Things Strike Doesn't Understand About Modern Literature

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well there's only 2 left, and winter comes in the next one, so that should be interesting.

Winter is always coming, but you can bet your copper bottom that Martin will have killed off all the interesting characters by then.

Killing Ned off at the end of the first book was one thing, but now he introduces interesting characters just to kill them off, because his plot-essential characters are just ropotic machines following "prophecy".

Jordan did it better, his world had gravity, as in, you can't fire an arrow 700 feet straight up.

[Hooahguy]

Winter is always coming, but you can bet your copper bottom that Martin will have killed off all the interesting characters by then.

Killing Ned off at the end of the first book was one thing, but now he introduces interesting characters just to kill them off, because his plot-essential characters are just ropotic machines following "prophecy".

Jordan did it better, his world had gravity, as in, you can't fire an arrow 700 feet straight up.

Oh dont be such a pessimist.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Oh dont be such a pessimist.

He's also really transparent, the only "twists" I missed were the really obvious ones I discounted as too bleeding obvious.

In which vein:

All Hail King Jon I, natural son of Prince Rhaegar!

Oh, and I hope Varys marries and has lots of children.

[rajpoot]

Some degree of escapism is necessary to survive the dreariness of life. Be it fantasy books, video games, movies or....other stimulants.
And books, at least are the least harmful form of escapism. No damage to the eyes or the liver.

Oh, and I hope Varys marries and has lots of children.

I don't think that's going to happen. Varys is in a long distance relationship with Illyrio.
Did you not know?

[Greyblades]

He's also really transparent, the only "twists" I missed were the really obvious ones I discounted as too bleeding obvious.

In which vein:

All Hail King Jon I, natural son of Prince Rhaegar!

Oh, and I hope Varys marries and has lots of children.

...You saw the shadow killing renly coming?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

...You saw the shadow killing renly coming?

I forsaw his death by magic before he and his boyfriend ground Stannis into the dirt.

[Greyblades]

Really? I was expecting a regular assassin personally, or that stannis would bug off and then wait until renly had taken kings landing before offing him in the middle of the battle. I did not expect the light based magician would bring out a shadow-baby-thing.

[Sir Moody]

Really? I was expecting a regular assassin personally, or that stannis would bug off and then wait until renly had taken kings landing before offing him in the middle of the battle. I did not expect the light based magician would bring out a shadow-baby-thing.

personally I found the earlier books were much less predictable - Ned losing a couple of feet in height for example and Rob ending up "merged" with his wolf.

The last 2 books have been terrible predictable - maybe its because I know GRRM's style of writing now... or maybe he's losing his grip on the story much like Robert Jordan did - simple spinning his wheels and not getting far...

[Greyblades]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yeah, I suppose, though the whole bit with Jon getting shanked was surprising, if only for how stupid jon was acting.

[Sir Moody]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Shanking wasn't surprising at all - you could see it coming from the first quarter of the book - Jon's behaviour on the other hand was only shocking because he was acting completely out of the character established in the previous books... basically he was rail roaded by the Author to justify the shanking...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yeah, I suppose, though the whole bit with Jon getting shanked was surprising, if only for how stupid jon was acting.

Really? That was forshadowed in the previous book.

I really do have problems with his charactarisation, Stannis, for example, is entirely too flat, as is Cirsei, here POV chapters litterally added NOTHING to her character, except for the titbit that she expected to marry Rhaegar - a quick mention of that by Varys, or anyone, would have achieved as much.

Ned was not exactly complex, but in context that was OK because he was likable and you could see that he thought in straight lines, but then what gets him in trouble is that, for the first time EVER, he thinks bendy and it gets him killed.

Ned's character demanded he do the honourable thing and tell Robert the truth, then worry about the bastards, but instead he lied.

Nor is he the only character to die from a moment of Epic Stupid which is also completely out of character.

Jordan did "spin his wheels" for several books, but Knife of Dreams was some of his best writing, which shows it was a lack of focus rather than talent.

Martin may just be rubbish when all it said and done - his writing time is also heinous given the absurdities he leaves in.

[Greyblades]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Shanking wasn't surprising at all - you could see it coming from the first quarter of the book - Jon's behaviour on the other hand was only shocking because he was acting completely out of the character established in the previous books... basically he was rail roaded by the Author to justify the shanking...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Well it was shocking to me, I didnt think Jon snow was dumb enough to even consider marching south just because ramsay bolton trolled him. Seriously the last straw that turned the nightswatch completely against him really came out of nowhere.

Martin may just be rubbish when all it said and done - his writing time is also heinous given the absurdities he leaves in.

*Gasp* How dare you have a bad opinion on something I like! You should be drowned in jelly you insolent cur!

[rajpoot]

See how the invisible hand of GRRM reaches out to hijack STFS's thread.
Fantasy fiction is here to stay.

[Beskar]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

[rajpoot]

I really do have problems with his charactarisation, Stannis, for example, is entirely too flat, as is Cirsei, here POV chapters litterally added NOTHING to her character, except for the titbit that she expected to marry Rhaegar - a quick mention of that by Varys, or anyone, would have achieved as much.

I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

[The Lurker Below]

Who was the top recruiter for NASA?

Hint it has to do with fiction.

Isaac Asimov?
I have no idea but offer this in hopes that you will provide the correct answer.

As for my e-reader, back off. I must read a lot more than you do, because I have no desire to continue carrying around so many pieces of paper when I can get away with carrying around a little tiny Kindle.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

No, that's the second biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that the world makes no logical sense, at all. For starters, the seasons: nice idea but we have heard nothing about a magical or scientific mechanisims which cause it, nor how the people survive the long seasons. This isn't just a problem in Winter, but in Summer also, because many plants need a cylce to both grow and ripen, without seasonal rains and sunshine followed by a winter in which the land lies fallow the crops will fails, and the land itself will die.

Betond this, Martin's concept of warfare and how battle works is deaply flawed, as most clearly shown in the siege of the Wall. The Wall is a 700 feet barrier of sheer ice, it is therefore totally impassable, you cannot scale it, you cannot hit a target atop it and you can't knock it down because the base would need to be SO wide (and we know it is) that causing a structural weakness midway up would simple cause the top to collapse onto the bottom, leaving you a slightly shorter inpenetrable wall.

Martin's complete incomprehension of, well, physics is best shown when men are shot off the Wall using longbows. The maximum range of a longbow is around 200 yards, but the Wall is 230 odd yards straight up with gravity acting on the arrow it is quite impossible for the projectile to reach the top of the wall, and even if it did, it would lack penetrative power.

Also, bolting your greathelm to your gorget is dumb.

As a Norseman - I find the Ironmen both absurd and offensive, we plowed thank you very much.

I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

I haven't read the most recent book, I no longer care for the series but the previous book's POV chapters told me nothing that was not already obvious, POV's from other characters would have been more revealing and added more to the story.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

No, that's the second biggest problem.

The biggest problem is that the world makes no logical sense, at all. For starters, the seasons: nice idea but we have heard nothing about a magical or scientific mechanisims which cause it, nor how the people survive the long seasons. This isn't just a problem in Winter, but in Summer also, because many plants need a cylce to both grow and ripen, without seasonal rains and sunshine followed by a winter in which the land lies fallow the crops will fails, and the land itself will die.

Betond this, Martin's concept of warfare and how battle works is deaply flawed, as most clearly shown in the siege of the Wall. The Wall is a 700 feet barrier of sheer ice, it is therefore totally impassable, you cannot scale it, you cannot hit a target atop it and you can't knock it down because the base would need to be SO wide (and we know it is) that causing a structural weakness midway up would simple cause the top to collapse onto the bottom, leaving you a slightly shorter inpenetrable wall.

Martin's complete incomprehension of, well, physics is best shown when men are shot off the Wall using longbows. The maximum range of a longbow is around 200 yards, but the Wall is 230 odd yards straight up with gravity acting on the arrow it is quite impossible for the projectile to reach the top of the wall, and even if it did, it would lack penetrative power.

Also, bolting your greathelm to your gorget is dumb.

As a Norseman - I find the Ironmen both absurd and offensive, we plowed thank you very much.

I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

I haven't read the most recent book, I no longer care for the series but the previous book's POV chapters told me nothing that was not already obvious, POV's from other characters would have been more revealing and added more to the story.

[Greyblades]

Yeesh, you really take things too literally. Really, in a world where dragons the size of double decker bus' can fly on wings that dont have a span of at least two football fields you have to accept that physics really dont work there the way it does here. The ability to stand up to scientific analysis is a sci-fi trait, not fantasy.
I cant really adress the wall bit, beyond the part where they werent trying to scale or knock down the wall but trying to get through the tunnels the nights watch had dug through it.
The arrows I dont mind, there's alot of theories about wind carrying the arrows further, maybe there's a wierd sort of wood, personally I think the only problem with that bit was that GRRM didnt even hand wave it.
Now the bolting of the greathelm, that is indeed dumb.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Complaining about physics in a fantasy world is like getting up in arms about Cortosis in StarWars, whatever sounds plausible and drives the story forward is fine.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The biggest problem with GRRM is that he likes to waffle and he likes to waffle a lot. There were chapters you could have simply removed and they would have made zero impact upon the story. Then there instances where there would be a complete minor character and he would give a massive introduction on his background then... that's it, his whole presence in the book was simply blabbering about his lineage.

I always thought that he added the Cersei chapters simply to make the people who hated her feel good after reading about how badly she screwed things up for herself. Specially evident in the most recent chapters.

Yeesh, you really take things too literally. Really, in a world where dragons the size of double decker bus' can fly on wings that dont have a span of at least two football fields you have to accept that physics really dont work there the way it does here. The ability to stand up to scientific analysis is a sci-fi trait, not fantasy.
Now the bolting of the greathelm, that is indeed dumb.

No

Fantasy should stand up to "gross" physics, if I drop a rock it should hit the ground, not float off into the distance. In the absense of any evidence/fluff to the contrary the wildlings are using yew longbows with draw weights in the ~120 range and clothyard arrows, Martin has even implied as much. If you want to "do" medieval Europe in fantasy you have to know how it actually works, otherwise you end up doing dumb stuff.

To put it another way, in the Lord of the Rings the walls of Minus Tirith are each 100 feet (33.3 yards) high, and there are seven of them, the Tower of Guard itself is 300 feets (100 yards) high, for a total of 1,000 yards from the valley floor to the top of the tower.

There are other incogruities, such as people drawing greatswords from their backs (a physical impossibility), the same weapons being too big to actually wield (Ice is as wide as a man's hand, that implies the weapon measures 5 inches or more at the base, to broad to use effectively, the weapon is also too large to use effectively from horseback (Tarly's greatsword has this problem also), Jon's Bastard sword, likewise, must be worn at the side in order to be drawn in one motion, but he hatibually wears it on his back.

The breaking of Ice and reforging into two new blades also shows a profound ignorance of the method Martin himself selected for the forging of Valarian steel. The blades have ripples in them because of the latteral folds as the blade is forged, this has been stated by Martin, the folds are therefore integral to the construction, and it would not be possible to create two narrower blades each around 2/3 or slighty less from tang to tip than Ice herself out of the original blade. If Valarian steel is in fact homogenous not only world folding be unnecessary but the ripples would not show in the metal, because they are caused by variable carbon-iron ratios in the metal.

Brienne of Tarth is absurd, Martin frenquently describes her as thick set, hunched of shoulder and excessively broad of hip. Her thick set frame naturally makes her slow, excessive musscle mass may increase power but it reduces speed, and swordcraft requires the latter much more than the former. Her habituale bad posture would cause lactic acid bui8ld up in her shoulders, causing cramp, reducing speed, power and endurance. Finally, her broad hip mean her hip joints are further apart, increasing the turning circle she has to move through, making her footwork slower and, I think reducing the power she recieves from spacing her legs.

Compare this to Skilgannon in White Wolf by David Gemmell, Skilgannon is lean, in impeccable physical condition, regularly exercises to maintain his balance and flexability and is, crucially, long of limb and broad of shoulder.

Skilgannon is a master swordsman, Brienne og Tarth is a joke.

[Greyblades]

Good lord, never give a history professor a fantasy novel. MST3K Mantra. You aren't reading Bernard Cornwell, you really gotta accept Rule of cool with this series.

As for Brienne I agree she's not a master swordsman but I dont think she's a joke, she's a practiced, big bruiser who while she could barely meet Jamie when he was malnourished and severely out of practice, she's still a master compared to, say, a man at arms.

[Centurion1]

phil, lighten up!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Good lord, never give a history professor a fantasy novel. MST3K Mantra. You aren't reading Bernard Cornwell, you really gotta accept Rule of cool with this series.

As for Brienne I agree she's not a master swordsman but I dont think she's a joke, she's a practiced, big bruiser who while she could barely meet Jamie when he was malnourished and severely out of practice, she's still a master compared to, say, a man at arms.

There is no "rule of cool", if the fact that Martin is describing arrows that apparently have jetpacks and Ser Ilyn Payne apparently dislocating his entire arm to draw his greatsword, doesn't bother you, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that for someone who has actually seen swordsmen and archers in real life these physical absurditities are very distracting, in the case of the battle on the Wall they ruined the enjoyment for me because I know it couldn't work like that, and the deaths of the men in the Watch just feel forced and cheap as a result.

As a character, Brienne is not absurd, though I find her too litteral, but that doesn't change the fact that the way Martin describes her fighting doesn't chime with the way he describes her physcially. I'm not asking for the typically willowy swordswoman, a la (say) Tynesia in Shadows of the Apt but I'd find her far more convincing as awarrior if she wasn't made to be hunchbacked and pearshaped, the description also seems excessively cruel.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

You read only non-fiction and you end up thinking you know more than people with far more education and life experience.

You will, if their life experience is reading long fantasy books.

1. 50 shades of grey. After 100 years of feminism, women prove all they want is to be dominated with some guy with money. The fact that someones fanfiction can turn into a bestseller is side turning

2. Building on my first point, Since when did creepiness replace romance? I mean I'm all for chains, hot wax, and massaing the prostate (male g-spot) but is this really the world you want to lose yourself in?

No one will read a romance book where the plot is "they met through friends and hung out for a while and then started dating and it worked out great", that's why romances have such wacky plots.

4. Excessively long fantasy books. Those hours spent reading 20,000 pages of George Martin could've been better spent brushing up on economic policy or understanding the root causes of the Napoleonic wars. Dragons aren't real, it's high time adults realzie that

Yes, escapist books are supposed to be for relaxation, being really long defeats the whole point. Same with video games.

[Greyblades]

There is no "rule of cool", if the fact that Martin is describing arrows that apparently have jetpacks and Ser Ilyn Payne apparently dislocating his entire arm to draw his greatsword, doesn't bother you, then fine. That doesn't change the fact that for someone who has actually seen swordsmen and archers in real life these physical absurditities are very distracting, in the case of the battle on the Wall they ruined the enjoyment for me because I know it couldn't work like that, and the deaths of the men in the Watch just feel forced and cheap as a result.

The size of the wall is aprox 700 ft, about 213 meters. According to wikipedia the longbow's range is between 165 to 228 m, also, "a flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400yds" or 365 meters. Now, whether this is the same firing at a high angle at a tall target is unlikely, but by looking at those stats I think there is a fair chance a lightweight arrow could reach the archers on the wall and with a strong southward wind they may even be capable of piercing light chainmail. With enough archers firing I dont find it unlikely the wildlings could have gotten a few lucky killing shots in.

[Papewaio]

Physics eh?

Why do hang gliders jump off cliffs? Because cliffs are perpendicular to land causing the air to push up the cliff face creating an updraft. The wider the cliff and higher it goes in general the stronger the updraft.

I'm pretty sure only one Black Watch died on the top of the wall due to a unlucky arrow being carried up.

Most fiction is wrote at the speed of plot. Not all sci fi stands up to science... Warp speed, lazed swords, lasers beams that slowly track across the screen.

More near future stuff annoys me. Jurassic Park... I looked at how the pens were setup and the lack of redundant systems ie two sets of physical fences. Or the speed of DNA analysis in crime shows.

Anyhow unless it is inconsistent I normally don't get too worried about it.

As for pear shaped and slow ... Ever seen how fast Sumo wrestlers move, pivot and slap?

[Greyblades]

I defer to your superior confidence in your knowledge of physics.

[rajpoot]

Actually it's only hard to draw a greatsword from the back if it is in an actual sheath. I always assumed it was simply strapped on to the back.

[Sir Moody]

Additionally GRRM is only a writer you cannot expect him to be flawless - while I may criticise some of his recent writing I wont criticise the world he has created for being "too unrealistic"

An interesting fact came up in a recent interview with the guys doing the Computer RPG - they regularly talk to GRRM and show him areas in the game to make sure it matches his vision of the area - when they showed him the Wall his first response was "Its too big!", they pointed out they had made it to his specification. GRRM's response was "I've made it too Big!!"