Euro Area

[Louis VI the Fat]

Most experts think that it will take less then two weeks for Greece to go bancrupt.It is kind of interesting how during the last couple weeks, both politics and media have just started to get silent and look somewhere else rather then about the whole affair.

Europe is getting fed up with Greece.

Ireland and Portugal are going through very rough times. But they do what is necessary. They deserve our support.

Not Greece. In Greece, Europe is still dealing with the same lying statisticians. The same corrupt, self-serving politicians. They don't want to be bailed out.
Also, ever since day one of its membership, Greece has played the same game of milking Europe for what it's worth. They have come to think, based on actual experience, that the patience and stupidity of Europe is infinite. Add in the costs of a Greek bankryptcy for Europe, and it is clear why the Greeks think they can use this crisis to steal even more money from Europe than before.


Autists.

There is no electoral support anywhere for support for Greeks. It is against any electoral instinct that politicians throughout Europe are still trying to do the responsible thing and keep Greece - an entire European country - afloat. This sense of responsibility is not infinite, there comes a time when one realises that the last effort has been made. There is nobody in Greece to work with. The Greeks have neither the will, nor even the capacity to change their ways. (Capable civil servants, non-politicised semi-governmental agencies, at least some rationally functioning non-corrupt segments of state)

[Fragony]

But we aren't really helping out Greece are we, we are bailing out the banks, again. Feel sorry for the ordinary Greeks as it ain't their fault, they work more hours than us and especially more than you strikehappy Frenchies, they just get the bill. As we do here in the swamp

EUSSR, kill it with fire

[rory_20_uk]

But we aren't really helping out Greece are we, we are bailing out the banks, again. Feel sorry for the ordinary Greeks as it ain't their fault, they work more hours than us and especially more than you strikehappy Frenchies, they just get the bill. As we do here in the swamp

EUSSR, kill it with fire

No, Greeks retire earlier than anyone else in Europe, possibly the world. They get a 90% pension.
They avoid taxes wherever possible
Their elected leaders lied to get into the EU in the first place. Upon entering they went on a massive spending spree, including the Olympics. There was a distinct lack of protest during the good times.

[InsaneApache]

Pater's seen and had enough. He's coming back to blighty in March.

[gaelic cowboy]

Europe is getting fed up with Greece.

Ireland and Portugal are going through very rough times. But they do what is necessary. They deserve our support.

Not Greece. In Greece, Europe is still dealing with the same lying statisticians. The same corrupt, self-serving politicians. They don't want to be bailed out.
Also, ever since day one of its membership, Greece has played the same game of milking Europe for what it's worth. They have come to think, based on actual experience, that the patience and stupidity of Europe is infinite. Add in the costs of a Greek bankryptcy for Europe, and it is clear why the Greeks think they can use this crisis to steal even more money from Europe than before.


Autists.

There is no electoral support anywhere for support for Greeks. It is against any electoral instinct that politicians throughout Europe are still trying to do the responsible thing and keep Greece - an entire European country - afloat. This sense of responsibility is not infinite, there comes a time when one realises that the last effort has been made. There is nobody in Greece to work with. The Greeks have neither the will, nor even the capacity to change their ways. (Capable civil servants, non-politicised semi-governmental agencies, at least some rationally functioning non-corrupt segments of state)

To be honest you have to admire the on them fellas holding the entire EU (and the world) to ransom like they are. I cannot see them paying anything back at all at all, sure Greece only exports about maybe a tenth that Ireland does.

If you took every single non-agricultural export and burned them on the docks in Dublin there would still be about 7-8 billion in agri products to export which is half the total Greek exports.

[phonicsmonkey]

This is a controversial viewpoint but all the anti-Greek rhetoric here and elsewhere ignores the basic economic and political facts of the matter.

Inviting (beseeching!) the Greeks into monetary union in the clear knowledge that their economy was not homogenous with those of the larger European nations like (eg) Germany was a political decision and one which German politicians of the time were falling over themselves to make in the cause of the feted "European project" which was to end all war, grant kittens to every citizen, teach esperanto to everyone etc etc.

The direct economic impact of this was that Greece, its banks and citizens could suddenly borrow money at interest rates substantially lower than was appropriate to their economy. In practical effect, the EU rapidly and dramatically increased the money supply to Greece and kept the fire hydrant on for many years. It is a basic principle of economics that if the money supply is high and the capacity of the economy to absorb this money in productive investment is low, asset bubbles will be created, in this case a gigantic bubble in Greek credit.

Yes, there is a cultural issue around corruption and non-payment of taxes but blaming individual Greeks for this is at best wilfully ignorant and at worst politically-motivated fabrication. It is a failure of governments and political leadership across Europe (including, of course, in Greece) that is to blame for the current issues in Greece and elsewhere.

As a rather more controversial addendum I would like to suggest it is unreasonable for Germans to be self-righteous about the issue of bailing out Greece when in effect Germany itself was bailed out after the Second World War when its war debts were forgiven by the victorious allies. This freed up the German economy to restructure and invest for the future, the fruits of which have been enjoyed for the past couple of decades. Compare the German situation with that of the UK, whose war debts were certainly not forgiven, resulting in a loss of economic stature and global influence on a grand scale.

[Papewaio]

So USA had there zero doc home loans and the EU Greece.

These banks that are getting government welfare... Are their execs and senior staff still getting bonuses?

[phonicsmonkey]

These banks that are getting government welfare... Are their execs and senior staff still getting bonuses?

Of course! because they have to retain their talented staff! (largely the same crew of shysters and morons that got us in this mess to begin with)

[InsaneApache]

Simon Jenkins 'gets it' in todays Gruniad...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ty-debt-crisis

[rory_20_uk]

Of course! because they have to retain their talented staff! (largely the same crew of shysters and morons that got us in this mess to begin with)

I really, really hope that a load of their stock options which were worth millions are now practically worthless.

[gaelic cowboy]

So USA had there zero doc home loans and the EU Greece.

These banks that are getting government welfare... Are their execs and senior staff still getting bonuses?

yes usually they are unfortunately, the claim is because there employment contracts cannot be reneged on.

Thats what they claiimed in Ireland and I'm sure the same waffle is spouted elsewhere.

[rory_20_uk]

yes usually they are unfortunately the claimm is because employment contracts cannot hardly be reneged on.

Thats what they claiimed in Ireland and I'm sure the same waffle is spouted elsewhere.

Interesting...

If the companies were forced into "pre-packaged" bankruptcy, all contracts can be reviewed / broken. Might have been a better option.

[phonicsmonkey]

The only time bonuses are contractually provided for is when you poach someone from another bank at a point of time in between bonus periods when you might pay them out for the bonus they believe they have accrued at their current employer and will "lose" by jumping ship. Also CEOs tend to have contracted bonuses (because in most cases they also chair the compensation committee!)

The over-riding reason why bonuses are being paid at the banks that have received government funds is that a) the governments did not give themselves any rights over determining compensation and b) the banks are generating huge profits from trading and are afraid they will lose their best people to competitors if they do not 'keep up with the Joneses'.

To a large extent this is true - most investment banking employees have close to zero loyalty to their employer who they recognise as a soulless money-making machine which will fire them as soon as they stop making money. They are, on the whole, right about that.

[gaelic cowboy]

Interesting...

If the companies were forced into "pre-packaged" bankruptcy, all contracts can be reviewed / broken. Might have been a better option.

Yes if they were put into examinership or recievership, not if there bailed out or brought into state ownership which is what happened.

[Furunculus]

so which part of greece should we partition for the next 45 years?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Europe is getting fed up with Greece.

Ireland and Portugal are going through very rough times. But they do what is necessary. They deserve our support.

Not Greece. In Greece, Europe is still dealing with the same lying statisticians. The same corrupt, self-serving politicians. They don't want to be bailed out.
Also, ever since day one of its membership, Greece has played the same game of milking Europe for what it's worth. They have come to think, based on actual experience, that the patience and stupidity of Europe is infinite. Add in the costs of a Greek bankryptcy for Europe, and it is clear why the Greeks think they can use this crisis to steal even more money from Europe than before.


Autists.

There is no electoral support anywhere for support for Greeks. It is against any electoral instinct that politicians throughout Europe are still trying to do the responsible thing and keep Greece - an entire European country - afloat. This sense of responsibility is not infinite, there comes a time when one realises that the last effort has been made. There is nobody in Greece to work with. The Greeks have neither the will, nor even the capacity to change their ways. (Capable civil servants, non-politicised semi-governmental agencies, at least some rationally functioning non-corrupt segments of state)

You are correct about the lack of electoral support, but this has been true for some time.

Question: If the Greeks had been given a referendum on EMU would they still have the Drachma? I'd say that bet was, at worst, even money.

To be more blunt, if EU integration had proceeded via plebicite rather than Political Conference, would we be in this mess?

As to the Greeks being corrupt, with the Spanish overfishing everyone's waters, the French and Italians leaching the CAP for every drop of Blood and the English laundering the money that passes through the EU how could the Greeks see it as anything other than a racket to be milked?