Netherworld III: Final Judgment [Concluded]

[Andres]

1)

Lastly, its a guilty pleasure of mine to confuse players, particularly pro-town networks. Make sure to take care of who you trust.

2) If this game is going to be decided by some pro-town network that discusses things in private and decides the game by voting in block, then it will be very boring for those not included in the pro-town network.

3) Pro-town networks haven't helped town much in previous games.

4) Pro-town networks get infiltrated all the time.

5) Pro-town network = BORING.

Double A is more interesting.

[Diamondeye]

This post rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed. Vote: AA

[TheLastDays]

I had contact with ATPG in the Midgard game where you were my champion. ATPG revealed early to me that he thought one of the champions would be Jotun, based on his game mechanics knowledge and hosting knowledge. I believed him and for most of the time saw you as the scummiest, you were very close to be voted off on several occasions.
As to why I asked for your IM this game it was for 2 reasons.

What you say regarding Midgard: Possible, since you were town there I'll believe that but after I turned up as town there you should have gotten the hint that this is just how I play.

1. I wanted to pressure you because I think you're behaving oddly.

2. I was bored, ATPG isn't online much at all these days which leaves only Renata I talk to quite frequently. I need more stimulus if I'm to play mafia. Also I enjoy speaking german from time to time.

Ever played Civilization V? When you massed your army near an opponent's border you'd get an inquiry from them, asking if you were about to attack. Most often I hit "No, my soldiers are just passing through the area." The answer to that was: "A likely story."

That's how I feel with this.

It's possible but probably it's a lie because you asked for my IM before I ever said much in the game and you also only learned that I am from Austria when I gave you my messenger handle.

This I feel is almost the same point, so I'll address them together.
GE "won" that day's lynch by about... 13 votes? A joke vote is as good as anything, regardless of the reason I give it's still a vote and pressure is being applied if it's anywhere close to the lead.

This is not the same point and you only addressed point 3! Answer number 2) please!

As Renata pointed out to me privately yesterday; I started my first game on the .Org as a doubtless townie (or genious mafia, but that wasn't the case) and have only grown to be more scummy. I don't know if it's my playstyle that has changed or if it's her perception of my playstyle but to this day I have never been mafia, so you can't really say it's my Modus Operandi.

A likely story.

I do not believe that you are town, and if you are you have put yourself at some serious disadvantage from our conversation yesterday.

1. You told me that I shouldn't trust anyone else unless I trust you. That's saying I shouldn't network at all and if I do I should only do it with you, atleast start with you. Why are you so concerned that I don't talk to other people?

2. You were reluctant to answer questions about what you think of other people.

3. You don't trust Yaropolk, even though he is the most confirmed townie right now.

Now this is probably the worst part of your argument because you are blatantly lieing and twisting my words here. I see no reason for you to do that if you are town so I have to assume that my suspicion of you is correct and you are scum.

1. I have never discouraged you of networking or talking to other people not in the slightest. And I have explicitly told you to not trust me, telling you that your job, as a townie, is to not trust people.

2. I was reluctant because I am suspecting you to be scum.

3. I never specifically stated I don't trust Yaropolk. What I recall is telling you that I try to not trust anyone to the point where I can't suspect them anymore.

Nope. I don't understand why you would even take the risk of telling her, even though she did not reveal that information to me. I'm curious as to why you did it though.

Because at that point I wasn't convinced of you being scum and I tried to figure out if I should even bother accusing you. That's why I sought her counsel.

This is the first real pressure you're taking in this game and you're making a case on the guy who's accusing you, serious OMGUS going on at the same time you're just putting yourself in a deeper hole.

Wrong. There was much more heat on me on D1 when I defended GE. Actually, as scum, why would I ever do that?

Also you haven't even accused me. Two votes on me. One says: "Hello." The other says "You had enough time to think".
Splendid case, where can I learn to make these? No, you are the one attacking the one who accuses you.

You are all mafia for talking privately in the shadows! XD

That's an interesting point. Can you elaborate on that? Wait... I hear you've been lynched? Then I decline

[thefluffyone93]

GAH.....
WALLS OF TEXTS...EVERYWHERE...

[Believer]

Ever played Civilization V? When you massed your army near an opponent's border you'd get an inquiry from them, asking if you were about to attack. Most often I hit "No, my soldiers are just passing through the area." The answer to that was: "A likely story."

That's how I feel with this.

I have not played that game and I don't understand your analogy.

It's possible but probably it's a lie because you asked for my IM before I ever said much in the game and you also only learned that I am from Austria when I gave you my messenger handle.

Your IM is in your profile, I know the country code for Austria but I always ask people's permission first. Ask any of Renata/ATPG/Romanic/GE if I am polite in that regard or not.

This is not the same point and you only addressed point 3! Answer number 2) please!
-----------------------------

2) Your vote on Arjos on D1.



At this point, iirc, Arjos was in the lead by 2 and you came in placing your vote. I was not in real danger anymore until maybe the end of the round where there were a few votes bein placed on me again but at the point of your vote you could not know this would happen. Yet you made an effort, privately, to point out to me that you saved me and expected me to make good use of it.

I don't see a question here to be honest. You're stating things that have happened without any real question. If you want reason I already gave it in my vote on him. If you want reason as to why I told you I saved you was because I talk, alot. Yet again you should ask Renata/Romanic/ATPG/GE to confirm this. That was an attempt to mend fences between us since I no longer see a reason for us to not like eachother. I recall I used smilies in the message, so it can't have been that serious.

Now this is probably the worst part of your argument because you are blatantly lieing and twisting my words here. I see no reason for you to do that if you are town so I have to assume that my suspicion of you is correct and you are scum.

1. I have never discouraged you of networking or talking to other people not in the slightest. And I have explicitly told you to not trust me, telling you that your job, as a townie, is to not trust people.

2. I was reluctant because I am suspecting you to be scum.

3. I never specifically stated I don't trust Yaropolk. What I recall is telling you that I try to not trust anyone to the point where I can't suspect them anymore.

1. Now it is you who is lying.
I can't quote our PM conversation because this is against the rules, so I can't actually prove that I am telling the truth. But in very broad terms you told me to not trust anyone unless I trusted you. You can't get away from this, that is what you said. That contradicts town networking and forces me, in your eyes, to believe you before I can network with anyone else.

2. So you wouldn't answer to pressure? That's just scummy. What would I gain if I was scum and then getting your opinion on Yaropolk?

3. I asked if you trusted Yaropolk and you told me you don't trust anyone. You never mentioned anything about suspecting them.

Also you haven't even accused me. Two votes on me. One says: "Hello." The other says "You had enough time to think".
Splendid case, where can I learn to make these? No, you are the one attacking the one who accuses you.

This is wrong on several levels, and I'll tell you why.
I told you I would vote for you yesterday, that makes your case on me OMGUS since you didn't suspect me earlier.
I have already told you my reasons for wanting you dead, I made it very clear in private and it's very clear in the thread by now aswell.

1. You do not want me networking, why would you not want that?

2. You overreact to very little pressure and seem very tense.

3. You were paranoid in conversations with Renata yesterday, she told me this.

[Riedquat]

2. You overreact to very little pressure and seem very tense.

Dude, you must be kidding us!

You started the text-walling after a single vote on you!

[Believer]

Dude, you must be kidding us!

You started the text-walling after a single vote on you!

I'm making a case and he's defending, it has nothing to do with his vote on me or not.

[TheLastDays]

You were not making a case, my friend. And I don't get what you're talking about from our conversation. I never told you to not trust anyone unless you trust me. Quite the contrary. I said it's fine if you don't trust me as long as you don't trust anyone else either.

Yes, I even mentioned myself to Renata that I might be getting paranoid because your talks to me made me feel like you were "flattering" me and trying to pull me to your side and yesterday I wasn't sure if that wasn't paranoia. Now, after you come out with lies and twists of what I said I'm not sure it's being paranoid.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Thank God I am still alive !

[Believer]

I never told you to not trust anyone unless you trust me. Quite the contrary. I said it's fine if you don't trust me as long as you don't trust anyone else either.

This is the exact same thing and you admit to it.

[Believer]

I will be away for the evening eating cancer, so have fun people. Make the right choice.

Edit: I just saw that the deadline is at 04:00 AM my time, I should be able to make an appearance then.

[Renata]

Now this is probably the worst part of your argument because you are blatantly lieing and twisting my words here. I see no reason for you to do that if you are town so I have to assume that my suspicion of you is correct and you are scum.

I believe Believer here, that his perception at least is honest. He was telling me about all of this yesterday, before he ever went public with it. What he told me is virtually the same words as he used here (except just maybe the Yaropolk bit; i can't quite remember). I believe that you did give him the impression that you meant what he's reported up there. I don't think there's any way he's lying about it outright.

1. I have never discouraged you of networking or talking to other people not in the slightest. And I have explicitly told you to not trust me, telling you that your job, as a townie, is to not trust people.

2. I was reluctant because I am suspecting you to be scum.

3. I never specifically stated I don't trust Yaropolk. What I recall is telling you that I try to not trust anyone to the point where I can't suspect them anymore.

He told me you would not give your opinion on Yaropolk, just looked it up. If what you actually said is something generic along the lines of "well, I don't fully trust anybody obviously", and nothing more, then I agree with Believer that it leans scum, because there's more to say about Yaro than that.

Because at that point I wasn't convinced of you being scum and I tried to figure out if I should even bother accusing you. That's why I sought her counsel.

I think I disagree with Believer on this one. I've been approached inappropriately (hah) by more townies than I can count.

Wrong. There was much more heat on me on D1 when I defended GE. Actually, as scum, why would I ever do that?

Bah, you and everyone stop sayign things like this. It only begs people to think of reasons why you might. In this case: because you know the case against him is bull-spit* and you want to be "right".

Also you haven't even accused me. Two votes on me. One says: "Hello." The other says "You had enough time to think".
Splendid case, where can I learn to make these? No, you are the one attacking the one who accuses you.

In public yes, though he's been on your case in private for days.



*The case was indeed bull-spit to all appearances (Zack), but that doesn't mean it was wrong.


(Looking ahead to Believer's response: I said "paranoid" about TLD? I don't remember that. In what context? ETA: Never mind, TLD provided it himself. I still don't remember.)

[TheLastDays]

This is the exact same thing and you admit to it.

This is not the exact same thing.
The first means: Trust me and then you can trust others.
The second one means: Don't trust me. And don't trust anyone else.

[Renata]

Erm.

Sorry, Believer, but if that's what TLD said it's not scummy per se, it just doesn't mean much of anything.

[TheLastDays]

I believe Believer here, that his perception at least is honest. He was telling me about all of this yesterday, before he ever went public with it. What he told me is virtually the same words as he used here (except just maybe the Yaropolk bit; i can't quite remember). I believe that you did give him the impression that you meant what he's reported up there. I don't think there's any way he's lying about it outright.

It certainly looks like lying from my perspective but I've been wrong about Believer before and that's part of the reason why I contacted you yesterday.

He told me you would not give your opinion on Yaropolk, just looked it up. If what you actually said is something generic along the lines of "well, I don't fully trust anybody obviously", and nothing more, then I agree with Believer that it leans scum, because there's more to say about Yaro than that.

Of course there is more to say but at that point I was already suspecting him and I'm not discussing a lot of my views with people that are on my suspect list.

Bah, you and everyone stop sayign things like this. It only begs people to think of reasons why you might. In this case: because you know the case against him is bull-spit* and you want to be "right".

Yeah I know it's a stupid comment but then again my statement was more about the fact that there was much more pressure on me on Day 1 than right now.

(Looking ahead to Believer's response: I said "paranoid" about TLD? I don't remember that. In what context? ETA: Never mind, TLD provided it himself. I still don't remember.)

I don't know what you told Believer about our conversation other than what he claimed in here but I told you that I was afraid that my suspicion towards him might come from paranoia.

I'm more and more getting the feeling that this whole case revolves around misunderstandings between me and Believer and I'll go ahead and unvote. There, I just did something that I myself would call out as scummy, only that I know I'm not scum.

[Renata]

vote: glyphz

Primarily for this:

There's probably a 3 vote lead bet G_E & the next canditate, & at least 10 nonvoters.

Vote: God_Emperor for safe measure...

It looks fake. None of the other bandwagons were remotely serious as "threats" to GE getting lynched, so why the pose? During the night glyphz says GE needs to be lynched if no claim, yet there was a claim, and glyphz didn't comment on it at all, just this fake looking vote.

On day one he put a jokey bandwagon vote on TLD (4th voter), which significance probably depends on what you thnk of GE and TLD.

[Earthling]

3. You don't trust Yaropolk, even though he is the most confirmed townie right now.

True, but one point unrelated to you/TLD so much but something for the town to discuss - if that one lass is recruiting folks for a cult we have to watch out for Yaropolk easily being a good recruiting opportunity in the future. Otherwise things are still looking good and I don't see the huge complaints about a bit of networking - especially neutral guys like Axman if he is neutral, if you have your own crazy goals but don't want to be on the town's bad side come talk and cooperate now or you know we're not likely to trust you later.

One thing I don't see is see how TLD as a basic townie could presume to ask Yaropolk to have people use their abilities as he wants (TLD said he went to Yaropolk to suggest scan ideas) yet at the same time go on in private about not trusting Yaropolk. That's about all I can get out of Believer/TLD's argument that's new as I had no private contact to confirm what they were saying about each other.

Anyway, I still think GE was a flat-out mafioso and vote: The Last Days is a good call.

[Chaotix]

Not liking the fact that this round is less than 24 hours. Leaves me only an hour to seriously read the thread after I get home.

Placeholder vote.

Vote: Fluffy

[Yaropolk]

My completely uninformed $0.02 - no results or anything behind this.

I don't think Mafia would reach their neck out contacting people via PM left and right. TLD and Believer have posted more than enough on here to analyze in later rounds if I'm wrong.

I'm supsicious of ATPG because he is usually hyperactive as a townie and right now he's mum. Renata's suspicion on glyphz is a possibiliy too.

I will vote: ATPG because he can be sly as a fox if he's on the wrong side.

[Renata]

Of course there is more to say but at that point I was already suspecting him and I'm not discussing a lot of my views with people that are on my suspect list.

Yaro's situation is too public for this to apply. I see no reason you couldn't have given your feelings. You've claimed vanilla town; it's not you've claimed power role to him and feel like you might have some special knowledge to betray, or something.

[Renata]

BTW my current wild speculation about Axe guy is he's a neutral party who can only kill a specific player or players.

I'm tired of cults and hope that was something different up there.

[TheLastDays]

I already told Renata in private that I get weird vibes from ATPG in this game and pressure on him is very good imo. He has to start talking.

glyphz is a possibility.

I'm going to follow up on something I wanted to pressure during the GE wagon though. Earthling your posts seem weird to me this game.
You went for the case on GE D1 and, even though your posts are often annoying, usually you know better than that.

vote: Earthling

[TheLastDays]

Yaro's situation is too public for this to apply. I see no reason you couldn't have given your feelings. You've claimed vanilla town; it's not you've claimed power role to him and feel like you might have some special knowledge to betray, or something.

I tend to be more careful than necessary obviously. Plus, tbh, I was a bit pissed by the way Believer was behaving to me and that doesn't really make me want to talk about anything.

[Earthling]

I also think it's either that or the crazy guess is an exceptionally clever sort of scan, making his "results" public each time rather than getting them just for himself. That doesn't sit as well with him skipping a night though but if he never manages a kill at all we'll see.

I'm tired of such females seducing only males and wish that was something different up there.

By the way I do hope you're not a neutral here. I'm rather doubting you're mafia already and once again you're contributing excellent points that help the town but as a third party that could be just enough to get our trust too and help you along. So I'll keep an eye out on that. I would agree with your observation on glyphz being lazy in bandwagonning except since I think his votes ended up on scum I can't really fault that right now.

[dcmort93]

vote: glyphz

Primarily for this:


It looks fake. None of the other bandwagons were remotely serious as "threats" to GE getting lynched, so why the pose? During the night glyphz says GE needs to be lynched if no claim, yet there was a claim, and glyphz didn't comment on it at all, just this fake looking vote.

On day one he put a jokey bandwagon vote on TLD (4th voter), which significance probably depends on what you thnk of GE and TLD.

I can't help but agree with Renata on this so Vote glyphz

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, anyone want to sum up the whole TLD/Believer argument for me? Way too much text for me to read right now.

[Romanic]

3 TheLastDays (DIY, Believer, Earthling)
3 Double A (Andres, Capt Blackadder, DE)
2 glyphz (Renata, dcmort)
1 Fluffy (Chaotix)
1 ATPG (Yaropolk)
1 Earthling (TLD)
---
22 not voting (everyone else)

[Earthling]

Well, firstly it's worth summarizing that TLD is a good suspect on his own for defending GE, the first day's bandwagon, and general scummy comments. Part of it is that Believer, like others, has a case against him for this and Believer did say he was suspicious of TLD before.

As for the rest, it seems to me it's arguing he said-she said about whatever they discussed in private.

Believer claims he voiced suspicions about TLD to other people. TLD supposedly had been telling people in private to "trust nobody." TLD claims Believer was trying to butter him up and get him to follow his votes and now decided to betray him. Some of the other parties supposedly involved weighed in, about what either TLD or Believer was saying.

In the absence of real solid evidence like a scan this seems like a good case for today, though I can't exactly stop people from voting Double A or glyphz instead, at least if we get more people voting the voting record will still be useful in the long run.

[Romanic]

vote: Fluffy

It's a serious vote. Memes are fun but not helpful, and Fluffy choose not to contribute differently so I'm happy to force a claim out of him, or even lynch him.

[johnhughthom]

Vote: glyphz

I believe I have mentioned my penchant for ties on numerous occasions.