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  1. #1
    VictorGB Member Trapped in Samsara's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Hi

    When RL stops cr@pping on me (my boss has resigned = huge increase in my workload) I intend writing up some thoughts on my first Redux campaign as the Italians, i.e., the Venetians.

    But just want to say I think what you've done with the sea regions plus giving rebels the ability to build pirate fleets is genius, Axalon. It works on so many levels, with maybe the best being the disruption to trade which massively impacts on the player, of course.

    As the Venetians my conquest strategy has virtually been dictated to me by the need to keep 'pirate suppression fleets' at sea to stop the b@$t@rd$ from cutting my (very lucrative) trade routes. Pretty historical, I believe. So I have, e.g., taken the Crimea to have a port on the Black Sea to keep the support costs sensible.

    Also, haven't encountered any stacks with stupid amounts of artillery - which has been a longstanding gripe of mine.

    Also, the other night I got my @r$e kicked by the Lithuanians in a battle I expected to win, and lost my 4 star (= second best) general in the process. It's been a while since something like that has happened to me in MTW. Refreshing.

    Thanks Axalon.

    Best regards
    Victor

    Sapere aude
    Horace

  2. #2

    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Hi and thanks for posting guys…

    ------------------------------------
    Baron

    It certainly has, but that don’t make me any less happy to see you posting here once again.



    ------------------------------------
    Staz

    In general, I think your inexperience with redux is the main cause and source to most remarks in your post – and thus, I suggest that you gather more experience and solid understanding of Redux before you do further suppositions about it (as it is, the stuff can so easily be deceptive and misleading to casual readers here, even if that was probably not your intention, I still fail to see how such circumstances is somehow desirable here. We should try to avoid that as much as possible, at all times. Everybody wins that way, this includes you too). And, you will probably find plenty of answers and surprises in regards to your own post that way.

    Anyway, if you got problems in battle with Byzantine and Catholic “tanks” etc. Just make a post in the “Battle & tactics”-thread and I or anybody else with enough experience in reduxed combat can help you out there - as it is still very possible to defeat them with Muslim forces - and outside the desert too…

    Camel Archers are not “totally worthless”; if that had been true they would not be able to do anything worthwhile in battle – that is not true. Revise your tactics and get more experience and you will realize that. Camels are slower then horses (as usual) and thus skirmishing on infantry is more viable tactic...

    • RXB1002 will include Muslim horse archers as this has been an oversight by me.
    • RXB1002 will get new infopics on Slave Militias. I will make a better and more representative one. The old CA-pic will be removed…



    ------------------------------------
    Berserkr...

    Thanks and welcome to this place… It’s nice that at least some people recognise and value the work done on portraits, stratmap etc. etc. Anyway, interesting strategy with the English – as you already pointed out it is hardly very sustainable one as it is a virtual timebomb just waiting to go boom…


    Rebels & pirates
    --------------------------
    Personally, I think that one should contain the rebels as soon as possible or when one can afford it. At least in the relevant region of interest - before they get too dangerous and strong there – as they can at times. If rebels are left alone for too long in provinces with ports and castles they will obviously grow stronger, with more troops and ships, eventually becoming truly dangerous as long as they stay there… We are more or less forced to actively fight them in Redux - sooner or later – or there might be chaos all over the map. Still, I have seen plenty of campaigns were it never comes to that as they are pretty fast reduced to obscurity in some corner. This is Redux, so it can go either way, depending on what happens in game. Anyway, allowing the rebels/pirates too many functional ports and wharfs is never a good idea in the long run….


    Factions & unit-rosters
    --------------------------
    In Redux I work with cultures and regions rather then single factions. Because of that circumstance, some factions have very similar unit-clusters assigned to them while others have very special ones. England, Norse and Byzantines for instance have very special unit-clusters (there are both benefits and drawbacks with that, as it should be). The HRE, Lithuania and Russia have also plenty of that. Poland and Hungary to some degree too. While France/Burgundy or Italy/Lombardy or Spain/Portugal/Aragon (essentially) has similar units and tactical profiles (as they are in the same regions, same cultures, same war-traditions etc. etc.), and so does Saracens/Moors (essentially). This is how things are designed. Region and culture (and also war-traditions) is what primarily matters - not the faction as such.

    I know that many others have designed with such faction-perspectives, as did CA, but I don’t like it much personally, thus I abandoned that. I prefer region and culture instead as done in Redux. And in contrast, I prefer when all units have at least some clear function and purpose in battle, if not unique, then at least distinctive. As in “quality in parts” (reduction, distinctiveness in traits and purpose etc.) is better then “quantity in parts” (addition, standardization in traits and purpose etc.) – the latter is however a common design-approach in most major stuff.



    Quote Originally Posted by berserkr View Post
    Germany it is definitely much harder since your land income is meager and once you start attacking rebels, you have no chance of getting sea trade going because each sea region will have a million rebel ships
    Yup, that is fairly true. Especially games upon VI/V.2.01 it seems (due to slow starting activity by the Norse). It is a bit problematic as the pirate-fleets can easily become too powerful if we play HRE (with other starting-factions this is hardly a problem). I have already investigated these very circumstances before but I have yet to find a good and acceptable solution to it – all things considered. Still, we can all the same counter it in Redux, but that requires a determined strategy of reducing functional pirate-ports and preferably building up a few ports to the HRE as well. And preferably fast.

    If we do that, then it is still very possible to have some sea-trade as the HRE as well. I like when pirates are strong but as you say “millions of ships” are too much – some 50-60 ships over the map would have been much better, however I have yet to find a really good way to make that happen due to the engine (the ship-stats don’t work, never did in MTW, otherwise that could have been one possible solution). Thus, if we truly want sea-trade with HRE, we must actively fight for it in a way that is much harder then with other factions.



    Quote Originally Posted by berserkr View Post
    …I did not really like the Byzantine units,
    Well, that’s a shame, you can’t win them all I guess… Anyway, they are good enough for me (and others) anyhow. You can always include units on your own as already pointed out - there are vacant slots for it in RXB1001 – “Additional01” etc. etc.


    • Pope and HRE knights have “white-horses” as the faction-colours would be crappy in V.1.1 thus I decided to stick with the old white for those two. As simple as that.



    ------------------------------------
    If I somehow forgot something here, by all means remind me… Victor, I'll
    get back to your stuff in another separate post (soonish hopefully)...

    - Cheers
    Last edited by Axalon; 05-27-2011 at 16:08. Reason: formatting...

  3. #3
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    In general, I think your inexperience with redux is the main cause and source to most remarks in your post – and thus, I suggest that you gather more experience and solid understanding of Redux before you do further suppositions about it (as it is, the stuff can so easily be deceptive and misleading to casual readers here, even if that was probably not your intention, I still fail to see how such circumstances is somehow desirable here. We should try to avoid that as much as possible, at all times. Everybody wins that way, this includes you too). And, you will probably find plenty of answers and surprises in regards to your own post that way.
    As I wrote at the start of my post - it was my first impression so I think any casual reader understands that it's very subjective opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Anyway, if you got problems in battle with Byzantine and Catholic “tanks” etc. Just make a post in the “Battle & tactics”-thread and I or anybody else with enough experience in reduxed combat can help you out there - as it is still very possible to defeat them with Muslim forces - and outside the desert too…
    It's not about me. It's about the factions balance for the AI. I can win with any faction but not the AI. When I play as one of the western european factions, muslim armies are easy to beat even when I'm outnumbered 10:1. Their armies don't contain any really dangerous unit. Maybe it's because of my playstyle - my armies are missile heavy so lightly armored muslims are not a threat for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Camel Archers are not “totally worthless”; if that had been true they would not be able to do anything worthwhile in battle – that is not true. Revise your tactics and get more experience and you will realize that. Camels are slower then horses (as usual) and thus skirmishing on infantry is more viable tactic...
    My fault. "Totally worthless" was a bad choice of words. I meant "worthless comparing to other units". Even skirmishing with fast horse archer unit is risky when enemy army contains any cavalry units. In this case camels get caught by cavalry and finished by any other unit. Situations when enemy army doesn't have any cavalry units are very rare. Skirmishing with slow camels is a waste of a unit slot. Of course, it's my personal opinion.

    Anyway, I'm going to gather some more experience this weekend so I hope my next impressions will be much more... balanced. Thanks for your efforts. Your mod is totally different from all others and it's very refreshing.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  4. #4

    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Regarding adding new units, is there any difference if I put them into rows labeled "blank" as opposed to "Additional xx" ?

    Btw id really like if someone could help me with a link for a bif reader, all the links here go to the paint shop pro download...

    Also, has anyone ever even tried making completely new unit textures or is that impossible for this game besides adding new shields/weapons to existing unit textures or slightly modifying or recoloring the base textures for units (the ones in LBM format)?

    I have a strong desire to add a unit based on snapshots of a 3d model from different angles / movements and rescaling and cleaning up the images and of course getting the right coordinates and stuff for the individual frames when assembling the LBM file. Anyone ever try this, im just curious how feasible that would be?

  5. #5
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Quote Originally Posted by berserkr View Post
    Regarding adding new units, is there any difference if I put them into rows labeled "blank" as opposed to "Additional xx" ?
    I don't know if blanks are used for something but generally - no difference. One unit - One row. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by berserkr View Post
    Btw id really like if someone could help me with a link for a bif reader, all the links here go to the paint shop pro download...
    This package contains bif reader and some other useful stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by berserkr View Post
    Also, has anyone ever even tried making completely new unit textures or is that impossible for this game besides adding new shields/weapons to existing unit textures or slightly modifying or recoloring the base textures for units (the ones in LBM format)?
    Check e.g. Hellenic, Napoleonic, Pike & Musket mods. They contain a lot of new units so yes - it's possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by berserkr View Post
    I have a strong desire to add a unit based on snapshots of a 3d model from different angles / movements and rescaling and cleaning up the images and of course getting the right coordinates and stuff for the individual frames when assembling the LBM file. Anyone ever try this, im just curious how feasible that would be?
    Repository is the place where you should look for. There are 2-3 sticked treads that contain useful information how to do this.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  6. #6

    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Hello berserkr,

    I have not much to add to Staz remarks on the matter but I suggest that you try to stay away from the “blanks” as much as possible as these are slots that might be used in the future versions by me. If that don’t matter somehow, then by all means use those too – they are fully functional.

    - A

  7. #7

    Default Re: MTW-Redux Beta Released!

    Ok Staz, this post is for you….


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    As I wrote at the start of my post - it was my first impression so I think any casual reader understands that it's very subjective opinion.
    Well, let us hope that you are right. Anyway, I can explain in full detail as for why I have problems with it in the first place. For details, see spoiler….

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    First of all, let me outline some of the vital the differences between “personal claims” and “general claims”. The reasons for it will become clear eventually. So…

    A strictly personal opinion or claim holds certain safeguards and privileges as it by definition only concerns and is representative for the person who expressed that opinion/claim – thus tradition would have us greet it with leniency as it usually does not concern the rest of us anyway. The usual way to signify that it is in fact a personal claim/opinion is to insert the “for me”-clause or similar within the claim. That way there is no question about what it is and thus it will be, and can be, expected to be treated accordingly…

    Now, a public and general claim aims to be universal and valid at a collective level – as in elevated above and beyond the person that makes the claim – it is essentially declared to concern all of us somehow. Due to that very circumstance the terms and rules for such claims are radically different then personal ones - and all safeguards and privileges are long gone with it. We enter the realm of facts, basis, credibility and relevance - as these are the only stuff that matter at this level – while we also leave all the personal and subjective stuff behind us it is irrelevant in a universal context. The reason for that practice is obvious; the subjective and personal simply fails to concern or be valid for us all - and it is not truly dependent on facts. At a collective level, facts is the only thing we can truly deal with as these remain valid for all of us regardless what we may personally think of them. They just are, no matter our opinions of them.

    If the facts are unknown to us, we then rely on basis, relevance and credibility to provide strength to our claim. The more the better. Now, tradition has it that all public and general claims are allowed to be tested and examined to determine if they are actually valid or not - as declared. This is called scrutiny, and anybody is within their full rights to exercise scrutiny upon any public claim anywhere, and whenever they feel like it. As a result, the only way public claims can hope to survive somehow are to rely on facts, basis and credibility – and plenty of it to support and strengthen the claim.

    All claims that have these things, and in good order, are usually referred to as “serious” - while claims that somehow is lacking in such regards are called “unserious”. “Serious” essentially means a credible and valid claim, while “unserious” essentially means a faulty and defect claim – usually of too poor quality to be taken into any serious consideration by the collective hence the term “unserious”. Both categories must be explained and warranted when declared as either one (serious/unserious) - that is the global tradition. Tradition also has it that all claims of explicit sub-standard quality should be ignored on sight. The textbook example of that is a claim without any basis to support it somehow.


    With those distinctions cleared up….

    So why do I have problems with your supposed “impressions” in the first place? First of all, there are no clear distinctions between what are general claims and what are personal claims within these supposed “impressions” of yours. For me that is not acceptable due to the scale of your claims.

    They may be presented as mere personal impressions but in reality they are essentially formulated as public and general claims. How so? For starters, they essentially lack the vital “for me” clause and add to that a frequent categorical style in within these claims. That circumstance further suggests it to have universal intentions rather then limited personal ones. Hence the only rational interpretation and explanation is that they are not personal claims as they are clearly not devised and functional as such. The only alternative left is that of public and general claims. So, it is like declaring a train to be an airplane essentially – it simply does not add up. Thus misinterpretations are very possible as a result as their status as either personal or public claims is not truly traceable, if it were then I would not be writing this, now would I?

    Furthermore, the stuff is far too bold and categorical to actually comply with any standard concepts of “impressions” - as defined in dictionaries. For instance, “One Nubian Slayer does not count”. That doesn’t leave much room for doubt as it is clearly not formulated accordingly to what it is claimed to be – an impression. It is a declaration, and a universal declaration at that - as it is categorical. It simply leaves no room for alternatives and/or exceptions and it is nowhere near “I don’t think one Nubian slayer should count” - which could have been a functional personal impression (not a very good one but still a possible one).

    Now, regardless what these impressions are actually interpreted or intended as, they still have chronic problems with lacking basis all the same - as there virtually are none. Much of it is inaccurate, flawed (or even false or plain irrelevant at times). In essence, it simply creates unnecessary problems and promotes flawed information in the process. That is counterproductive and misleading to the casual reader.

    I do have an obligation to ensure that people who come here is not provided with flawed and false information, as I am responsible for this place. The casual reader must be able to rely and trust this place - and above all on the information they can find here as this is indeed a public space, not a personal one. If they can not do that – then their motive to come here is gone (and thus the whole point of this forum is also gone). That is exactly why I don’t want to see any such stuff here in the first place as it is by definition counterproductive here.

    So, let us leave it at that as long as you don’t do this stuff again.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    It's not about me. It's about the factions balance for the AI. I can win with any faction but not the AI. When I play as one of the western european factions, muslim armies are easy to beat even when I'm outnumbered 10:1.
    Alright, it is about “factions balance for the AI”… Regardless, solid and credible basis first, remarkable claims later, alright? Otherwise, dismissed as unserious, due to lacking and untraceable basis…

    And then there is the question of proper experience once again. You don’t have enough to attempt such bold conclusions in the first place and it would be better if you could recognize that willingly, rather then having me to remind you of the fact in public. If only to give your own credibility a break.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Their armies don't contain any really dangerous unit.
    Not true…. I’ll explain it shortly, but first, if you are going to forward supposed criticism - then at least do it right and proper. As in check your actual supposed grounds for the criticism if that is solid enough to really forward criticism in the first place and this before you actually do forward it here. That way the rest of us get a sporting chance to take it seriously and the criticism might actually end up as productive and worthwhile here. As long as you don’t – it will be nothing of that and essentially reduced to merely an expression that, in this case you, somehow need/want to pass judgment on something even at the price of you don’t having any valid grounds to justify it. This is hardly a flattering prospect for you and in the process it robs me of all possibilities to stay friendly here for long….

    Declaring stuff in public is one thing, backing it up with solid and credible basis to support it all is quite another. This is the part were you fail and this is also why I can’t take that (or anything like it) seriously simply because it has no proper and credible basis to it. It boils down to this; you will have to start treating Redux seriously - so I can start treating your posts about it seriously. It is that simple really. That said…

    Now, all I have to do to dismiss your claim is to do a bunch of solo battles (no upgrades and bonuses, veteran-level, default size, everything enabled short of camera and clock) - 1 on 1 to prove it wrong. The results and reality found there is obviously in direct conflict with your claim as the Muslims can indeed win against virtually all units the Catholics can muster – the only possible candidate that I could find as an exception to this rule are the royal spearmen formations as Muslims have no true counter to that in 1 on 1 match-ups at least. If you were actually right in your claim, none of that would be possible somehow – it would be impossible. As it clearly is very possible, your claim can not be true as a result. It may be of interest here to also point out that on general terms all units fare better in combat if they are under player supervision then under the control of the AI.

    For instance, Muslim heavy cavalry can essentially triumph over everything the Catholic have in cavalry, archers and sword infantry. The only thing that will usually spell doom for them in battle are Feudal knights – however these can be countered by using Saracen/Moorish Infantry units instead and they might very well win in that scenario. And, this is a unit that the Muslim-AI builds in abundance so it is hardly a problem. Muslim regular archers are also able to defeat many Catholic troops in 1 on 1 match-up’s and the list goes on and on and on.… That is the reality here, check it out first hand and find out for yourselves folks. Use RXB1001 files, I doubt it will deviate much…


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    My fault. "Totally worthless" was a bad choice of words. I meant "worthless comparing to other units".
    I agree, it was a poor choice of words and overall phrasing – thus it could be worthwhile for you to be more careful and humble with phrasing and words in the future. Now, personally I would in that case clearly state the context what it was supposedly all about (“Redux, camel archers and possible problems”) and what is my perspective was there (“something is problematic with the camel archers”) and then confine myself to that stipulated context (“camel archers appear to have problems, due to X, due to Y, due to Z etc. etc. and this despite potential factors like A, or B etc. etc.”). I would also provide examples and/or identify such comparative units that I had in mind (at least some, like “Slavic Horse Archers”, “Russian Boyars” etc. etc.) - so people can get a sporting chance to see and examine for themselves what I mean and how I reason. Solid grounds, traceable relevancy and valid perspective are everything to any serious claim – without all that, it is nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Even skirmishing with fast horse archer unit is risky when enemy army contains any cavalry units. In this case camels get caught by cavalry and finished by any other unit.
    Again, not true…. All I have to do to prove that is to start 10 solo-battles (same settings as before) 1 on 1 camel archers vs. feudal cavalry and essentially charge head on – then I got all I need to dismiss it…


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Situations when enemy army doesn't have any cavalry units are very rare.
    More of the same… I’ll have to refute this claim as well as I have seen just that numerous times, over multiple campaigns (I can post up pics if need be. I would also say that this is even more common in MTW actually). I have even been on the receiving end as well – and I can assure you that all my curses are genuine when it happens. It is not always so that we have the luxury to have a fully functional and equipped army. Sometimes we are forced to make due with what we got. A lot of good infantry has died that way, before I manage to drive the blasted camel archers (for instance) off the map or kill them (this has usually been outside the desert btw).


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Skirmishing with slow camels is a waste of a unit slot. Of course, it's my personal opinion.
    Even if I personally agree with that, it still does not necessarily make it so for all others, now does it? I wish you could phrase it for what it is then… As in; “Personally I think that skirmishing with the slower camels is a waste of a valuable unit slot” or something like it. See the difference there? One is phrased like a categorical general claim; the other is merely a voiced personal opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Anyway, I'm going to gather some more experience this weekend so I hope my next impressions will be much more... balanced. Thanks for your efforts. Your mod is totally different from all others and it's very refreshing.
    Before you do post up any further impressions here, do consider all things that I have written in this post and adjust accordingly. Otherwise there will only be more problems and difficulties were there need not be any – and how is that somehow desirable?

    Furthermore, in this massive post I have been focusing more on how a matter is - or should have been - treated and presented rather then the actual matters at hand. That is not how it should be here. I simply can not sit here and worry about attitude and phrasing when I should be focusing on the actual matter at hand directly. So, hopefully this post will be the last of its kind and we can move on (and leave all such problems behind us)…


    - A

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