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Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Are some people actually arguing that British parliamentary system is the only valid/legitimate/democratic system there is?
Not me, I'm just messing with krazelic.Are some people actually arguing that British parliamentary system is the only valid/legitimate/democratic system there is?
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
A lot of countries stole your idea and added variations to it, so you Brits no longer get to decide what a "proper" parliamentary system is
The defining feature is that the executive depends on the willingness of parliament to support it, and that conversely it can be sacked by a vote of no confidence.
That ministers can't have seats in parliament over here is, as you indicated, meant to seperate powers. It's thought that parliament would be a more credible check on the executive if the executive doesn't get a vote.
The defining feature of a parliamentary system is that the parliament is Sovereign - hence the executive is drawn from the parliament, and must be. Otherwise, you would have two Sovereign branches who can oppose each other.A lot of countries stole your idea and added variations to it, so you Brits no longer get to decide what a "proper" parliamentary system is
The defining feature is that the executive depends on the willingness of parliament to support it, and that conversely it can be sacked by a vote of no confidence.
That ministers can't have seats in parliament over here is, as you indicated, meant to seperate powers. It's thought that parliament would be a more credible check on the executive if the executive doesn't get a vote.
Having an elected chamber is a feature of most systems of government - it is not unique to the Parliamentary System.
What is unique is the deliberate lack of Separation of Powers.
Recently, Britain has been infected by European governmental practice via the EU, so that the Lord Chancellor is no longer the highest Judge in the land, we now have a separate and excessively activist "Supreme Court" and the Lords are no longer presided over by the Lord Chancellor, with the result that the last three Lord Chancellors have sat in the Commons, not the Lords.
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Are some people actually arguing that British parliamentary system is the only valid/legitimate/democratic system there is?
No - I'm just arguing that a separate executive is not a "Parliamentary" System.Are some people actually arguing that British parliamentary system is the only valid/legitimate/democratic system there is?
Not according to political science or constitutional theory. According to those, most systems in the world would fall under to one of these catagories:
1. Presidential systems, with an executive President who is completely independant of the legislature
2. Parliamentary systems, where the head of state is either a king or a non-executive president, and where the actual executive must enjoy support from the legislature.
3. Hybrid systems, or "semi-presidential" systems, of which France is the most well known. The ministers are appointed by the president but must also be supported by the assembly.
In Westminster systems the executive is derived from, and has seats in parliament. In other countries like Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands having a seat in parliament is not necessary - and in the case of the Netherlands, not allowed. They still operate as parliamentary systems, regardless.
EDIT:
What does the EU have to do with it?
1. Presidential systems, with an executive President who is completely independant of the legislature
2. Parliamentary systems, where the head of state is either a king or a non-executive president, and where the actual executive must enjoy support from the legislature.
3. Hybrid systems, or "semi-presidential" systems, of which France is the most well known. The ministers are appointed by the president but must also be supported by the assembly.
In Westminster systems the executive is derived from, and has seats in parliament. In other countries like Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands having a seat in parliament is not necessary - and in the case of the Netherlands, not allowed. They still operate as parliamentary systems, regardless.
EDIT:
Originally Posted by :
Recently, Britain has been infected by European governmental practice via the EU, so that the Lord Chancellor is no longer the highest Judge in the land, we now have a separate and excessively activist "Supreme Court" and the Lords are no longer presided over by the Lord Chancellor, with the result that the last three Lord Chancellors have sat in the Commons, not the Lords.
I know about those changes, good stuff. Allthough I suppose people can disagree on that.Recently, Britain has been infected by European governmental practice via the EU, so that the Lord Chancellor is no longer the highest Judge in the land, we now have a separate and excessively activist "Supreme Court" and the Lords are no longer presided over by the Lord Chancellor, with the result that the last three Lord Chancellors have sat in the Commons, not the Lords.
What does the EU have to do with it?
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
Not me, I'm just messing with krazelic.
Which is always a good idea imhoNot me, I'm just messing with krazelic.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
The defining feature of a parliamentary system is that the parliament is Sovereign - hence the executive is drawn from the parliament, and must be. Otherwise, you would have two Sovereign branches who can oppose each other.
I don't know where you got that definition. Wiki: A parliamentary system is a system of democratic government in which the ministers of the Executive Branch derive their legitimacy from and are accountable to a Legislature or parliament; the Executive and Legislative branches are interconnected.The defining feature of a parliamentary system is that the parliament is Sovereign - hence the executive is drawn from the parliament, and must be. Otherwise, you would have two Sovereign branches who can oppose each other.
Whether or not your ministers were members of Parliament doesn't change anything about their accountability to Parliament, or the legitimacy of their government.
Originally Posted by Conradus:
I don't know where you got that definition. Wiki: A parliamentary system is a system of democratic government in which the ministers of the Executive Branch derive their legitimacy from and are accountable to a Legislature or parliament; the Executive and Legislative branches are interconnected.
Whether or not your ministers were members of Parliament doesn't change anything about their accountability to Parliament, or the legitimacy of their government.
We kinda have a problem there don't we. We Dutch can't stop the EUSSR but we will forever hate you.I don't know where you got that definition. Wiki: A parliamentary system is a system of democratic government in which the ministers of the Executive Branch derive their legitimacy from and are accountable to a Legislature or parliament; the Executive and Legislative branches are interconnected.
Whether or not your ministers were members of Parliament doesn't change anything about their accountability to Parliament, or the legitimacy of their government.
Originally Posted by Kralizec:
What does the EU have to do with it?
Do you regard the EU as democratic?What does the EU have to do with it?
Originally Posted by SoFarSoGood:
New EU poster:
Attachment 7455
I count more hammers and sickles and Muslim Crescents than Chritian Crosses...
Sorry, late.New EU poster:
Attachment 7455
I count more hammers and sickles and Muslim Crescents than Chritian Crosses...
When was this poster created? It tickles the Cold War part of my brain and wonder how old it is.
Not sure but this year-ish albeit from some 'private' EU fanclub.
Originally Posted by SoFarSoGood:
Not sure but this year-ish albeit from some 'private' EU fanclub.
Opposed to a 'public' one?Not sure but this year-ish albeit from some 'private' EU fanclub.
Private money I assume but are you suggesting that the EU gives 'grants' to it's cheerleaders? Appalling!
Originally Posted by SoFarSoGood:
Private money I assume but are you suggesting that the EU gives 'grants' to it's cheerleaders? Appalling!
Well, that is what you was insinuating with use of the marks. I was just trying to draw it out from you!Private money I assume but are you suggesting that the EU gives 'grants' to it's cheerleaders? Appalling!
Since you evidently have not checked I can confirm for you that "Europeforall.com was developed, with the support of the European Commission, by the pan-European partnership, OSSATE, which stands for "One-Stop-Shop for Accessible Tourism in Europe"."
Among other rubbish it clearly states that OSSATE (project); "The project is co-funded by the European Commission “eContent” programme." Yes we are paying for this!
See: http://www.europeforall.com/about.se...rsationId=4252 for other madness on 'Photo and Measurement Guides' which Hotels etc are asked/required to use to join some unknown proposed Hotel Guide presumably. Of course this is being done and lunatic posters commissioned (I wonder how much it cost?) while Greeks starve. So good to live off the taxpayers... Happy Days!
Among other rubbish it clearly states that OSSATE (project); "The project is co-funded by the European Commission “eContent” programme." Yes we are paying for this!
See: http://www.europeforall.com/about.se...rsationId=4252 for other madness on 'Photo and Measurement Guides' which Hotels etc are asked/required to use to join some unknown proposed Hotel Guide presumably. Of course this is being done and lunatic posters commissioned (I wonder how much it cost?) while Greeks starve. So good to live off the taxpayers... Happy Days!
Originally Posted by Vladimir:
Sorry, late.
When was this poster created? It tickles the Cold War part of my brain and wonder how old it is.
Late as well, it can't be real but because it is the EUSSR it could be realSorry, late.
When was this poster created? It tickles the Cold War part of my brain and wonder how old it is.
More 'democracy' coming from Berlin: 'Dave' Cameron is threatening to veto an increase in EU spending. So some bright spark in Germany has suggested canceling the meeting so that no veto can be used: "We don't like what you're going to say so no talking". Meanwhile MEPs have approved a 6.8% EU budget increase in 2013. This means that Greece, Spain and Portugal must ALL pay more to the EU while they are cutting their own budgets. You wouldn't believe it if it was in a book or film...
Here's a giggle: When's a carrot not a carrot? When you make jam with it! By Directive 2001/113/EC jam can only be made with fruit so if you make carrot jam the carrot ceases to be a vegetable and becomes a fruit.
Here's a giggle: When's a carrot not a carrot? When you make jam with it! By Directive 2001/113/EC jam can only be made with fruit so if you make carrot jam the carrot ceases to be a vegetable and becomes a fruit.
Originally Posted by SoFarSoGood:
Since you evidently have not checked I can confirm for you that "Europeforall.com was developed, with the support of the European Commission, by the pan-European partnership, OSSATE, which stands for "One-Stop-Shop for Accessible Tourism in Europe"."
Among other rubbish it clearly states that OSSATE (project); "The project is co-funded by the European Commission “eContent” programme." Yes we are paying for this!
See: http://www.europeforall.com/about.se...rsationId=4252 for other madness on 'Photo and Measurement Guides' which Hotels etc are asked/required to use to join some unknown proposed Hotel Guide presumably. Of course this is being done and lunatic posters commissioned (I wonder how much it cost?) while Greeks starve. So good to live off the taxpayers... Happy Days!
europe4all is different to europeforall ...Since you evidently have not checked I can confirm for you that "Europeforall.com was developed, with the support of the European Commission, by the pan-European partnership, OSSATE, which stands for "One-Stop-Shop for Accessible Tourism in Europe"."
Among other rubbish it clearly states that OSSATE (project); "The project is co-funded by the European Commission “eContent” programme." Yes we are paying for this!
See: http://www.europeforall.com/about.se...rsationId=4252 for other madness on 'Photo and Measurement Guides' which Hotels etc are asked/required to use to join some unknown proposed Hotel Guide presumably. Of course this is being done and lunatic posters commissioned (I wonder how much it cost?) while Greeks starve. So good to live off the taxpayers... Happy Days!
europe4all is a political group
europeforall is a tourist site
I have a better giggle for everyone - the Directive on the Cornish Pasty specifies that it should be crimped ONLY on the side, but many traditional recipes are crimped on the top, and they use the harder rye pastry rather than wheat pastry common to the modern pasty.
According to the EU - a traditional Cornish Pasty is not a Cornish Pasty.
According to the EU - a traditional Cornish Pasty is not a Cornish Pasty.
But the joke is on your Cornish pastry makers, because those directives are merely about protectionism for local specialities and they are not drawn up by Brussels on its own: they are submitted/requested by trade organisations. So the purveyors of traditional Cornish pastry have effectively disallowed themselves from marketing their perfectly traditional foods as such ...
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
But the joke is on your Cornish pastry makers, because those directives are merely about protectionism for local specialities and they are not drawn up by Brussels on its own: they are submitted/requested by trade organisations. So the purveyors of traditional Cornish pastry have effectively disallowed themselves from marketing their perfectly traditional foods as such ...
This is not lost on me - but neither is the fact that the EU didn't tell them to take a hike. Someone in Brussels enjoys drawing these things up and enacting them.But the joke is on your Cornish pastry makers, because those directives are merely about protectionism for local specialities and they are not drawn up by Brussels on its own: they are submitted/requested by trade organisations. So the purveyors of traditional Cornish pastry have effectively disallowed themselves from marketing their perfectly traditional foods as such ...
Same category as Spettkaka in Skane (South Sweden)
Or like how Champagne can only come from Champagne.
I prefer Cornish Icecream to pastries anyway, though best Icecream is Bonds which is a locally produced one near here.
Or like how Champagne can only come from Champagne.
I prefer Cornish Icecream to pastries anyway, though best Icecream is Bonds which is a locally produced one near here.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
This is not lost on me - but neither is the fact that the EU didn't tell them to take a hike. Someone in Brussels enjoys drawing these things up and enacting them.
And if the EU did tell them to take said hike, the Cornish would go all "big bad EU trampling over our precious Cornish pastry, no respect for local traditions or values whatsoever!" If the EU were a proper government with proper power as opposed to a bunch of treaties with lots of hyper sensitive toes sensing being trod on then telling to go take that hike could work. As it is, it would merely result in complaint burried in the annual fodder of complains to bring up when something is up for negotiation: "and the EU doesn't recognise our Cornish pastry traditions neither, for shame!"This is not lost on me - but neither is the fact that the EU didn't tell them to take a hike. Someone in Brussels enjoys drawing these things up and enacting them.
You know it would.
Anyway a lot of that stuff is just the various cries of me-too after the big ones (champagne, parma ham) got meaningful protection from (inferior) products out of it.
Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios:
And if the EU did tell them to take said hike, the Cornish would go all "big bad EU trampling over our precious Cornish pastry, no respect for local traditions or values whatsoever!" If the EU were a proper government with proper power as opposed to a bunch of treaties with lots of hyper sensitive toes sensing being trod on then telling to go take that hike could work. As it is, it would merely result in complaint burried in the annual fodder of complains to bring up when something is up for negotiation: "and the EU doesn't recognise our Cornish pastry traditions neither, for shame!"
You know it would.
Anyway a lot of that stuff is just the various cries of me-too after the big ones (champagne, parma ham) got meaningful protection from (inferior) products out of it.
The Cornish winged when a Cornishman tried to carry a Cornish flag over the Tamar during the Olympic torch run and a policeman took it off him.And if the EU did tell them to take said hike, the Cornish would go all "big bad EU trampling over our precious Cornish pastry, no respect for local traditions or values whatsoever!" If the EU were a proper government with proper power as opposed to a bunch of treaties with lots of hyper sensitive toes sensing being trod on then telling to go take that hike could work. As it is, it would merely result in complaint burried in the annual fodder of complains to bring up when something is up for negotiation: "and the EU doesn't recognise our Cornish pastry traditions neither, for shame!"
You know it would.
Anyway a lot of that stuff is just the various cries of me-too after the big ones (champagne, parma ham) got meaningful protection from (inferior) products out of it.
In order for the EU to be a "proper" government it needs popular backing - these medieval ordinances are designed to foster that, but like most else they're counter-productive.
Quite... By their own figures it doesn't work!
More foolishness, the appointment of a white male in the ECB was blocked by the European Parlement because he is a white male, they absolutely crave a female or an immigrant no matter what, es muss sein after all.
Douglas Carswell's Private Member's Bill in the Commons today. He proposes that European Communities Act (1972) should be repealed. UK out of the EU at one fell stroke. He says "Unless the Whips office mount an operation, there is a realistic chance that the prospect of quitting the EU will be debated on the floor of the Commons."
http://www.talkcarswell.com/home/a-b...e-commons/2512
Of course the motion will fail and if I were totaly cynical I might suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that he recently launched a book; 'The End of Politics'.
http://www.talkcarswell.com/home/a-b...e-commons/2512
Of course the motion will fail and if I were totaly cynical I might suggest that it may have something to do with the fact that he recently launched a book; 'The End of Politics'.
Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla:
The Cornish winged when a Cornishman tried to carry a Cornish flag over the Tamar during the Olympic torch run and a policeman took it off him.
Really? What did they do that for? You see loads of Cornish flags here in Devon and I've never seen any bother from it. My guess is that the incident had nothing to do with the flag and everything to do with trying to cause a newsworthy incident.The Cornish winged when a Cornishman tried to carry a Cornish flag over the Tamar during the Olympic torch run and a policeman took it off him.
Originally Posted by Idaho:
Really? What did they do that for? You see loads of Cornish flags here in Devon and I've never seen any bother from it. My guess is that the incident had nothing to do with the flag and everything to do with trying to cause a newsworthy incident.
They did it to make a point - by carrying it across the Tamar, obviously. The Police were having none of it. Cue hysterics.Really? What did they do that for? You see loads of Cornish flags here in Devon and I've never seen any bother from it. My guess is that the incident had nothing to do with the flag and everything to do with trying to cause a newsworthy incident.
While we're on local news: The rai around here, yech, and is it just me is it suddenly a lot colder tonight.
Does the modern county of Cornwall actually correspond geographically to ancient Cornwall/the Cornwall that the nationalists want to be independent, or is it bigger? Would people in Devon be Cornish nationalists?
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