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Thread: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

  1. #301
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    If chickens were single cell creatures then chicken could/would come first.

    But the chances of all the cells in a large multi cellular creature all experiencing the same mutation are diminishing small. Much easier for the changes to occur within a single cell ova or sperm.
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  2. #302

    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    There is nothing anti-scientific about reasoning "up" to a belief in god or in an immaterial soul. At that level of thought we are just grasping, our feeble attempts at expressing our experience of the world in words come up short, and we try for something that seems to fit best. The problems come with reasoning "down", with taking a belief in god as a solid premise or foundation (my directions are getting confused here sorry). Often people who believe in god have a much firmer grasp of the important truths than atheists. Theologians and religious philosphers on the other hand end up in all kinds of strange places.

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    Dragonslayer Emeritus Senior Member Sigurd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    There is nothing anti-scientific about reasoning "up" to a belief in god or in an immaterial soul. At that level of thought we are just grasping, our feeble attempts at expressing our experience of the world in words come up short, and we try for something that seems to fit best. The problems come with reasoning "down", with taking a belief in god as a solid premise or foundation (my directions are getting confused here sorry). Often people who believe in god have a much firmer grasp of the important truths than atheists. Theologians and religious philosophers on the other hand end up in all kinds of strange places.
    Exactly...

    Taking contemporary science and using it to develop explain theology is a fallacy. One we call the Aquinas fallacy.
    One such is the immaterial God, taken from the not so contemporary anti-matieria philosophy in the Hellenistic tradition. You got all kinds of new theology from that including monasticism.

    Then... when contemporary science is yesterday's news, you can either adapt theology to new contemporary science... or continue in your yesterday's theology and be creative.
    Last edited by Sigurd; 09-17-2012 at 10:56.
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  4. #304
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuuvi View Post
    This is one of the things that fascinates me about evolution. Where do we draw the line between proto-chicken and chicken? Did the chicken appear suddenly, or was it a slow gradual change?
    Slow gradual change and to answer your question, look at the animals we call "dogs" and how varied they are.
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Slow gradual change and to answer your question, look at the animals we call "dogs" and how varied they are.
    Except that foxes aren't wolves - so your analogy fails.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    There is nothing anti-scientific about reasoning "up" to a belief in god or in an immaterial soul. At that level of thought we are just grasping, our feeble attempts at expressing our experience of the world in words come up short, and we try for something that seems to fit best. The problems come with reasoning "down", with taking a belief in god as a solid premise or foundation (my directions are getting confused here sorry). Often people who believe in god have a much firmer grasp of the important truths than atheists. Theologians and religious philosphers on the other hand end up in all kinds of strange places.
    Reminds me of statements by Einstein about wanting to find God working in His garden. He focused on the search for God, not Truth, and his work and reputation suffered. "Playing dice" comes to mind.


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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Reminds me of statements by Einstein about wanting to find God working in His garden. He focused on the search for God, not Truth, and his work and reputation suffered. "Playing dice" comes to mind.
    His reputation also suffered because he wasn't a good Jew - I recall that some American Rabbis complained to him about his statements regarding a non-interventionist God.

    Still, Einstein's God was synonymous with Truth anyway - so he should not be criticised.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Except that foxes aren't wolves - so your analogy fails.
    How does it fail? Icecream Cones are not Tennis Rackets, so your analogy fails.

    Perhaps you completely missed my point or inferred an incorrect analogy, but making random statements and say my analogy fails doesn't cut it.
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  9. #309
    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Are you sure?

    Isn't it just as likely that a near-chicken begat a chicken within a near-chicken egg?

    So that, in fact, it is possible that the first chicken egg was indeed layed by a chicken?
    For the sake of the argument let's assume that protochickens and chickens are identical in all respects except one: protochickens have two heads and chickens have one. If a 2-headed protochicken lays an egg with a 2-headed embryo, then it's a genuine protochicken egg, and the hatchling will be a protochicken. If however, a 2-headed protochicken lays an egg with a 1-headed embryo, that will be a genuine chicken egg, and its hatchling will be a chicken. So, it seems that the egg comes first.
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  10. #310

    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    Perhaps you completely missed my point or inferred an incorrect analogy, but making random statements and say my analogy fails doesn't cut it.
    Yeah, that's my rhetorical defense @PVC, don't steal it.


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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    How does it fail? Icecream Cones are not Tennis Rackets, so your analogy fails.

    Perhaps you completely missed my point or inferred an incorrect analogy, but making random statements and say my analogy fails doesn't cut it.
    I should have been more direct, but I couldn't be bothered.

    Dogs are just wolves, but they are also canines. Foxes are canines too, but they aren't wolves. The reason your analogy fails is that incremental change doesn't adequately explain the difference between species - it can only be explained by sudden mutations.

    Case in point, all mammals have a common ancestor, but we also have different genetic structures, including differing numbers of chromosomes. With foxes and wolves, as with horses and donkeys, the separation between species is not a simple question of genetic divergence, it is a question of profound genetic incompatibility.

    The point being that anything sufficiently like a chicken to fall within your analogy would be a chicken, instead of a not-chicken.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    For the sake of the argument let's assume that protochickens and chickens are identical in all respects except one: protochickens have two heads and chickens have one. If a 2-headed protochicken lays an egg with a 2-headed embryo, then it's a genuine protochicken egg, and the hatchling will be a protochicken. If however, a 2-headed protochicken lays an egg with a 1-headed embryo, that will be a genuine chicken egg, and its hatchling will be a chicken. So, it seems that the egg comes first.

    Moros has already covered this and demonstrated that your argument is too simplistic.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Moros has already covered this and demonstrated that your argument is too simplistic.
    What's wrong with that?
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    What's wrong with that?
    Well, for starters, you can get two-headed chickens.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Well, for starters, you can get two-headed chickens.
    Just as you can say that a regular chicken is a one-headed protochicken. The question is, how do we draw the line between a mutation and a new species?
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Just as you can say that a regular chicken is a one-headed protochicken. The question is, how do we draw the line between a mutation and a new species?
    That's an easy one - if they can't interbreed they're a new species.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    That's an easy one - if they can't interbreed they're a new species.
    Not quite so easy. Homo Sapiens Sapiens could and did successfully interbreed with Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, even though we were two distinct species.
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Not quite so easy. Homo Sapiens Sapiens could and did successfully interbreed with Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis, even though we were two distinct species.
    No, they were two distinct sub-species.

    This is why wolves are now classified as canines rather than lupines, because they can successfully interbreed.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    No, they were two distinct sub-species.

    This is why wolves are now classified as canines rather than lupines, because they can successfully interbreed.
    But the issue remains. You can't jump to being a different species before being a different sub-species. That's the first step on the road to evolutionary separation. So, who's to say that a normal chicken isn't merely a one-headed protochicken, as opposed to being a new sub-species?

    Or to put it another way, we can go all the way back to the first chicken. Its parent had to be a protochicken, otherwise its parent would be classified as the first chicken.
    Last edited by rvg; 09-17-2012 at 20:57.
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    But the issue remains. You can't jump to being a different species before being a different sub-species. That's the first step on the road to evolutionary separation. So, who's to say that a normal chicken isn't merely a one-headed protochicken, as opposed to being a new sub-species?

    Or to put it another way, we can go all the way back to the first chicken. It's parent had to be a protochicken, otherwise its parent would be classified as the first chicken.
    We don't actually fully understand how separate species form - most subspecies are the result of the expression of different variants of the same genes which are already present in the progenitor. So most the genes to create dogs were present in wolves, what we did was selectively breed them so that the offspring had groups of genes that clustered in one direction rather than another.

    This process of selective breeding was just working with what was already there - no matter how hard you tried you couldn't selective breed a fox from a wolf, even if you bred something that looked like a fox.

    So what we call "evolution" is really adaptation, or as some like to call it "micro-evolution", we don't know how you make the jump from proto-mammal to rat-thing to horse and dolphin, but successive micro-jumps don't provide a sufficient explanation, because genetics are self regulating. You can breed a certain level of passivity or immaturity into a wolf to make a dog, but eventually you his a ceiling and they don't get any more passive - sometimes you start getting the opposite effect.

    As to the second point - you are correct, at some point a proto-chicken gave birth to a chicken. But that's not what's up for discussion. The question is whether the first chicken hatched from a true chicken egg, or a proto-chicken egg.

    Essentially, we are debating what makes a chicken egg - which was the original debate. So Pape is wrong, and science hasn't answered the question properly.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Essentially, we are debating what makes a chicken egg - which was the original debate. So Pape is wrong, and science hasn't answered the question properly.
    Wouldn't the chicken embryo be what makes the chicken egg? In other words, if the embryo had one head, then it's a good indicator of a possible new evolutionary path.
    In fact, if in this day an age we could breed a viable 2-headed chicken that would in turn begat a bunch of 2-headed chickens, who could in turn create a self sustainable population of 2-headed chickens, we'd be able to claim a new subspecies.
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    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    I don't think there are any domesticated animals that can't interbreed with their wild counterparts. I was thinking of horses but according to wikipedia they can still interbreed with wild ones. That doesn't prove anything though; thousands of years is a short timeframe.

    As a kid in high school I wondered what the mechanism was not just for mutation, but increase in chromosomes in evolution, since that's one major reason why closely related species can't interbreed. IIRC my teachers (very brief) answer was that it probably was due to viruses messing with a hosts genome and passing it on to descendants. That was before I decided that biology was boring.

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    I think that what really matters is where the mutation (any mutation) occurs at first. In other words, barring external factors (like being hatched on the Three Mile Island) can a chicken acquire a mutation that it lacked as an embryo inside the egg and then pass that mutation on.
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    That mutation would have to occur in the ovaries or testicles to be passed on to descendants; and would require sperm or egg cells specifically from the mutated parts. I think that would be pretty rare, and that mutation of embryos would be far more common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    Wouldn't the chicken embryo be what makes the chicken egg? In other words, if the embryo had one head, then it's a good indicator of a possible new evolutionary path.
    In fact, if in this day an age we could breed a viable 2-headed chicken that would in turn begat a bunch of 2-headed chickens, who could in turn create a self sustainable population of 2-headed chickens, we'd be able to claim a new subspecies.
    What if a chicken egg has a slightly different cell-structure than a non-chicken egg? As noted, the placenta is an amalgam of material from mother and child, so extraordinary it can allow transfer between blood groups.

    How awesome is that?

    So, what does make a "pure" chicken egg?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    I don't think there are any domesticated animals that can't interbreed with their wild counterparts. I was thinking of horses but according to wikipedia they can still interbreed with wild ones. That doesn't prove anything though; thousands of years is a short timeframe.

    As a kid in high school I wondered what the mechanism was not just for mutation, but increase in chromosomes in evolution, since that's one major reason why closely related species can't interbreed. IIRC my teachers (very brief) answer was that it probably was due to viruses messing with a hosts genome and passing it on to descendants. That was before I decided that biology was boring.
    So he didn't know, and to my knowledge nobody else does.

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    I think that what really matters is where the mutation (any mutation) occurs at first. In other words, barring external factors (like being hatched on the Three Mile Island) can a chicken acquire a mutation that it lacked as an embryo inside the egg and then pass that mutation on.
    I believe it can, yes, there's some evidence that genetic change can occur throughout your life through exposure to viruses etc., even starvation can cause changes which are later expressed in grandchildren or great grandchildren.

    Beyond that, you could have a mutation just in your testicle, which would affect your little men.
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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    ...mutation of embryos would be far more common.
    Are you talking about acquiring a mutation while maturing inside the eggshell or already having it by the time the egg drops out of the hen?
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    I believe it can, yes, there's some evidence that genetic change can occur throughout your life through exposure to viruses
    Hold on, do you mean - in the set of all human cells belonging to an individual?

    I feel like I'm reading too much into it, but I have to make sure.

    So, what does make a "pure" chicken egg?
    Eggs do have complex and variegated structures, so I find PVC's consideration of a chicken egg vs. proto-chicken egg to be worthwhile. That said, there's little use in considering it further unless someone manages to dig up legitimate academic speculation informed by paleontology and genetics. If not, best to leave it at:

    perhaps it was a chicken egg containing a proto-chicken, a chicken egg containing a chicken, or a proto-chicken egg containing a chicken. Does the cover all the bases?
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That said, there's little use in considering it further unless someone manages to dig up legitimate academic speculation informed by paleontology and genetics.
    I asked my 7 y.o. about the chicken and the egg. She thought about it, looked at me and said: "Daddy, this is the hardest question EVER!"

    Kids...
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    She's right
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    That mutation would have to occur in the ovaries or testicles to be passed on to descendants; and would require sperm or egg cells specifically from the mutated parts. I think that would be pretty rare, and that mutation of embryos would be far more common.
    An article came out recently about the increased error/mutation rates in human sperm as the father ages.

    The mutation to be multi-generational would have to effect the gene line.

    So this could be an entire being, part of a being including testes/ovaries, divided embryo, an undivided embryo, a sperm or an egg. Occam's razor would favour the later examples as they are simpler to have a consistent effect on.

    Now radiatin can create changes. Viruses are much better as their very mission is to get into a cell and use its machinery to create virus copies. Sometimes these virus copies stick and in the long term ad up to a different species once enough changes have occurred. The most effective way to create sterile offspring is when the chromosome numbers don't match between parents. Virus codes can be found throughout our DNA. Makes sense we have libraries of instructions and viruses come in to do some photocopying, some of the loose leads are left in the libraries books.

    It is believed the ability of placenta to adhere to the uterus wall is from/enhanced by one of these virus mutations occurring.

    Anyhow for a mutation to be multi-generational it has to be within the germline. If a cell mutates say in your chin, it will not create a change in offspring. Now the least complex and most likely (but not only) mutations that are multigenerational occur in those cells that create or are the germline cells ie testes, ovaries, sperm, ova and embryo.

    So it is far more likely that it was an egg first. The odds that a virus or other mutagen created a whole chicken post hatching are much much longer odds.

    Antibiotics need to consider evolution for new strains and egg products can cause allergic reactions in shots... just tying it all back in ;)
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    Pape for global overlord!!
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    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  30. #330
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Aug 2005
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    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!
    Posts
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    Default Re: Vaccines—Who Needs 'Em?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    What if, as we age, there is a biological mechanism that goes something like "Hey, I've had a few good ideas over the course of my exciting life, why not try and pass some on through my sperm?" Thus the higher mutation rate.
    Yes, which makes me wonder, if we had such short lifetimes in the past, is that a viable possibility?


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



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