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Thread: Murders in France
Originally Posted by Hax:
You misunderstand me; what I meant to say that the implementation of shari‘a law is not the only aspect of an Islamic state.
I think you really have to define what you mean with Islamist of Islamic here. It gets really murky.
I'm not sure I get what you're driving at. What is the practical difference between an islamic and islamist state?You misunderstand me; what I meant to say that the implementation of shari‘a law is not the only aspect of an Islamic state.
I think you really have to define what you mean with Islamist of Islamic here. It gets really murky.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
And yes, a country can be non-secular without being a theocracy. The UK, the nordic countries and probably others all have state churches.
Wait a minute, you are putting the UK in the same basket as Algeria? Really? That's just ridiculous.And yes, a country can be non-secular without being a theocracy. The UK, the nordic countries and probably others all have state churches.
No, just pointing out that a state which is not entirely secular is not necessarily a theocracy. I've been to Britain twice in my life and I got the impression that it was a nicer place to live than Algeria (allthough tourist visits may be a poor indication), but Britain is the one which (still) has institutionalised clerical influence on their government.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
No, just pointing out that a state which is not entirely secular is not necessarily a theocracy. I've been to Britain twice in my life and I got the impression that it was a nicer place to live than Algeria (allthough tourist visits may be a poor indication), but Britain is the one which (still) has institutionalised clerical influence on their government.
The clerical influence in the British government is about as prominent as the monarch's role in day-to-day politics (i.e. in name only). You can argue that on paper Britain is not secular, but for all practical purposes it is.No, just pointing out that a state which is not entirely secular is not necessarily a theocracy. I've been to Britain twice in my life and I got the impression that it was a nicer place to live than Algeria (allthough tourist visits may be a poor indication), but Britain is the one which (still) has institutionalised clerical influence on their government.
Originally Posted by :
I'm not sure I get what you're driving at. What is the practical difference between an islamic and islamist state?
Yeah, I'm asking you.I'm not sure I get what you're driving at. What is the practical difference between an islamic and islamist state?
I don't understand how hard it is to tease the nuance out of thing.
In majorily muslim countries Islam tends to be popular (lolz) and, more importantly well organized. It's only logical that any aspiring political party would at bare minimum pay lip service to it.
Islam is much more centeral in those places than christianity is here but nearly every single politican wastes time trying to convince us he is Godly.
Granted I would expect nothing less from someone whose signature is from the greatest pox ever to wear the uniform of the United States army
In majorily muslim countries Islam tends to be popular (lolz) and, more importantly well organized. It's only logical that any aspiring political party would at bare minimum pay lip service to it.
Islam is much more centeral in those places than christianity is here but nearly every single politican wastes time trying to convince us he is Godly.
Granted I would expect nothing less from someone whose signature is from the greatest pox ever to wear the uniform of the United States army
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...-777-75-a-week
The influence of those "Lords Spiritual" should not be overstated, but it's there allright. According to the law the monarch and the prime minister of the UK have to be protestants, or at least not catholics. Now all of this is pretty immaterial in daily British life, and it's no theocracy, but that doesn't change the fact that the UK isn't a secular state.
The influence of those "Lords Spiritual" should not be overstated, but it's there allright. According to the law the monarch and the prime minister of the UK have to be protestants, or at least not catholics. Now all of this is pretty immaterial in daily British life, and it's no theocracy, but that doesn't change the fact that the UK isn't a secular state.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
The influence of those "Lords Spiritual" should not be overstated, but it's there allright. According to the law the monarch and the prime minister of the UK have to be protestants, or at least not catholics
Umm... Tony Blair is a Catholic and a very vocal one at that.The influence of those "Lords Spiritual" should not be overstated, but it's there allright. According to the law the monarch and the prime minister of the UK have to be protestants, or at least not catholics
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
Granted I would expect nothing less from someone whose signature is from the greatest pox ever to wear the uniform of the United States army
I think of him as a God's punishment for the betrayers of the Union.Granted I would expect nothing less from someone whose signature is from the greatest pox ever to wear the uniform of the United States army
Originally Posted by Hax:
Yeah, I'm asking you.
Islamist state == blasphemy laws, apostasy laws, houdood, etc...Yeah, I'm asking you.
Islamic State == Islamist State.
Now, there are states with muslim majority that aren't islamist.... well there's one, Turkey, and things might change there soon.
Originally Posted by rvg:
I think of him as a God's punishment for the betrayers of the Union.
My family was building this country while yours was still miried in its own slop, in whatever hellhole south and east of Vienna they decided to crawl out of. I think of him as a God's punishment for the betrayers of the Union.
I have neither the time nor the inclination.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
I have neither the time nor the inclination.
Indeed. I'm gonna ignore trolls like you from now on.I have neither the time nor the inclination.
Originally Posted by rvg:
Indeed. I'm gonna ignore trolls like you from now on.
Indeed. I'm gonna ignore trolls like you from now on.
:'(
Originally Posted by rvg:
Umm... Tony Blair is a Catholic and a very vocal one at that.
Yeah, he became a vocal catholic after he left office.Umm... Tony Blair is a Catholic and a very vocal one at that.
A lot of people were suspicious before that, since his wife was catholic and his children were being raised as such, but while he was the PM he was formally an Anglican.
Originally Posted by rvg:
Umm... Tony Blair is a Catholic and a very vocal one at that.
He converted to Catholicism after he left office not during, some people blathereed about constitutional crisis if he had converted while Prime Minister but it was only ever a fringe. Umm... Tony Blair is a Catholic and a very vocal one at that.
As far as I know technically he doesnt actually pick the Archbishop he is given a list of names and advised the best candidate then he appoints the person so the PM being actually Protestant is uneccessary.
Anyway the PM is only head of government and not Head of State so his/her religion is immaterial, but it is wrong that the Head of States religion is declared to be only allowed to be Anglicanism.
Incidently thats probably why the Catholic Church gets every one to recognise the Holy See and not the Vatican City State the Holy See is the government of the Church which is based in the Vatican. A small diplomatic point but probably important nonetheless.
So rvg, how exactly is the GIA a part of the establishment in Algeria?
Originally Posted by :
Islamist state == blasphemy laws, apostasy laws, houdood, etc...
Islamic State == Islamist State.
Now, there are states with muslim majority that aren't islamist.... well there's one, Turkey, and things might change there soon.
Really? We have blasphemy laws too, in the Netherlands, but I don't think anyone's really aiming at calling the Netherlands a Christian theocracy.Islamist state == blasphemy laws, apostasy laws, houdood, etc...
Islamic State == Islamist State.
Now, there are states with muslim majority that aren't islamist.... well there's one, Turkey, and things might change there soon.
Originally Posted by Hax:
So rvg, how exactly is the GIA a part of the establishment in Algeria?
Algeria passed an amnesty law back in 1999... 85% of GIA people took the opportunity and integrated into the mainstream society. The rest were arrested/eliminated by the government. GIA for all practical purposes does not exist anymore and the bulk of its members are now part of the establishment.So rvg, how exactly is the GIA a part of the establishment in Algeria?
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy:
Anyway the PM is only head of government and not Head of State so his/her religion is immaterial, but it is wrong that the Head of States religion is declared to be only allowed to be Anglicanism.
imho it makes sense since the monarch is also the head of the Church of England. It would be silly for a non-Anglican to be the head of the Anglican Church.Anyway the PM is only head of government and not Head of State so his/her religion is immaterial, but it is wrong that the Head of States religion is declared to be only allowed to be Anglicanism.
You mean they're able to live in Algeria. My father experienced the same thing back in the 1980s, right.
They're not actually part of the government, you know, they don't have to be afraid to be killed for their political opinions. This makes the government Islamist how?
EDIT: And talking about the GIA, there's actually a lot we can talk about concerning government infiltration within terrorist groups in Algeria.
They're not actually part of the government, you know, they don't have to be afraid to be killed for their political opinions. This makes the government Islamist how?
EDIT: And talking about the GIA, there's actually a lot we can talk about concerning government infiltration within terrorist groups in Algeria.
Originally Posted by Hax:
You mean they're able to live in Algeria. My father experienced the same thing back in the 1980s, right.
They're not actually part of the government, you know, they don't have to be afraid to be killed for their political opinions. This makes the government Islamist how?
The government is islamist because many of Algeria's laws are islamist, and the government upholds and enforces those laws.You mean they're able to live in Algeria. My father experienced the same thing back in the 1980s, right.
They're not actually part of the government, you know, they don't have to be afraid to be killed for their political opinions. This makes the government Islamist how?
Originally Posted by Hax:
Really? We have blasphemy laws too, in the Netherlands, but I don't think anyone's really aiming at calling the Netherlands a Christian theocracy.
Number of people convicted under that law: zero.Really? We have blasphemy laws too, in the Netherlands, but I don't think anyone's really aiming at calling the Netherlands a Christian theocracy.
Originally Posted by rvg:
imho it makes sense since the monarch is also the head of the Church of England. It would be silly for a non-Anglican to be the head of the Anglican Church.
Why does the Monarch need to be head of the church anymore???imho it makes sense since the monarch is also the head of the Church of England. It would be silly for a non-Anglican to be the head of the Anglican Church.
They have laws based on shari'a, definitely. If that's the only designation we need to proclaim that a country is Islamist, whatever. Back in 2008 an appeals court overruled a decision made by a lower court that had sentenced six men to a fine of about a thousand dollars each for violating fast during Ramadan. The reason given was that the original sentence was in violation of the Constitution. That's the scary Islamist government and state for you, right there.
But within your very limited conception of what Islam is, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. I mean, within your conception you'd probably designate the Tunisian state as Islamist as well, even though top officials are supporting the rights of gays and lesbians as we speak. Islamist state, people. An Islamist state.
But within your very limited conception of what Islam is, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. I mean, within your conception you'd probably designate the Tunisian state as Islamist as well, even though top officials are supporting the rights of gays and lesbians as we speak. Islamist state, people. An Islamist state.
Hey in Britain there's actually some controversy right now because the government is thinking of temporarily relaxing its laws for enforcing the sabbath during the Olympics.
Originally Posted by Hax:
They have laws based on shari'a, definitely. If that's the only designation we need to proclaim that a country is Islamist, whatever. Back in 2008 an appeals court overruled a decision made by a lower court that had sentenced six men to a fine of about a thousand dollars each for violating fast during Ramadan. The reason given was that the original sentence was in violation of the Constitution. That's the scary Islamist government and state for you, right there.
And therein lies the problem: the sentence was in violation, not the actual conviction They have laws based on shari'a, definitely. If that's the only designation we need to proclaim that a country is Islamist, whatever. Back in 2008 an appeals court overruled a decision made by a lower court that had sentenced six men to a fine of about a thousand dollars each for violating fast during Ramadan. The reason given was that the original sentence was in violation of the Constitution. That's the scary Islamist government and state for you, right there.
Originally Posted by :
But within your very limited conception of what Islam is...
Yeah, go ahead and make your baseless and clueless assumptions.But within your very limited conception of what Islam is...
Originally Posted by :
I mean, within your conception you'd probably designate the Tunisian state as Islamist as well, even though top officials are supporting the rights of gays and lesbians as we speak. Islamist state, people. An Islamist state.
We were talking about Algeria, not its eastern neighbor. Tunisia has its own set of problems.I mean, within your conception you'd probably designate the Tunisian state as Islamist as well, even though top officials are supporting the rights of gays and lesbians as we speak. Islamist state, people. An Islamist state.
Originally Posted by Rhyfhylwyr:
Hey in Britain there's actually some controversy right now because the government is thinking of temporarily relaxing its laws for enforcing the sabbath during the Olympics.
Hey in Britain there's actually some controversy right now because the government is thinking of temporarily relaxing its laws for enforcing the sabbath during the Olympics.
Originally Posted by :
And therein lies the problem: the sentence was in violation, not the actual conviction
My bad. I meant to say conviction. My mistake! Source:And therein lies the problem: the sentence was in violation, not the actual conviction
Originally Posted by U.S. Department of State:
On October 5, a judge found all six guilty and fined them 120,000 dinars each ($1,770). Six days later an appeals court judge overruled the decision, saying that the original sentence violated the constitution, which provides for freedom of belief.
On October 5, a judge found all six guilty and fined them 120,000 dinars each ($1,770). Six days later an appeals court judge overruled the decision, saying that the original sentence violated the constitution, which provides for freedom of belief.
Originally Posted by :
Yeah, go ahead and make your baseless and clueless assumptions.
Fire with fire, eh. I mean, can read Arabic and even though I study Middle-Eastern studies at one of the most respected and oldest universities in the world when it comes to that subject I don't really think that it counts for anything. I mean, I should probably just bow down to your infinite wisdom, because of course, your in-depth personal experience and flawless analysis of the state of the Islamic world in the 20th century can't possibly be argued with. Right?Yeah, go ahead and make your baseless and clueless assumptions.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Fire with fire, eh. I mean, can read Arabic and even though I study Middle-Eastern studies at one of the most respected and oldest universities in the world when it comes to that subject I don't really think that it counts for anything. I mean, I should probably just bow down to your infinite wisdom, because of course, your in-depth personal experience and flawless analysis of the state of the Islamic world in the 20th century can't possibly be argued with. Right?
Talking about my very limited conception of what Islam is makes a lot of presumptions for which you have no basis. I'm not asking you to bow to anything, but if you expect to sway one's opinion, it has to be done with facts, with logic. The fact remains that in Algeria the are still many laws on the books that contravene the very definition of the secular state. Those laws are islamist to the core and unless they are expunged or at the very least the government stops enforcing them, Algeria will remain an islamist state. Not as bad as Arabia, but still very far from the secular Turkish republic.Fire with fire, eh. I mean, can read Arabic and even though I study Middle-Eastern studies at one of the most respected and oldest universities in the world when it comes to that subject I don't really think that it counts for anything. I mean, I should probably just bow down to your infinite wisdom, because of course, your in-depth personal experience and flawless analysis of the state of the Islamic world in the 20th century can't possibly be argued with. Right?
As for your source.... beware of what you link to.
And I quote...
Originally Posted by :
The constitution provides for freedom of belief and opinion, but in practice the government restricted religious freedom. The constitution declares Islam to be the state religion and prohibits institutions from engaging in behavior incompatible with Islamic morality. More than 99 percent of the population is Sunni Muslim. The constitution prohibits non-Muslims from running for the presidency. Non-Muslims may hold other public offices and work within the government; however, human rights observers reported that such workers were not promoted and that some hid their religious affiliation.
In February the government began enforcing Ordinance 06-03, which increased restrictions on non-Muslim worship. The law limits the practice of non-Muslim religions and restricts public assembly for the purpose of worship. The law requires organized religious groups to register with the government, controls the importation of religious texts, increases punishments for individuals who proselytize Muslims, and treats transgressions as criminal rather than civil offenses.
According to reports from church leaders and human rights organizations, the government ordered the closure of 27 churches for alleged noncompliance with the ordinance during the year. The government also pressured domestic pastors, religious converts, and one foreign Catholic priest, accusing some of breaking the law's provisions banning proselytism.
On January 30, a court in Maghnia issued a one-year suspended prison sentence to a foreign Catholic priest for praying with Cameroonian migrants in an unauthorized place of worship. Upon appeal he received a reduced suspended prison sentence of two months and a fine of 20,150 dinars ($297). He filed a new appeal, which was pending at the end of the year.
In February authorities informed Reverend Hugh Johnson, a retired Methodist minister who resided in the country for 45 years, that his residence permit would not be renewed and advised him to leave the country. He was not provided an official reason for the nonrenewal and departed in March. According to press reports, a government official said Johnson was ordered to leave for reasons relevant to the "security of the state."
The law requires religious groups to register their organizations with the government prior to conducting any religious activity. The Catholic Church was the only non-Islamic religious group officially registered to operate in the country. The Protestant, Anglican, and Seventh-day Adventist churches had pending registration requests with the government and reported no government interference in their holding services. Other churches operated without registration, some openly, while others secretly practiced their faith in homes. Some churches, including Methodist and Presbyterian, affiliated their organizations with the Protestant Church of Algeria.
Between February and April, members of a church in Ouadhia said they attempted to apply for registration 12 times. In each case local authorities refused to accept the documents.
Conversion is not illegal under civil law, and apostasy is not a criminal offense; however, the government interprets Shari'a as banning conversion from Islam to another religion. On March 30, authorities charged Habiba Kouider with "practicing a non-Muslim religion without a permit." The prosecutor asked that Kouider be sentenced to three years in prison. Kouider was traveling by bus when police questioned her and found her to be carrying Bibles and other religious materials. At year's end the case remained ongoing.
During the year authorities arrested Christian converts Yousef Ourahmane, Rachid Seghir, Hamid Ramdani, Djammal Dahmani, Jillali Saidi, Abdelhak Rabhi, and Chaaban Baikel for various combinations of proselytizing, blasphemy, and illegally practicing a non-Muslim faith. Courts sentenced each to prison terms and fines. A court acquitted Ourahmane, Seghir, and Ramdani of their charges on October 29. The other cases were pending at the end of the year.
Authorities arrested six residents of the town of Biskra for eating and playing cards during daylight hours of Ramadan. On October 5, a judge found all six guilty and fined them 120,000 dinars each ($1,770). Six days later an appeals court judge overruled the decision, saying that the original sentence violated the constitution, which provides for freedom of belief. In a separate incident, the Algiers appeals court on November 18 reduced the sentence of three years' imprisonment to two months of time served for three men convicted of smoking during Ramadan. Authorities arrested the men September 21 and detained them for the duration of their trial.
To me this sounds like an islamist state.The constitution provides for freedom of belief and opinion, but in practice the government restricted religious freedom. The constitution declares Islam to be the state religion and prohibits institutions from engaging in behavior incompatible with Islamic morality. More than 99 percent of the population is Sunni Muslim. The constitution prohibits non-Muslims from running for the presidency. Non-Muslims may hold other public offices and work within the government; however, human rights observers reported that such workers were not promoted and that some hid their religious affiliation.
In February the government began enforcing Ordinance 06-03, which increased restrictions on non-Muslim worship. The law limits the practice of non-Muslim religions and restricts public assembly for the purpose of worship. The law requires organized religious groups to register with the government, controls the importation of religious texts, increases punishments for individuals who proselytize Muslims, and treats transgressions as criminal rather than civil offenses.
According to reports from church leaders and human rights organizations, the government ordered the closure of 27 churches for alleged noncompliance with the ordinance during the year. The government also pressured domestic pastors, religious converts, and one foreign Catholic priest, accusing some of breaking the law's provisions banning proselytism.
On January 30, a court in Maghnia issued a one-year suspended prison sentence to a foreign Catholic priest for praying with Cameroonian migrants in an unauthorized place of worship. Upon appeal he received a reduced suspended prison sentence of two months and a fine of 20,150 dinars ($297). He filed a new appeal, which was pending at the end of the year.
In February authorities informed Reverend Hugh Johnson, a retired Methodist minister who resided in the country for 45 years, that his residence permit would not be renewed and advised him to leave the country. He was not provided an official reason for the nonrenewal and departed in March. According to press reports, a government official said Johnson was ordered to leave for reasons relevant to the "security of the state."
The law requires religious groups to register their organizations with the government prior to conducting any religious activity. The Catholic Church was the only non-Islamic religious group officially registered to operate in the country. The Protestant, Anglican, and Seventh-day Adventist churches had pending registration requests with the government and reported no government interference in their holding services. Other churches operated without registration, some openly, while others secretly practiced their faith in homes. Some churches, including Methodist and Presbyterian, affiliated their organizations with the Protestant Church of Algeria.
Between February and April, members of a church in Ouadhia said they attempted to apply for registration 12 times. In each case local authorities refused to accept the documents.
Conversion is not illegal under civil law, and apostasy is not a criminal offense; however, the government interprets Shari'a as banning conversion from Islam to another religion. On March 30, authorities charged Habiba Kouider with "practicing a non-Muslim religion without a permit." The prosecutor asked that Kouider be sentenced to three years in prison. Kouider was traveling by bus when police questioned her and found her to be carrying Bibles and other religious materials. At year's end the case remained ongoing.
During the year authorities arrested Christian converts Yousef Ourahmane, Rachid Seghir, Hamid Ramdani, Djammal Dahmani, Jillali Saidi, Abdelhak Rabhi, and Chaaban Baikel for various combinations of proselytizing, blasphemy, and illegally practicing a non-Muslim faith. Courts sentenced each to prison terms and fines. A court acquitted Ourahmane, Seghir, and Ramdani of their charges on October 29. The other cases were pending at the end of the year.
Authorities arrested six residents of the town of Biskra for eating and playing cards during daylight hours of Ramadan. On October 5, a judge found all six guilty and fined them 120,000 dinars each ($1,770). Six days later an appeals court judge overruled the decision, saying that the original sentence violated the constitution, which provides for freedom of belief. In a separate incident, the Algiers appeals court on November 18 reduced the sentence of three years' imprisonment to two months of time served for three men convicted of smoking during Ramadan. Authorities arrested the men September 21 and detained them for the duration of their trial.
Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy:
Why does the Monarch need to be head of the church anymore???
To keep the divorces going?Why does the Monarch need to be head of the church anymore???
No, rvg, I'm totally cool with your definition of Islamist. Let's just use that one from now on and bomb everyone in the Middle-East. It'd solve a lot of problems, right?
Originally Posted by Hax:
No, rvg, I'm totally cool with your definition of Islamist. Let's just use that one from now on and bomb everyone in the Middle-East. It'd solve a lot of problems, right?
You're the one suggesting it, not I.No, rvg, I'm totally cool with your definition of Islamist. Let's just use that one from now on and bomb everyone in the Middle-East. It'd solve a lot of problems, right?
Isn't it what you're implying though?
It's nothing against you personally, it's just that I'm sick and tired of all these self-appointed experts on Islamic jurisprudence and the position of Islamic law within civil society. We spend like 1/3rds of every class pertaining to this issue defining exactly what Islamism is and what kind of position it has, but you're just barging through that with your own interpretation that has no real basis in reality. That's exactly what my problem is. That's right, I don't think you know a lot about the Middle East.
It's nothing against you personally, it's just that I'm sick and tired of all these self-appointed experts on Islamic jurisprudence and the position of Islamic law within civil society. We spend like 1/3rds of every class pertaining to this issue defining exactly what Islamism is and what kind of position it has, but you're just barging through that with your own interpretation that has no real basis in reality. That's exactly what my problem is. That's right, I don't think you know a lot about the Middle East.
Originally Posted by Hax:
Isn't it what you're implying though?
Where? How? I just want to call a spade a spade, i.e. call Algeria for what it is: an islamist state. How does one jump from that to bombing? Can you explain your leap of logic here?Isn't it what you're implying though?
You are fully aware of the implications of designating a state or an organisation as Islamist: against the West, potentially funding terrorists, imposing Islamic law on the population, basically as a threat to the West.
Also, your designation of calling Algeria an Islamist state is just not founded in reality. There's absolutely nothing there. Now if you'd said Saudi-Arabia, I could go along. But Algeria, an Islamist state? Let's get real here.
Also, your designation of calling Algeria an Islamist state is just not founded in reality. There's absolutely nothing there. Now if you'd said Saudi-Arabia, I could go along. But Algeria, an Islamist state? Let's get real here.
Originally Posted by Hax:
You are fully aware of the implications of designating a state or an organisation as Islamist: against the West, potentially funding terrorists, imposing Islamic law on the population, basically as a threat to the West.
Saudi Arabia does not seem to care.... You are fully aware of the implications of designating a state or an organisation as Islamist: against the West, potentially funding terrorists, imposing Islamic law on the population, basically as a threat to the West.
Originally Posted by :
Also, your designation of calling Algeria an Islamist state is just not founded in reality. There's absolutely nothing there. Now if you'd said Saudi-Arabia, I could go along. But Algeria, an Islamist state? Let's get real here.
So, persecuting Christians in Algeria is not islamist? Jailing people for non-compliance with ramadan is not Islamist? Did you even read your own source?Also, your designation of calling Algeria an Islamist state is just not founded in reality. There's absolutely nothing there. Now if you'd said Saudi-Arabia, I could go along. But Algeria, an Islamist state? Let's get real here.
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