains that this is mafia. Town will not work together, because they can't trust each other.

You're more pessimistic than I am in this regard, which is fine. Maybe you're right in some cases, but I have been in enough mafia games with multiple night actions to see that people will behave in groups in spite of their lack of trust in one another. The next logical step is organizing those groups to function effectively in their short-term goals. If you assume such groups are to be infiltrated by mafia, the objective becomes forcing the mafia to do things they don't want to do, Capo-style.

not everyone knew the same information. We didn't know if stuff moved you to the light side or not

It was in the Jedi holocrons. It was the Grandmaster's prerogative to inform the town or keep them in the dark. For the most part, a keeping in the dark strategy was chosen, and only certain information was released. In theory, plus a realistic chance of people figuring this out = I believe my points are still valid. That said, I agree some of what I offered as solutions required deeper knowledge of the game, which means knowledge of the holocron data, which means it was always up to the Grandmaster (and informed Force Ghosts) to perform some of the organizing required to pull off these tactics. But it was all do-able.

edit:

1. Dark Jedi: Are they neutral or mafia?

Neutral.

2. Was Chaotix a Dark Jedi? Was he neutral?

Yes, yes.

3. Do you have a list of replacements handy? And who they replaced?

I can get this for you later; I have work in an hour. If someone else can check, that'd be awesome.

4. Do I understand the result correctly?
Winners (1) : Chaotix
Losers (8) : All the Sith except Kage (5- Psychonaut, Renata, Beskar, Ironside, wideyedwanderer) and all the Dark Jedi (3- Diana, Belisarius, Joooray)
Draw (everyone else!) - except the WOGs and replaced players.

Winner: Chaotix
Losers: Sith besides Kage, Dark Jedi besides Chaotix
Draw: Everyone else
WOG/replace: However you want to mark it; I'd mark it as WOG since you have that category.

5. Which players started as Town and turned out Sith?

Ironside, Renata, Wideyedwanderer.

**Romanic** · 12-29-2010, 18:13

Thanks for your answers, ATPG.

Can you list all the Dark Jedi? Here's what I have, taken from the last writeup: Diana, Belisarius, Joooray and Chaotix.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 12-29-2010, 18:14

Originally Posted by Romanic

Thanks for your answers, ATPG.

Can you list all the Dark Jedi? Here's what I have, taken from the last writeup: Diana, Belisarius, Joooray and Chaotix.

That's all of them.

**Romanic** · 12-29-2010, 18:29

Thanks again.

Don't worry about the replacement list, I got it from the information thread.

**Renata** · 12-29-2010, 19:15

The only true complaint I have about the balancing is the situation with Sith force ghosts, in that the incentives for the Sith were screwed up. The Sith needed force ghosts at the end of the game in order to have a proportional voice in the voting (as it was, near the end it was like 2 of us versus 20 townies or some such, despite the living numbers being much more reasonable), yet the only way to get a Sith ghost was to die -- that is, to play so poorly you wound up with a bunch of newbie Sith running around ineffectively trying to kill people. Something just not right there.

The rest is likely influenced by us )(*#&%)#@(*%)(*^)(#*&^ losing.

I do have to say that one thing Ironside pointed out -- me not having Force Breath and never getting it -- had a huge, if usually invisible, influence on most of our decisions. If I'd had that, for example, I could well see me being the non-compliant one on the night Psychonaut was exposed, rather than him. Which we arguably should have done anyway, but still.

Also, Pizzaguy, you missed my early-game FOS of Psychonaut over pevergreen revealing scan results -- my one and only moment of townie glory this game, and a good example of mafiate-humor that *did* work, in how he deflected me.

**TinCow** · 12-29-2010, 19:16

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

If these tactics were used, this game would have been over in half the time. Jedi team was overpowered, but the solutions were not meant to be obvious or known. You would have had to arrive at these conclusions by understanding how these powers worked (that's what the Holocron was for) and then deducing what you could do with such powers.

Now that I have stated these solutions, I have to create counterplay for the mafia in the next game, rendering these solutions at least somewhat ineffective. But some of these tactics will still be useful, if not game-breaking, next time.

Thoughts?

I can only speak for myself, but I never gave much thought to how the ability/defense system worked. I just picked whatever seemed most powerful based on the descriptions in the role PM. I did not receive any information from anyone during the game about what defenses countered what attacks. While I'm sure some of that could have been gleamed from the write-ups, their sheer size deterred me from doing much analysis of them. Lots of text may make for a good narrative, but I doubt it the majority of players have the time to be able to read it in sufficient detail to pull out all the game mechanics you apparently put in.

**Renata** · 12-29-2010, 19:30

That was definitely an issue for me; I was pressed for time for almost the entire game. If I had been townie, though, I would have been doing that more toward the end. (See, Pizza, I'm "helpful" even when I actually am town! :p ) That was one thing Ironside did very well for the Sith team.

**Chaotix** · 12-29-2010, 20:28

With regards to that list of town powers:

I can't say for sure what was going on beforehand, but once I became Grandmaster, I made a conscious effort to keep the town relying on me instead of thinking for themselves. I told them all to use vigilante powers and the occasional roleblock, but never any of the other light side powers. I knew that Morichro was still overpowered, because my main method of killing anyone was through Force powers and not lightsaber- for that reason I made sure I was very careful with who I wanted to use it. It's also partially the reason I called for anyone with Morichro to reveal to me.

I kind of flipped when I did wind up getting roleblocked trying to kill Psychonaut that last time before we lynched him to death, and when Diana turned up innocent I realized it had to be the other Sith that blocked me. Did the mental work and realized it had to be either Renata or Csargo, so I killed them both.

It's worth noting that all of those offers I made the Sith I would have stuck to until the final round. Then, during said final round, I was always planning to betray them and kill them off. I had a more favorable policy toward the Jedi and was leaning towards winning with them, but I knew if I had the chance to do so I would definitely betray them. I remember telling ATPG after Diana died that the event horizon for town victory had passed.

I'd say I was definitely in a unique position in this game. Certainly before I became a Master I was in a precarious position: easy kill by either Kagemusha or Psychonaut, and pevergreen knew what I was and didn't trust me. Either the Jedi or the Sith could have offed me easily, and I'm surprised I wasn't lynched at all. The town certainly didn't trust me until I became GM, and even then it was shaky. I knew from the beginning that my plan would have to be to seem like a pro-town vigilante, and whenever I told people my victory conditions I always lied and said "Destroy all Sith and survive". Managing to hit a Sith on the first night was really lucky and it helped a lot, because I then had credibility. My goal was definitely to become the Grandmaster ASAP, because of the holocron and the "Don't lynch the GM" mentality that the town had; the extra power boost was an added perk.

I also tried at one point to assemble a group of Dark Jedi, but I quickly found out that there simply weren't any to assemble with. Ignoramus, Diamondeye, and Renata were all part of a group I put together that I called the "Order of the Black Knights"; they all had vigilante abilities so I thought I could get them to fall eventually and join me in earnest. By the time I became GM, everybody had vig abilities so the Order was no longer needed. Still couldn't get anyone to fall, though. Diana actively opposed me and actually fell on her own; you can bet I was pissed when we killed her.

But before I ramble on any longer, I think I'll say this. I personally think my victory can be attributed to:
-Revealing early to pevergreen.
-Actively and successfully killing Sith.
-Gaining the trust of the town.
-Making sure the Sith could easily figure out I was not pro-town.

In that way, I managed to avoid attention from both sides and play them against each other. It was a great game; probably the most fun I've had in a mafia game ever.

Poll: This game is flipping sweet!

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