Osama Bin Laden is Dead

[Lemur]

The big questions do not matter. All that has changed the past 10 years (for the worse mainly) mean nothing, because an elderly man got assassinated.

Maybe this line of reasoning will make a little more sense to you:

The reason for the joy is actually less obvious. It is, at its best, I think, not vengeance or relief - although they are within us all, at various levels of suppression. The joy comes because somewhere we feel for the first time in so long that this hideous, bungled, tortuous, torture-filled decade of war and mass murder might, after all, have some smidgen of emotional closure, some sliver of justice in its long arc, some core thread leading to something we can call victory.

I think especially of all those young Americans who, on September 12 2001, woke up and decided to serve their country in her hour of need. I think of all those who signed up for war because of 9/11. And let's face it. They did not sign up because they wanted to re-shape the Middle East, or bring democracy to Iraq, or to bribe Hamid Karzai.

They signed up to find, capture, or kill Osama bin Laden.

They signed up to attack everything he represents.

It gives bin Laden too much credit to say he made them soldiers. But they became soldiers because of his crime and what he had done to the country they loved.

Many of them were cheering last night. But many were not alive to do so. I think particularly of those men and women now. They died in battle not knowing that America would eventually, finally find this murderer, and bring him to justice. Imagine telling them now, as if they were still alive, "We got him! We got bin Laden!" Imagine the look on their faces. Imagine what you see in their eyes.

And then look at their faces as you also tell them that it was done by Navy SEALS, in a gun-battle, where bin Laden was given the option of surrender, and refused. And then we ensured that his funeral was a dignified one, in accordance with the protocols of Islam.

Which is to say to our heroes: You did not die in vain. And your comrades finished the job.

And who can not feel joy at that?

[Veho Nex]

So Osama Bin Laden is dead... Amazing what the Americans can do when the Playstation Network is down.

[PanzerJaeger]

Remember back in the days when he was a CIA sponsored freedom fighter? Oh how fast it goes from hero to zero.

This is always brought up by the usual suspects as some sort of 'ah hah!' moment. Well yes, he did go from hero to zero, but the transformation was his and his alone.

He made the conscious decision to transition from fighting the military forces of an unwelcome occupation to the intentional targetting of civilians. Had he stuck to military targets, that line of reasoning would hold more water (although the US military's presence in Saudi Arabia that bin Laden equated to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was in fact sought after and sanctioned by Saudi Arabia).

[Hax]

Remember back in the days when he was a CIA sponsored freedom fighter? Oh how fast it goes from hero to zero.

While there was CIA funding for the mujahideen in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, Osama bin Laden personally never dealt with America.

I agree with the rest of your post.

[Shibumi]

Yeah yeah, he was bad. Jesus would throw the first stone I am sure.

[Vuk]

Yeah yeah, he was bad. Jesus would throw the first stone I am sure.

weak joke removed. Too much risk of offense for too little humor. SF

Seriously though, why do you sympathize with someone like Obama bin Laden? Why is it wrong to celebrate that we will never have to worry about mass murder from that mad-man anymore?

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Shibumi]

Seriously though, why do you sympathize with someone like Obama bin Laden? Why is it wrong to celebrate that we will never have to worry about mass murder from that mad-man anymore?

First of all (and more importantly) I try to sympathize with everyone. Give it a try, it open up new worlds.

Secondly (and way less important) I use this forum to help me with TWS2. I honestly had not even noticed a feature to make friends here. This may shock you, but I seek other paths in life to make friends than a forum dedicated for a primarily single player strategical game. [shock!]

[ajaxfetish]

Wise but now superfluous comment removed. Ajax

[Lemur]

Hey, let's not get too personal here. Let's debate Shibumi's ideas, not his person.

Shibumi, surely your "sympathize with everyone" perspective might lead you to consider the feelings of OBL's many, many victims? Consider the immediate victims of his attacks, which number somewhere in the neighborhood of six thousand. Then consider that the most recent Afghan war would not have taken place if he had not attacked us on our soil. Consider the epic loss of life that stemmed from this man's actions. And as the blog I linked discussed, consider the idealistic men and women who signed up for the military in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, many of whom gave their lives to oppose OBL's insane vision of a global caliphate.

Given the toil, sweat, blood and tears that have flowed from OBL's actions, don't Americans have some small right to celebrate his demise?

[Shibumi]

Hey, let's not get too personal here. Let's debate Shibumi's ideas, not his person.

Shibumi, surely your "sympathize with everyone" perspective might lead you to consider the feelings of OBL's many, many victims? Consider the immediate victims of his attacks, which number somewhere in the neighborhood of six thousand. Then consider that the most recent Afghan war would not have taken place if he had not attacked us on our soil. Consider the epic loss of life that stemmed from this man's actions. And as the blog I linked discussed, consider the idealistic men and women who signed up for the military in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, many of whom gave their lives to oppose OBL's insane vision of a global caliphate.

Given the toil, sweat, blood and tears that have flowed from OBL's actions, don't Americans have some small right to celebrate his demise?

OBM, much like Che Guevarra, fought US imperialism, or so some say.

The USA is a renegade in foreign politics. The blood toll on every dollar is immense. When was the last time USA had a peaceful decade? How far back do you have to go? USA is in a state of perpetual warfare, can anyone not agree? The USA is the Satan of the modern world, and the goals it can not reach militarily it will try to reach through political or financial warfare.

Do I believe what I just wrote? no.

Just as little as I believe assassinations should be a source of national pride.

It is a sick world. Do you want to shoot it out or reason it out?

[Veho Nex]

The USA is a renegade in foreign politics. The blood toll on every dollar is immense. When was the last time USA had a peaceful decade? How far back do you have to go? USA is in a state of perpetual warfare, can anyone not agree? The USA is the Satan of the modern world, and the goals it can not reach militarily it will try to reach through political or financial warfare.

Satan of the modern world, because we as a country are so inherently evil that every one of our achievements is another country's blemish.

Also, look up a list of any Major power and find a decade where there was some sort of conflict going on. Find me one power who has had a decade of peace in the last 250 years.

[Shibumi]

I guess it is kind of endearing when you get flamed for something you yourself followed up with

Do I believe what I just wrote? no.

What was that old slogan of the US education system? "No child left behind"?

I think the US would do a lot better waging war on bad education. I am sure a lot less would be killed, and who knows, it might even do some good!

[spmetla]

He was a bad dude, I'm glad he's finally been killed. I'm also happy in the manner it was done instead of some missile strike it allowed us to ensure we knew who we killed.

His burial was more than what he deserved, no dragging him through the streets beating the corpse with shoes here.

RIP to all the innocent dead on his account or from our pursuit of him.

Cheers to the Navy Seals!

[tibilicus]

Moral of this saga- America ALWAYS wins..

[Major Robert Dump]

While it is easy to focus on the bad things a person has done, we must not forget Bin Laden the Father, Bin Laden the brother, Bin Laden the dancer, and Bin Laden the baker of tastey goods. Everyone has their trying times, and he had no shortage of his. In the end, he was just a man.

Growing up surrounded by Indonesian house servants who wash your balls and let you impregnate them is not an easy life. OBL showed some extra character above others of his kind, for when he got one pregnant he did not send the Shia woman back to her family to be murdered, but rather he murdered her himself. He was a man who solved his own problems.

Let us also not forget that through scientific experimentation and trial and error, OBL helped perfect a method of beheading (front right to back left), carefully avoiding the spinal cord, that ensured the victim stayed alive for the entire ordeal until ultimately dying of lack of oxygen, drowning on blood or bleeding to death. Gone were the days of terrifying, quick beheadings. OBL gave us something that lasted several minutes. While most people may not want to give credit where credit is due, one thing is for certain -- the victims sure noticed!

OBL could also cut a rug. He loved to dance, especially with other men and young boys. While some may call it homosexual, it was not gay because love was not involved. In fact, the term "superman-ing hoes" actually started in the moutnains of Pakistan on thursday night, where it was originally called "superman-ing chai boys." Man, the guys lined up for the gang rape always got a kick out of that one, especially when OBL would do a little jig afterwards. Good times.

And let us not forget the loving father. To show that he was willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, he tried to talk his young sons into being suicide bombers. What a selfless man, for if those two died, he would only have 33 sons left! When those two sons said no, he tried to tempt them with tastey home baked cupcakes, and they still said no. Some people are just disrespectful to their fathers I guess, but he loved them anyway, just as much as the other sons he had with his secret 15 year old wives. I mean, to take in a nubile 15 year old and protect her, cuddle her, beat her and leave her to rot in a shack raaising kids all alone while he went around the world playing terrorist -- imagine how much worse off she could have been!

So yeah, laugh all you want, people. OBL may have been a "bad guy," a "meanie," and a "tourorist"(thanks W), but while you all celebrate his death, he is rocking out in heaven with Liberace and Freddy Mercury. The last laugh is definitely his.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Thank you, MRD, for bringing some nuance and subtlety to this thread. Before celebrating yesterday's succes, one ought to bear in mind the many different roles and the difficult life of Osama.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For the sake of some other perspective:

Bin Laden threatens France
Al-Qaeda leader says in audio tape hostages will die if country does not pull out troops from Muslim lands.

The leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, has called for the withdrawal of French troops from Muslim lands in exchange for the release of hostages, in an audio message.
Referring to French hostages being held in Niger, the speaker on the tape, who sounded like Bin Laden, says their release depended on moves by their own government.
He says France will pay dearly for its policy in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

"President Nicolas Sarkozy's refusal to remove his forces from Afghanistan is nothing but a green light for killing the French hostages," Bin Laden says in the recording, broadcast on Al Jazeera on Friday.
"We repeat the same message to you: The release of your prisoners in the hands of our brothers is linked to the withdrawal of your soldiers from our country."
This is the second tape that Bin Laden, believed to be hiding in the mountainous border areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan, has released an audio recording attacking French policy and linking the French presence in Afghanistan to the kidnapping of its nationals in Niger.

Seven foreigners, including five French nationals, were kidnapped in Niger in September, with the group's north African wing Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) claiming responsibility.
AQIM also claimed responsibility for two Frenchmen found dead last week after a failed rescue attempt in Niger, but the group did not say how the men died.
Following the kidnappings last year, an AQIM spokesman, Salah Abi Mohammed, said in an audio message: "We inform the French government that the mujahedeen will later transmit their legitimate demands."
The September kidnapping was an escalation of hostilities between AQIM and France.

AQIM killed 78-year-old Frenchman Michel Germaneu last July after French commandos took part in a failed raid to free him.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/mi...280492354.html

From today's 'Le Monde' newspaper:




How the Americans have arrested Ben Laden

'You have the right to remain silent, anything you say etc'



Go yanks!

[PanzerJaeger]

While it is easy to focus on the bad things a person has done, we must not forget Bin Laden the Father, Bin Laden the brother, Bin Laden the dancer, and Bin Laden the baker of tastey goods.

[ajaxfetish]

The leader of al-Qaeda, Osama bin Laden, has called for the withdrawal of French troops from Muslim lands

So where would all the French troops go? They clearly couldn't remain in France.

Ajax

[Crazed Rabbit]

A man in Washington has shaved his beard after swearing not to shave it until bin Laden was captured or killed on September 11:

EPHRATA, Wash. – Ephrata Middle School teacher Gary Weddle vowed on September 11, 2001 to stop shaving until Osama bin Laden was caught.
On Monday, after almost ten years, he finally shaved off his lengthy beard.
KREM 2 News covered this story back in 2003, when he had not shaved for almost two years.
At the time Weddle said, "Everyday I'm reminded that there's terrible tragedies in the world and this isn't the first and it won't be the last."
The school’s principal, Jill Palmquist, honored him on Monday and gave the following speech to the students:
Ephrata Middle School would like to take a few moments today to honor and recognize a very unique individual who is among us on a daily basis.

On September 11th 2001, Gary Weddle came to school and told his science students that in support of the United States Military and for the freedoms that America stands for, he would not shave until Osama Bin Laden was captured or killed.

CR

[Strike For The South]

OBM, much like Che Guevarra, fought US imperialism, or so some say.

The USA is a renegade in foreign politics. The blood toll on every dollar is immense. When was the last time USA had a peaceful decade? How far back do you have to go? USA is in a state of perpetual warfare, can anyone not agree? The USA is the Satan of the modern world, and the goals it can not reach militarily it will try to reach through political or financial warfare.

Do I believe what I just wrote? no.

Just as little as I believe assassinations should be a source of national pride.

It is a sick world. Do you want to shoot it out or reason it out?

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

Sometimes you need to crack a few skulls. That's simply the way the world works, one can have reservations but you sound like a blinded college libreal whose spent to much time trying to pretend he's smarter than everyone else simply due to the fact he took a dissenting opinoin

Critical thinking skills, use them

[Louis VI the Fat]

The more details have emerged, the more I marvel at the quality of the operation. So much was well done: the intelligence was obviously excellent. The choice for and flawless execution of the risky, difficult direct engagement over the much easier missile. The funeral at sea - all of the other options are more problematic, I think. A firefight that killed all of the right people, none of the US ones, and no collateral damage. The operation was done quickly and 'quietly', in-and-out like Frodo sneaking straight into Mordor. Awesome.

~~o~~o~~<<oo>>~~o~~o~~

Obama looked remarkably confident last Friday. Very defiant in his mockery of Donald Trump, almost smug. I wonder how much he knew already. Was he aware already the nature of his presidency was about to take a decisive turn, a complete game changer?
This can't be beat for pr. I already relish in the one-liners Obama can use againts his critics, againt next year's opponents. I do hope Obama does not get too carried away when he visits New York later this week. He shouldn't milk this for all it's worth. He should just win a re-election with it.

~~o~~o~~<<oo>>~~o~~o~~

A very good thought:

This is a triumph for the United States of America, for our soldiers and intelligence operatives, and for the president as well. But it is not quite the triumph that it would have seemed if bin Laden had been captured a decade ago, because those 10 years have taught us that we didn’t need to fear him and his rabble as much as we did, temporarily but intensely, in the weeks when ground zero still smoked.

They’ve taught us, instead, that whatever blunders we make (and we have made many), however many advantages we squander (and there has been much squandering), and whatever quagmires we find ourselves lured into, our civilization is not fundamentally threatened by the utopian fantasy politics embodied by groups like Al Qaeda, or the mix of thugs, fools and pseudointellectuals who rally around their banner.

They can strike us, they can wound us, they can kill us. They can goad us into tactical errors and strategic blunders. But they are not, and never will be, an existential threat.

This was not clear immediately after 9/11. On that day, they took us by surprise. They took advantage of our society’s great strength — its openness and freedom, the welcome it gives to immigrants and the presumption of innocence it extends. And in the wake of their attack, we did not know what they were capable of, or how they might follow up their victory.

Now we know. We know because bin Laden is finally dead and gone, but in a sense we knew already. [...]

Day after day, hour after hour, we learned that we were strong and they were weak.

Excellent thoughts indeed.

~~o~~o~~<<oo>>~~o~~o~~

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So where would all the French troops go? They clearly couldn't remain in France.

Ajax

I believe such niceties as ten million Muslims living in France don't mean to the terrorists that Frenchmen in Muslim countries oughtn't be blown up. AQ made good on that Bin Laden's promise to attack Frenchmen in the Maghreb. Although completely dwarfed by 9-11, to me this is not only about settling an ancient score. The seven dead Frenchmen of last Thursday's attack have not yet been buried. Lord only knows how stretched and tenuous the link between that, between AQ in the Islamic Maghreb with OBL is, but it is there. Osama is still a figurehead, right up until his death he was still releasing tapes announcing dead Frenchmen, and making good on that promise.
Dozens of other countries throughout Europe, Africa and Asia have similar stories.

This is, and should be, all about 9-11. But it is also more. It is not just an assassination without a fair trial. We are not celebrating just a cold blooded murder. This is about an active mass murderer who got stopped right in his track.

PARIS, April 30 (Reuters) - An explosion that killed 15 people in Marrakesh was triggered by a remote control device, not a suicide bomber as previous reports suggested, France's interior minister said in an interview published on Saturday.

The blast on Thursday ripped through a popular cafe overlooking Marrakesh's Jamaa el-Fnaa square at lunchtime on Thursday. Western security analysts attributed the attack to Islamist militants bent on ruining Morocco's tourism industry."Contrary to what was being said earlier, there was no suicide bomber," Claude Gueant told weekly newspaper Le Journal du Dimanche. "Somebody dropped a bag on the ground and the bomb was detonated remotely."

The bomb contained nails, ammonium nitrate and a high explosive called TATP that was also used in a series of bombings on the Paris underground system in 1995, he said.

"The toll for now is 15 dead of which seven French people and about 10 injured including two very badly wounded."

France has been on high alert for a terror attack over the past year after Islamist militants took five French nationals hostage in the Sahel region of Africa and al Qaeda chief Osama Bin Laden singled out France in an audio recording.
Stringent anti-terror laws have helped to avoid an attack on French soil since the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks in the United States. But militants are increasingly targeting French assets abroad, particularly in Africa.
Al Qaeda's north African branch released messages this week from four French hostages it kidnapped last September in Niger calling for France to withdraw its troops from Afghanistan -- repeating Bin Laden's call. [ID:nLDE73Q05S]
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...73T02520110430

I think I went to that place on my trip to Morocco. It's crowded, always packed. Lots of tourists and locals mingle there. They knew exactly what they were targetting.

Now I'm trying to see the bigger picture here, but I somehow fail to come up with bigger insights about some AQ murderers who kill French tourists for having tea with their local Muslim friends. Even when I bear in mind all of Osama's political ramblings - so recognisable because they are indistinguishable from those of stoned fifteen year olds getting their first rebel haircut; even when empathisisng how Osama suffered as a young Palestian boy by the hands of Israel; even when sharing his anger that all those white girls at Oxford humiliated him by not immediately dropping on their knees to wash his balls - even when bearing all that in mind, I just fail to come up with much regret over his death.


Call me insensitive, or lacking deeper insight.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Strike For The South]

You are parroting my veiws back to me, IDK what you are getting at other than wanting to rant


I took most issue with the line "reason it out or shoot it out"

As if it were that simple

[a completely inoffensive name]

...

[Strike For The South]

i am trying to say that i am just annoyed by your insistence to label people who dont like the celebrating as "college liberals" when a comparison of the arguments shows a 99% similarity. i hinted at this earlier but you just replied "im complicated damn it."

Can a man not reach his nadir in peace?

Even Spielberg had Hook

[Crazed Rabbit]

It's good for this man to die, and it's ok to be proud that we finally killed him in pursuit of justice for 9/11, but cheering on the act of death/murder itself is disgusting. I don't care if that is how the world works and I don't care if Americans are no more civilized than the Roman's cheering on their favorite gladiators as they move in for the kill, it's still disturbing to wave flags and feel happy because a life has been taken. People should be regretting that we couldn't try him in a court of law and then execute him, not having tears of joy because they put one in his head. I mean, that would have been impossible becuase he obviously fought back (and used a woman as a shield, that coward).

Bah. It is right, I think, to feel joy that this sick murderer is dead. Less people will be dead by him, and he has received justice for his crimes.

How can it be wrong to feel happy such a man is dead? How can it be wrong to wave the flag when a man who did his utmost to destroy this nation (though he never came close to an existential threat) has been defeated?

Any trial would be a farce and give his followers yet more opportunities to attack in order to demand his release. It would have meant more dead innocents. I am not sad in the least.

Violence is not always bad; a person being killed is not bad when it is a cowardly murderer being killed, when lives are saved because of that.

CR

[Lemur]

[D]id you know that the new Osama could be reaching puberty right now because we failed to realize that militant Islamic terrorism goes beyond one man?

Actually, if you take history as a guide, movements such as Al Qaeda rarely survive the death of a charismatic leader. So this really does mean something, no matter what you existentialist impulses tell you as you smoke your clove cigarettes in a beatnik cafe.

Al Qaeda is not an organization that commands massive resources. It doesn’t have a big army. It doesn’t have vast reservoirs of funds that it can direct easily across the world. [...]

History teaches us that the loss of the charismatic leader - of the symbol - is extraordinarily damaging for the organization. It is very difficult to keep such an organization together, particularly in the absence of great power backers.

In the case of al Qaeda, this is a virtual organization held together by its message and the inspiration it provided. A large part of that inspiration was bin Laden. Ayman Zawahiri may have been the brains behind the outfit, but he did not excite people. When people volunteered for jihad, they were volunteering to be bin Laden’s foot soldiers, not Ayman Zawahiri’s or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s. The loss of bin Laden’s personality is hugely important because it was so much part of al Qaeda’s appeal.

In addition, we must remember that the death of bin Laden is not occurring in a vacuum. The Arab Awakening has already crippled the basic rationale of al Qaeda.

[a completely inoffensive name]

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[Fragony]

Cheering I could stomach. Chest-thumping? Not so much.

"Yeah! OBL is dead! USA, USA! We're #1!. (Pay no mind to the trillions of dollars, Constitutional costs, thousands of American soldiers' lives, and countless lives in occupied lands spent)"

Not really much to be proud of

Couldn't agree more, although the cheering is pretty embarrassing as well. If I was a terrorist I'd lol@that, mission ackomplished