U.S. Ambassador and three others killed in Libya.

[Fisherking]

This was my first thought on the matter... This was just a carried out plan.
GaDaffy sympathizers instigated this and used a bad cover "some obscure anti-muslim film" to further fuel the extremists.
This was an act of war (killing a nation's diplomatic envoys and ambassador) in the hopes of US retaliations against Libya. If lucky USA will cut diplomacy with the current government and maybe free the way back to power.

No, I don’t think so. Until they can prove it my guess it is just a Bug-a-bear cover story. It will get him mileage in the press and sympathy form the public and he never needs to prove it.

The Libyan populous is heavily enough armed to break in with enough time and no real police response. Several RPGs will knock down even the blast resistant doors. They are made to buy time for response teams, which were not coming. We are luck there were only 4 casualties.

[gaelic cowboy]

He could talk a bit tougher, whether he means it or not.

Even if he did you would have just ignored it as rhetoric and declared action was required not tough words.

The US looks like it is in a weak position and can’t do a thing. What effect do you think that will have?

The USA is in a weak position because it's Mid East problems are no longer frozen and therefore harder to control.

Yemen is a result of the statement and the policy. Now it is just party time down at the embassy until these people find a new dog to beat.

Yemen is a result of the fact Yemen is a basketcase

[Viking]

No, I don’t think so. Until they can prove it my guess it is just a Bug-a-bear cover story. It will get him mileage in the press and sympathy form the public and he never needs to prove it.

The Libyan populous is heavily enough armed to break in with enough time and no real police response. Several RPGs will knock down even the blast resistant doors. They are made to buy time for response teams, which were not coming. We are luck there were only 4 casualties.

There are indicators that it was either planned or carried out by several 'professionals':

Libya rescue squad ran into fierce, accurate ambush

A squad of U.S. troops despatched by helicopter across the Libyan desert to rescue besieged diplomats from Benghazi on Wednesday ran into a fierce overnight ambush that left a further two Americans dead, Libyan officials told Reuters.

Accounts of the mayhem at the U.S. consulate, where the ambassador and a fourth American died after a chaotic protest over a film insulting to Islam, remain patchy. But two Libyan officials, including the commander of a security force which escorted the U.S. rescuers, said a later assault on a supposedly safe refuge for the diplomats appeared professionally executed.

[...]

Captain Fathi al-Obeidi, whose special operations unit was ordered by Libya's authorities to meet an eight-man force at Benghazi airport, said that after his men and the U.S. squad had found the American survivors who had evacuated the blazing consulate, the ostensibly secret location in an isolated villa came under an intense and highly accurate mortar barrage.

"I really believe that this attack was planned," he said, adding to suggestions by other Libyan officials that at least some of the hostility towards the Americans was the work of experienced combatants. "The accuracy with which the mortars hit us was too good for any regular revolutionaries."

[...]

"It began to rain down on us," Obeidi told Reuters, describing the moment the attack began - just as the Libyan security force was starting up the 10 pickup trucks and sedans they had brought to ferry the Americans to the airport.

"About six mortars fell directly on the path to the villa," he said. "During this firing, one of the marines whom I had brought with me was wounded and fell to the ground.

"As I was dragging the wounded marine to safety, some marines who were located on the roof of the villa as snipers shouted and the rest of the marines all hit the ground.

"A mortar hit the side of the house. One of the marines from the roof went flying and fell on top of us."

[Major Robert Dump]

That film has been out for a while. Funny it just now stirs controversy.

I actually think the protests and the kills ARE linked, but that the protestors were unwitting participants.

Remember Mazi Ar Shariff in Afghanistan? Same thing happened. The badguys used social media and cell phones to whip people into a flash mob, then used the flash mob as cover to assault the base and cut some heads off. This is common practice, and for the badguys it is a win-win, because they get their kills and the blame initially goes on the locals.... if they are lucky, some locals are killed in the process,,, if they are really lucky there is multi layered political fallout and the gap between the religions and cultures are further widened, which is what they are ultimately after

[Vladimir]

That film has been out for a while. Funny it just now stirs controversy.

I actually think the protests and the kills ARE linked, but that the protestors were unwitting participants.

Remember Mazi Ar Shariff in Afghanistan? Same thing happened. The badguys used social media and cell phones to whip people into a flash mob, then used the flash mob as cover to assault the base and cut some heads off. This is common practice, and for the badguys it is a win-win, because they get their kills and the blame initially goes on the locals.... if they are lucky, some locals are killed in the process,,, if they are really lucky there is multi layered political fallout and the gap between the religions and cultures are further widened, which is what they are ultimately after

They are linked. That's been confirmed. They're brutal but smart.

[Beskar]

Western interests

I like your imperialism. People can suffer just as long as it is 'our' dictator. Crackpots killing thousands of innocents is perfectly okay as they are serving 'Western interests'.

Libya is still going through the stages of stablising, and oddly enough, these attacks are happening elsewhere too. There are also signs as posted by Hax where the "silent majority" of Libyans support the US and are very thankful for their efforts.

I guess appreciation for good work and a bright future for the Libyan people isn't enough.

Very reminiscent of pre-World War 2 where many in the west saw Hitler as "Our guy" and "buffer against Russia" and the later examples such as the America overthrowing democratic elected governments in coups to "impose our guys" which lead to the Islamic Revolution of Iran and a bunch of tinpot states scattered across the globe.

It is about time geopolitics shifted away from that, and Libya was an example of how the USA should intervene. Helping the natives when it is needed and offering/supplying support in constructing a modern democratic state.

[rvg]

Crackpots killing thousands of innocents is perfectly okay as they are serving 'Western interests'.

It is regrettable, but ultimately not our problem.

[Fragony]

I like your imperialism. People can suffer just as long as it is 'our' dictator. Crackpots killing thousands of innocents is perfectly okay as they are serving 'Western interests'.

Libya was doing fine

[Major Robert Dump]

Ghadaffi had an entourage of all female bodyguards. I supported him for this alone, and was very saddened when he got stabbed in the butthole

[Lemur]

He could talk a bit tougher, whether he means it or not.

You know, we tried the tough-talking, "come at me bro" style for eight years, without great results. Bluster is not always desirable.



Furthermore, macho posturing is usually an indication of weakness, not strength. It's kinda like if you declare that you're cool, by definition you are not cool.

If you want to blame some of the current situation on President 44's policies, that's an argument to make, but your irritation at his tone seems petty, misguided, and misplaced.

[Vladimir]

I like your imperialism. People can suffer just as long as it is 'our' dictator. Crackpots killing thousands of innocents is perfectly okay as they are serving 'Western interests'.

Libya is still going through the stages of stablising, and oddly enough, these attacks are happening elsewhere too. There are also signs as posted by Hax where the "silent majority" of Libyans support the US and are very thankful for their efforts.

I guess appreciation for good work and a bright future for the Libyan people isn't enough.

Very reminiscent of pre-World War 2 where many in the west saw Hitler as "Our guy" and "buffer against Russia" and the later examples such as the America overthrowing democratic elected governments in coups to "impose our guys" which lead to the Islamic Revolution of Iran and a bunch of tinpot states scattered across the globe.

It is about time geopolitics shifted away from that, and Libya was an example of how the USA should intervene. Helping the natives when it is needed and offering/supplying support in constructing a modern democratic state.

American over throwing democratically elected governments? If you referring to Africa I suggest: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_1atrij2yij_b

Battling myths of Cold War history.

[HopAlongBunny]

I doubt it has much to do with the dearly departed Daffy.

Libya has enough divisions w/o resurrecting him; until the state stabilizes and someone has authority (maybe even felt to be legitimate) the "crown" is going to be considered "in play". To drive a wedge between whatever national gov't emerges and the US is to the advantage of many groups; some not even indigenous to Libya.

I think it is a real failure of intelligence work in Libya that the incident occurred, was successful and remains unattributed. No hint this was coming? Not even a feeling of: Gee, maybe we should buff up our security. Tragic, wherever the fault lies anyhow.

[Lemur]

Kind of a side-issue, but it looks as though AP found the actual "Sam Bacille." His name is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula, 55, told The Associated Press in an interview outside Los Angeles that he was manager for the company that produced "Innocence of Muslims," which mocked Muslims and the prophet Muhammad and may have caused inflamed mobs that attacked U.S. missions in Egypt and Libya. He provided the first details about a shadowy production group behind the film.

Nakoula denied he directed the film and said he knew the self-described filmmaker, Sam Bacile. But the cell phone number that AP contacted Tuesday to reach the filmmaker who identified himself as Sam Bacile traced to the same address near Los Angeles where AP found Nakoula. Federal court papers said Nakoula's aliases included Nicola Bacily, Erwin Salameh and others.

Nakoula told the AP that he was a Coptic Christian and said the film's director supported the concerns of Christian Copts about their treatment by Muslims.

Nakoula denied he had posed as Bacile. During a conversation outside his home, he offered his driver's license to show his identity but kept his thumb over his middle name, Basseley. Records checks by the AP subsequently found it and other connections to the Bacile persona. [...]

Nakoula, who talked guardedly about his role, pleaded no contest in 2010 to federal bank fraud charges in California and was ordered to pay more than $790,000 in restitution. He was also sentenced to 21 months in federal prison and ordered not to use computers or the Internet for five years without approval from his probation officer. [...]

Assistant U.S. Attorney Jennifer Leigh Williams said Nakoula set up fraudulent bank accounts using stolen identities and Social Security numbers, then checks from those accounts would be deposited into other bogus accounts from which Nakoula would withdraw money at ATM machines.

It was "basically a check-kiting scheme," the prosecutor told the AP. "You try to get the money out of the bank before the bank realizes they are drawn from a fraudulent account. There basically is no money."

[rvg]

Kind of a side-issue, but it looks as though AP found the actual "Sam Bacille." His name is Nakoula Basseley Nakoula.

This guy is not very bright. $50 says that there will be a fatwa on his hiney before the end of the month.

[Fragony]

Oh please no. If this was made by a coptian christian that is bad

[Lemur]

Yes he is a Coptic Christian, yes he was behind the film, and yes this is being confirmed by law enforcement. There's also a rather strange group called "Media for Christ" which is hip-deep in this sham.

[A] law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity confirmed to the AP that Nakoula was in fact behind the production of the film to a degree must larger than he claimed.

During their investigation, the AP identified Nakoula as an ex-con who had been convicted of bank fraud. He described himself as a Coptic Christian and had connections with Morris Sadek, a conservative practicing member of the religion who had promoted "Innocence of Muslims,” in the days before the film is believed to have sparked outrage overseas.

On their part, LA Weekly claims to have successfully tied Nakoula to Media for Christ, a company that described itself as “established to become the light that shows Jesus Christ to all human beings” that is also listed on the permit obtained to film the flick.

[Sir Moody]

if the article is to be believed the guy is a scam artist - I wouldn't believe he is a Coptic just because he says so...

Edit

Seems he really is ... wow this could get bad

[Xiahou]

As I said in a different thread, I can't understand why the US media isn't more interested in the woefully inadequate security at the consulate...

Ambassador Stevens killed at site with no Marines

The consulate where the American ambassador to Libya was killed on Tuesday is an “interim facility” not protected by the contingent of Marines that safeguards embassies, POLITICO has learned.

The Benghazi consulate had “lock-and-key” security, not the same level of defenses as a formal embassy, an intelligence source told POLITICO. That means it had no bulletproof glass, reinforced doors or other features common to embassies. The intelligence source contrasted it with the American embassy in Cairo, Egypt – “a permanent facility, which is a lot easier to defend.” The Cairo embassy also was attacked Tuesday.

Why was this permitted? It's not like there weren't indications that attacks could happen.

Several RPGs will knock down even the blast resistant doors. They are made to buy time for response teams, which were not coming. We are luck there were only 4 casualties.

There were no blast resistant doors there.

[Vladimir]

Well in fairness if it was a consulate and not a full embassy the amount of security would be dramatically lowered. Of course, it is Libya, but you may want to see if this is the norm.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Anybody on site who has served as an Embassy Marine care to handle the particulars here?


As the Yemeni incident earlier today indicates, embassy security must inevitably rely on the basic security of the surrounding environment. The marines and other security can handle isolated incidents and can, occassionally, "face down" some intrusion or mob aggression. If a mob gets serious and is not headed off by numerous security personnel from the host country, then the marines are faced with a simple choice: Do I mow down largely unarmed civilians in job lots to defend the embassy or consular compound or do I retreat to the next line of defense and delay/stall for time/let the local security build up a response? I cannot imagine the difficulty in gauging the proper reaction. What a host of variables to consider and what a horror story if I choose incorrectly.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well in fairness if it was a consulate and not a full embassy the amount of security would be dramatically lowered. Of course, it is Libya, but you may want to see if this is the norm.

Uh... Given some cash I'm pretty sure I could wipe out the US embassy here no problem... It's an embassy, not a fort. And when you start building them like forts, that would signal a problem larger than the matter at hand, and would also very much go against what the embassy is all about.

[Fragony]

Uh... Given some cash I'm pretty sure I could wipe out the US embassy here no problem... It's an embassy, not a fort. And when you start building them like forts, that would signal a problem larger than the matter at hand, and would also very much go against what the embassy is all about.

You can’t read this

[Vladimir]

Uh... Given some cash I'm pretty sure I could wipe out the US embassy here no problem... It's an embassy, not a fort. And when you start building them like forts, that would signal a problem larger than the matter at hand, and would also very much go against what the embassy is all about.

Fine, here's some Bitcoin. Good luck.

Picks or it didn't happen.

[Hooahguy]

Uh... Given some cash I'm pretty sure I could wipe out the US embassy here no problem... It's an embassy, not a fort. And when you start building them like forts, that would signal a problem larger than the matter at hand, and would also very much go against what the embassy is all about.

But at the same time, you need to have a certain level of defense in the embassies in the more dangerous countries. There is a responsibility of the government to keep their diplomats and state department officials safe in volatile environments.

[Xiahou]

Well in fairness if it was a consulate and not a full embassy the amount of security would be dramatically lowered. Of course, it is Libya, but you may want to see if this is the norm.

That's kind of the point. The embassy in Tripoli is reinforced and guarded by Marines. Why was the ambassador stationed in an unfortified consulate, with no Marine escort on September 11, when there was reason to suspect attacks?

[Vladimir]

That's kind of the point. The embassy in Tripoli is reinforced and guarded by Marines. Why was the ambassador stationed in an unfortified consulate, with no Marine escort on September 11, when there was reason to suspect attacks?

And there's the rub. Why was he there? Who knew he would be there on that day? How did they know? ...

[rvg]

And there's the rub. Why was he there? Who knew he would be there on that day? How did they know? ...

I don't think he was directly targeted, his death was just an icing on the cake. They obviously went after the easier target (consulate vs embassy) as to improve their odds of success. Why was he there? Apparently, he liked to go there at least twice a year to check on the local developments, talk to staff and local groups.

[Vladimir]

I don't think he was directly targeted, his death was just an icing on the cake. They obviously went after the easier target (consulate vs embassy) as to improve their odds of success. Why was he there? Apparently, he liked to go there at least twice a year to check on the local developments, talk to staff and local groups.

Given that there was some level of planning I believe it is possible that he was deliberate a target. Plus, those guys are pretty obvious when they travel.

[Major Robert Dump]

I don't think he was directly targeted, his death was just an icing on the cake. They obviously went after the easier target (consulate vs embassy) as to improve their odds of success. Why was he there? Apparently, he liked to go there at least twice a year to check on the local developments, talk to staff and local groups.

Man, I don't know. Not on 9/11. I don't think his superiors would approve of such a trip. They won't even let the military go out on normal, day-to-day missions on 9/11 in afghanistan without an additional level of approval by the big wigs.

But hey, maybe this guy was so loved in the community he felt no danger. As said before, there are some hidden puppeteers here, and they used the protesters as cover, I doubt the locals were involved directly in his death

[rvg]

Man, I don't know. Not on 9/11. I don't think his superiors would approve of such a trip.

He could have traveled there the day before and stayed overnight.