U.S. Ambassador and three others killed in Libya.

[Fragony]

Not so much with Islam, but rather with the nonsense around it.

You are going to get bombed, in the worst way possible

[HopAlongBunny]

Within any societal division you want to make you will find perfectly reasonable people with whom you can work, and you will find crazies (I call them something a lil stronger) who are a complete waste of time to try to deal with. Defining each classification around the crazies might be safer but its a focus that does not get you anywhere. While I personally wouldn't have cared if they shuttered the churches here during the "Snipers for Christ" fad of the "pro-life" movement, I think that would have been counter-productive. Labeling every Christian as a murderer and exterminating them would have caught a lot of innocent people, and a lot of good people.

[Hax]

You are going to get bombed, in the worst way possible

Yeah, well, I'm not afraid of the Sharia4Belgium and their goons.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ger?intcmp=239

Backlash against the Islamists has started.

[Hax]

Interesting, thanks for the link.

[HopAlongBunny]

OMG! They have infected the Beaver People! Noooo!!!!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...m-protest.html

[Husar]

So, which leadership do the Germans deserve?

a) Nazis
b) Merkel
c) the Iron Chancellor

c!!

[Fragony]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ger?intcmp=239

Backlash against the Islamists has started.

That's good

[quadalpha]

I am sorry you don’t think you have the info to judge.

I know it was reported. I just can’t say it got into mainstream US media.

That sir, is the problem.

The information came from Libyan TV and European journalists in the country.

An angry mob did the job with a little help from sympathetic Libyan security people on site who told them where the safe house was.

The government is feeding you a conspiracy theory that it was a planned attack by some terror organization. Some how they think that lets them off the hook for what happened to their people.

The TV footage was pulled from Youtube. Who do you think has the power to make them take it down?

Now, I am no Republican and I don’t think anyone would class me as rightwing. I once was a very active Democrat. What drove me from that party was this very issue.

I am just pointing out what I have found. If you don’t care to believe it or if you prefer to believe what you are told without question that is your choice.

All this information is (or at least was) available.

I don't believe anything without question. All sources of information are limited in reliability either actively or passively. So, in this case, I am not sure why I should valorise Libyan or European journalists' reports, as you would not expect journalists in general to have access to evidence of a conspiracy anyway. Now I admit I have not seen the pulled Youtube footage, and so have not been able to take that into account.

I mean, I'm not saying you are wrong. In fact, it's quite plausible, and you may well have access to better information than I've seen, but I'm just maintaining the legitimacy of saying I just don't know.

[PanzerJaeger]

double

[PanzerJaeger]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ger?intcmp=239

Backlash against the Islamists has started.

That's a backlash? The reporter basically found a government official and a few people in the street who said that they did not like the Islamists very much but that could be bothered to do anything about it. They would not even question them in the hospital. I also enjoyed the implication that the people were against killing Americans not because it is a particularly bad thing to do, but because it may cause the Americans to stop giving things to Libya.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Libyan history could have seen that the initial armed uprising against Gaddafi in Benghazi was the work of LIFG type Islamists, not liberals - who are more interested in posting youtube videos and skyping with journalists than fighting. The protests were a cover and nothing more. It took the Syrian opposition nearly a year to militarize. Islamists were storming government barracks within 3 days in Libya.

But no one in the West wanted to hear it. The narrative was too strong. People still to this day believe the nonsense about Gaddafi forces slaughtering protestors in the streets and an imminent genocide. The Security Council vote was pushed through without any actual knowledge of the reality on the ground in Libya. And now it appears we have handed large swathes of the nation to anti-Western Islamists.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's a backlash? The reporter basically found a government official and a few people in the street who said that they did not like the Islamists very much but that could be bothered to do anything about it. They would not even question them in the hospital. I also enjoyed the implication that the people were against killing Americans not because it is a particularly bad thing to do, but because it may cause the Americans to stop giving things to Libya.

Anyone with even a passing knowledge of Libyan history could have seen that the initial armed uprising against Gaddafi in Benghazi was the work of LIFG type Islamists, not liberals - who are more interested in posting youtube videos and skyping with journalists than fighting. The protests were a cover and nothing more. It took the Syrian opposition nearly a year to militarize. Islamists were storming government barracks within 3 days in Libya.

But no one in the West wanted to hear it. The narrative was too strong. People still to this day believe the nonsense about Gaddafi forces slaughtering protestors in the streets and an imminent genocide. The Security Council vote was pushed through without any actual knowledge of the reality on the ground in Libya. And now it appears we have handed large swathes of the nation to anti-Western Islamists.

Well, we hate you and we don't try to kill you - we just want the F-35.

So Libya should fit right in.

Have you seen the pictures of the Libyan girls with tea lights and photographs of the ambassador?

[Noncommunist]

So why did this supposedly Islamist movement give way to a liberal party in power?

[quadalpha]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/wo...-militias.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/op...the-video.html

[PanzerJaeger]

Have you seen the pictures of the Libyan girls with tea lights and photographs of the ambassador?

Adorable, but how is their proficiency with Soviet bloc small arms?

So why did this supposedly Islamist movement give way to a liberal party in power?

Fraud of course. Don't be naive, the West got exactly the government it wanted out of the elections, and that government has exactly no power over the nation writ large. Just like in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yemen, the West will have to continue to do the heavy lifting to keep the nominal government in Tripoli propped up if it has any hope of getting a decent ROI on this latest adventure. The drones have already been sent in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Adorable, but how is their proficiency with Soviet bloc small arms?

As I said to rvg, you don't change things just by killing people.

Western backing for the popular uprising (and there was one beyond the Islamists) meant that it wasn't the Islamists that freed Libya, it was a cross-section of Libyans backed by the "Christian" NATO.

Fraud of course. Don't be naive, the West got exactly the government it wanted out of the elections, and that government has exactly no power over the nation writ large. Just like in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yemen, the West will have to continue to do the heavy lifting to keep the nominal government in Tripoli propped up if it has any hope of getting a decent ROI on this latest adventure. The drones have already been sent in.

I was not aware of widespread accusations of fraud in Libya, generally I believe UN observers found the elections to be mostly free and fair.

As to the Islamists, they'll have to fight the tribes and the regional militias if they want to subvert the elections. The Libyans right now want a democracy, and it looks like they will continue to want one. It also looks like many members of the NTC, who didn't stand in the recent elections, are on course for electoral success once the Constitution has been drafted.

Libya has a lot of problems, but writing the country off as a basket case and painting Gadaffi's crackdown as a fabrication are hardly helping.

I genuinely hope you are wrong about the drones, because all that will do will damage American credibility in the eyes of the Libyans, and your international stock is low enough already after Iraq and especially Lebanon.

[Major Robert Dump]

Don't underestimate the power of candles and signs. This one time when we were pinned in an ambush, we pulled out our candles and signs and the Haqqani then left us alone. It's a little known fact that suicide bombers, while they do target civilians, will shy away from people with sings and candles. The DOD is thinking of making signs and candles standard issue for all American troops in afghanistan because it will probably keep the ANA and ANP from shooting us in the backs due to an argument over canaloupe in the dining facility.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In related news: Libya's elected assembly asks the Us not to blow up their city without asking.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ilitary-action

At this point, Drone strikes would be an Act of War.

[Fragony]

-Link removed-

The cartoon that caused zero outrage globally. Leftist people know, for a fact, that it has nothing to do with islam

Edit: hehe in all fairness, these sharia4belgium idiots called for a protest in Amsterdam, nobody came but them

Dutchie muslims quite the contrast with the 230 arrests made in Antwerpen

My theory: they are used to being insulted by now just like everybody else

[Major Robert Dump]

In related news: Libya's elected assembly asks the Us not to blow up their city without asking.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...ilitary-action

At this point, Drone strikes would be an Act of War.

Attacking an embassy and murdering its occupants is an act of war, funny how that works

[Papewaio]

Can an enemy combatant start a war between nations?

[Major Robert Dump]

If the host country let the attack happen -- gave the location of the safe house in fact -- then I would say yes, probably.

I want you guys to think of every crazy conspiracy movie you have ever seen. Every CIA-gonna-bomb-LA so their budget doesnt get cut. Every Fireman-gonna-start-fires for job protection. Every crazy scenario where people sell out other people -- often innocent people -- in order to save their own skin or to make a few bucks.

This is happening in Mexico with the drug war, and this is happening in the middle east, north africa and east asia with occupying militaries and foreign aid. People scoff at the idea that foerign aid gets funneled to the enemy which in turn keeps the foriegn aid flowing like water. People scoff at the idea that authorities pay tribute to the really bad people in exchange for mutual breathing room. We are talking about money and power here, and the big stupid americans and their bottomless bank accounts are more than happy to keep funneling money. Whats a few less infidels more or less.

[quadalpha]

The cartoon that caused zero outrage globally. Leftist people know, for a fact, that it has nothing to do with islam

Hah, good one.

Yeah, I was thinking when I first heard that killing the ambassador has to carry serious consequences. It's so utterly barbaric that you realise that there is a limit to communication with these people.

[Fragony]

In Copenhagen there is also culture it seems, not that people who read non-quality media already knew that, but explosives have been found in an enriched area

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If I read one more news article about how a video "sparked" protests...

[Fragony]

If I read one more news article about how a video "sparked" protests...

you are going to explode??? ;)

[Fisherking]

Can an enemy combatant start a war between nations?

Serbia 1914?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Austria wanted that war - the Serbian terrorists were an excuse.

It currently seems unlikely that the Libyan government was involved, so US aggression would be unacceptable at this point.

[Fragony]

Austria wanted that war - the Serbian terrorists were an excuse

Heh no. It were the Serbian terrorists that wanted it, and Russia

Oh and Viking, the UN reported that jihadi's are now fighthing with the whoeverknowswhat, toldyouso total chaos

Accordding to the report violations of human rights are increasing in number, speed, and scale

aka wrong as usual

[HopAlongBunny]

The mistake is in thinking the civil war is over. With large armed groups still roving the country it is better to think of the end of the civil war as "under negotiation". A brief summary of the divisions SR 300.pdf; it could be well over a decade before this all shakes out.