The House of Origin [Concluded]

[Montmorency]

Edit: I just realized that no one had mentioned any of this in-thread. Sorry. Forget about it. That was a bad slip. I'll refrain from participating. Sort it out between GH and Crow.

Question...Why would Lazy have killed Double A, if he knew that in the write-up he would show up as scum?

Why did no one think to ask questions like this concerning Visorslash?

Anyway, it's possible that he tried to team up for appearances and the attempt failed because Khaan's pair-rule is still in effect.

[White_eyes:D]

Anyway, it's possible that he tried to team up for appearances and the attempt failed because Khaan's pair-rule is still in effect.

But they still would have showed up in the kill write-up on Double A....my take on it is that Lazy did it himself and didn't notify anyone, because someone is still scum and he didn't want them to have a free hand.

IF Lazy is scum...he has played an ultra poor hand. He could have just waited for the next lynch phase and he would have been home free...why risk that?

[TinCow]

Question...Why would Lazy have killed Double A, if he knew that in the write-up he would show up as scum?

Did Lazy broadcast his intent to kill Double A somewhere? I haven't seen that.

[White_eyes:D]

Translation: I'm mafia and my "replace me" gambit worked.

I hope you're right

Based on his response to Pizzaguy during the night phase....pretty sure he did vig-kill Double A. Even states in the kill-write up that he was defending the "Emperor" or something like that.

[LazyMcCrow]

I asked GH and Choxorn to protect me on the basis of well - scum Monty's analysis and auto's guidance really. I've been poor town the whole game - most of my hunches ended up with innocents hit instead of scum. So we have left:
Jarema - honestly no idea
GH - scummy as hell
Choxorn - deserves to die for playing the 'I don't know what's going on' card FOR THE ENTIRE GAME
Me - Ultim8 town powerz0R

so - hmm. vote: GeneralHankerchief

come one and all and tell me what I'm doing wrong this time.

[TinCow]

come one and all and tell me what I'm doing wrong this time.

What did you do last night?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Right now I'm torn between Lazy and Choxorn.

This really comes down to which theory you believe. On one hand, khaan's twisted enough to pair a scum role (Lazy) with a power town role (auto), and perhaps Lazy just decided to take a big risk with offing Double A last night and passing it off as a vig effort. On the other hand, a controller role is also right up khaan's alley. This would also go well with Choxorn, who's been lynch/vig bait for basically half the game but has been passed over since there's always been a more immediate issue to deal with.

Full disclosure, my PMs with Lazy the previous night:

Chaps,

The situation is not as perilous as it might be, as that now that my loyal assistant has been murdered, I can vig or protect with 100% effectiveness on my own. I suggest that I'll hit DoubleA while you two protect me. Sound good? Have other ideas? Get back to me either way - and sorry for the delay I've been hitting refresh on this site for the last 8 hours adn its only just come back online.

Orders: I shall kill DoubleA

@Khaan - Please let these orders stand as V1. If GH or Chox get back to me with proposed changes then I might need that extension I asked for in the thread, just to get over the time zone hump.


Lazy

(this was sent to both Chox and myself, from here on out they are between me and Lazy only)

What do you think our efforts should be if the game continues? Choxorn's been lynchbait for a few rounds now; personally, I think he's just as good of an option to kill as Double A, inactivity nonwithstanding. Do you have anything concrete on him either way?

I'm as unsure about you and Jarema as I am about Choxorn and DOubleA. The fact that Choxorn has ridden the 'I don't know what's going on' line for the entire game makes me think that I'd vote for him if the game hasn't ended with Double A's death, but the only reason I unvoted you was on the strength of Auto's posts in defence of you. I've been having to assume that Auto was town from the word go, as a town power role partnered with a mafia to begin with strikes me as incredibly unfair! - Also auto has offered more pro-town analysis than anyone else, but - to reiterate - I'm not 100% about any of you :)

Fair enough. Barring any unforseen developments, you know which direction I'll be looking at most closely if the game continues though.

Vote: Choxorn

For now, but I do need to go back and look over Lazy's posts especially since TinCow(?) made a good point about him being a bit too confident in claiming earlier on.

[Montmorency]

I'm sorry, but I can't resist.

most of my hunches ended up with innocents hit instead of scum.

Most? How can you tell which were scum?

Vote: Choxorn

What happened to trusting Chaotix' judgement?

[GeneralHankerchief]

It's the endgame now, I can't just blindly cross people off.

[TinCow]

So, let me get this straight... Lazy submits orders to kill Double A solo. We see Double A killed solo in the write-up with red text all over it. Lazy himself doesn't even react as if something odd happened to him last night. I understand the whole 'controller' theory that's being sprinkled around recently, but even so please explain to me how this situation can be ignored.

Also... Lazy claims to have been able to kill or protect with his partner all game. And now that his partner is dead he claims to be able to kill solo. Doesn't that sound like the typical group-mafioso role in pretty much every game?

[Visor]

Yeah, Lazy sounds like the best shot.

[Montmorency]

It's the endgame now, I can't just blindly cross people off.

The watcher is blind?

So, let me get this straight... Lazy submits orders to kill Double A solo. We see Double A killed solo in the write-up with red text all over it. Lazy himself doesn't even react as if something odd happened to him last night. I understand the whole 'controller' theory that's being sprinkled around recently, but even so please explain to me how this situation can be ignored.

Eh, the Double A kill had red text because Double A was the red-text killer. Read it again.

[GeneralHankerchief]

@Chaotix never got around to telling me who he looked at on N3 before he died, so it's all conjecture.

Still though, you have a point.

Unvote: Choxorn
Vote: Lazy

Urgh, I just don't feel good about this situation at all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I smell ham.

[Choxorn]

Yeah, Lazy sounds like the best shot.

I agree. Vote: LazyMcCrow

[Andres]

My brain says it's LazyMcCrow.

My gut says it's GeneralHankerchief.

Only time will tell which part of my body is the most intelligent. If it turns out to be GH, then I'm done trying to analyze stuff in mafia games.

[LazyMcCrow]

I killed Double A last night who was the red text killer. I revealed to auto as soon as he replaced my absent starter partner. When my partner dies I can vig or protect with 100% success on my own. Sound like a mafia? Well of course it does - I imagine that Khaan included that ability in my role precisely to make this situation as tense as it is now. In answer to Monty's 'How do you know 'most' weren't scum'? Well I think the only scum I;ve managed to hit have been ATPG (Monty's zombie) and DoubleA, who've I've been suspicious of all game. Right now:
1) I am a Town Power role
2) Despite what I said to GH about voting Choxorn if vigging DoubleA didn't finish it, I still find GH the scummiest - his 'don't know which way to blow' is classic scum tell in the end game - all attention deflected toward anyone but himself
3) Choxorn - If you ARE the scum then you won it by going 'meh' every day - well done
4) Jarema - I still have no idea

My vote stays on GH, as my gut as much as Andres says its him. @Choxorn and Jarema - I hope you will vote GH

[Jarema]

unvote; vote: GH

[LazyMcCrow]

cool - well that's tied it up at 2 for GH and 2 for me. Choxorn - I urge you to reconsider.

[Andres]

'khaan loves to confuse his players and the power roles in his games are usually very ambiguous. Often it turns out that a "power role" is just another mafia faction or a serial killer. That's why I'm inclined to say LazyMcCrow is the remaining scum.

That said, I simply can't shake the feeling that GeneralHankerchief smells fishy and the kill choices smell like him.

[LazyMcCrow]

The main evidence which supports my claim is actually the write-ups. I shall collate my night orders and their results and post them for your scrutiny - I'd also ask GH - indeed all surviving members of the party - to do the same.

[LazyMcCrow]

N1 - Attempt to protect TinCow solo as my partner ‘Thermal’ is AWOL - no write up mention or feedback PM

N2 - Auto and I protect TinCow: Target attacked - protection succeeds

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It wasn’t often I had a hunch this strong. It was one of those things, a gut feeling, but stronger. Hard to describe. I found myself taking this corridor at a strong pace, driven as though by outside forces. Maybe it was fate. Heshin was following, me, keeping up well for someone born a commoner. I took the curving passageway down, and found myself at the doorway of a great library. Normally, I was not one to appreciate literature. One doesn’t reach my position just by being a learned scholar. Still, I couldn’t help but admit that it was an impressive site. The shelves were carved from the marble itself, holding manuscripts beyond counting. My hunch was, well, hunched down, in a corner, pouring over a massive text, his back to us. I sighed. Perhaps my instinct wasn’t correct. Still, it wouldn’t hurt to keep an eye out. I motioned to Heshin to follow me into a corner, and we sat ourselves down, keeping watch.

It didn’t take long for fate to prove my doubts wrong. Perhaps half an hour later, to our left, from the very doorway we had ourselves entered from, came a small gaggle of people. I nudged Heshin, and he nodded. It seemed they had not noticed us, and closed in on the scholar, TinCow. The four withdrew a variety of weapons- one with a club, another a spear, a third, a sword, and fourth, a knife. At that moment, their intentions were clear. TinCow, still buried in his work, did not seem to notice them. I withdrew my saber from its sheath with as clear a ring of authority as I could manage; Heshin followed suit.

“In the name of the Emperor and his divine authority, I order you to halt!” I commanded to the group. The four spun around on a heel, looking visibly panicked. “Move further and I shall attack! Flee now, or forever hold your peace with the creators!” Two of the four managed to regain some measure of composure, and immediately went on the offensive against us! The gall! However, they were little more than poorly trained raff. They lacked discipline, and came at us piecemeal. I dodged the sword wielder’s strike easily, and sliced his hand, not deep enough to cause a grievous wound, but enough that his weapon dropped with a clang. Heshin likewise was able to disarm the spear wielder with a clean, downward hack slicing the spear in two at the haft. Their two compatriots disarmed, the other two fled back. With little more provocation needed, the two aggressors followed suit. I smirked. It wasn’t much of a challenge, but it felt good to be back in action.

N3 Vig White_Eyes :D - success:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

’“Are you sure about this?” Heshin asked me. “You’re certain about this?”

“Of course, my dear Heshin,” I responded. “I do not act without great certainty. We were quite successful last time, were we not?” Heshin nodded. We were looking to reach the old library, on a hunch I had. Sure enough, when we arrived, we found White Eyes pouring over an old scroll. He seemed so engrossed in his work that he did not notice us arrive. I unsheathed my sword, giving off an illustrious ringing noise as it was withdrawn from its holding. White Eyes finally looked up at us in surprise.

“Can I help you, gentlemen?” He asked.

“Yes, you can, White Eyes,” I commanded. “You may sit still, and submit to righteous judgment,” I said, pointing my sword at him. His eyes widened.

“But, my good sirs, I have done nothing wrong! I have been at my work here, trying to discover the mysteries of this incredible place, nothing more!” Heshin looked at me, somewhat questioningly, but he still withdrew his own sword.

“I believe that you are lying. Now, do you accept your judgment, or must we force it upon you?”

White Eyes didn’t respond, instead starting to walk backwards. He tripped over a manuscript on the ground and fell on his back. I stepped forward up to the panicked man. “In his name, I condemn you, White Eyes, for the crime of slaughter!” White Eyes closed his eyes as I ran him through with my blade, following it with a decisive slice upon his neck, rending his head to the floor. Heshin sheathed his sword, clearly looking troubled.

“Do not worry, dear Heshin,” I said, putting a hand on his shoulder. “We fight with just cause. The embrace of the divine will not let us err.”

N4 Vig Capt. Blackadder: Success:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Time was short. The hour of destiny was at hand. I could see from Heshin’s face that he could feel it as well as we traversed the labyrinth. We were currently in the first thing I’d seen yet resembling a residential district. The walls of marble had been carved out into rectangular structures, with vacant rectangles indicating that no actual permanent doors. I was positive that he had come this way… but if the houses had passageways going further in, we would only end up in a deeper maze than we already were in. I sighed. Perhaps we were on the wrong track… Maybe it was the left. Wait! I saw a flash of movement from one of the doorways. Yes!
“There!” I whispered, pointing out our target. Heshin nodded.

“I saw it as well. Dive in?” He asked.

“Follow my lead,” I took off at a pace, withdrawing my sword. I put my back up to the wall, just outside the doorway. I could hear shuffling inside. I gave Heshin a look to indicate I was going in. I turned on a heel sword at attention, ready to charge. Only to be halted…
By sheer surprise. Captain Blackadder was inside, with a large color palette. The far wall was no longer pristine white, but a menagerie of colors, most prominently red. He looked back at us in surprise of his own.

“Oh. Hello.” He gestured to the incomplete mural. “Do you like it?” He asked. I kept my blade at the ready. This was… not right. I would ordinarily hesitate to strike down an artist, but there was something unsettling about this whole scenario. The secrecy, the bright colors. No, I had a mission. Destiny, it was still at hand. I ignored his query.

“Captain Blackadder, for the crime of treason, I sentence you to death.” I said calmly. “Now be still, and accept divine justice.” I raised my sword high and moved forward on a left-leaning arc, while Heshin moved opposite me, to prevent an escape. Captain Blackadder, in either shock or submission, did not move from the spot, and I readied a clean cut through his neck.

N5 Vig ATPG

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It was time yet again for glory! I was running through the endless pathways, sprinting, basking in the liberation from being surrounded by others. My momentum carried me around a corner and I flew into two armed men, tumbling in between them. I managed to tuck myself into a roll and bounced up. The first man was tall, with a confident, fearless demeanor. The other was shorter, and looked alarmed at my appearance. Yes. Him. He needs my instruction. Grinning gleefully, I pulled my knife from my belt.

“Askthepizzaguy,” The confident man began as he unsheathed a pretty, shiny sword. “In the name of our emperor, I pass judgment upon you!” I cackled.

“You cannot pass judgment upon me, not until you have judged yourselves! Conquer your fear, revel in the bliss of its absence, and then you may judge me!”

The man grinned. His partner, Autolycus, still looked unsure. My chance! I leaped forward, and they both tried to cut me down. Autolycus, obviously hindered by his fear, missed me completely, while the other man sliced a deep gash into my side as I was in mid-air. A wound was nothing! I collided into Autolycus, and rammed my knife into his chest. I stabbed him again and again, not even feeling it when the other man rammed his sword straight into my back. I slammed my blade into Autolycus’ throat. His face, the fear. It was plastered across. Such a pitiable man, fearing the embrace of death. My lesson… it failed. I let my arms fall to my side, and I looked to the other man, grinning once more.

“You will join him soon. Do you fear the caress of death?” I asked. Fury stoked his eyes as he raised his sword high with both hands. I bellowed with laughter once more, at last, the world went black…

And N7 we finally struck gold and killed DoubleA (see last night write up)

I'd be interested to see what GH comes up with - as well as the other two. By my reckoning Jarema has to be town, or he'd be voting for me, so in my mind it has to be one of the other two.

[autolycus]

Unless Double A could do two attack actions at once, the red text must come from an external controller since he was seen participating in vigs the previous night (do the math, since Visorslash said he was blocked). Monty could do his ability and an attack, it makes more sense that the controller is the same way than that Double A could do two attacks. I'm not feeling great about Lazy, but there is no question in my mind that the red text is still out there. If Lazy is scum, there are two separate scum left, and town actually needs to lynch innocent and hope that the scum kill each other tonight.

So, if you think Lazy is scum, vote whoever you think is less scummy of choxorn and GH(I'm pretty sure Jarrema's innocent, and we want to make it easy on Lazy who to kill)
If not, vote whoever you think is scummier of choxorn and GH.

Also, @GH, what makes you think I was a power role? The writeups pretty clearly make me the sidekick.

[autolycus]

Wait, why are we crossing off Jarrema? His "inactivity" the night of Buddhafish's death doesn't prove anything if we're dealing with a controller.

[TinCow]

Eh, the Double A kill had red text because Double A was the red-text killer. Read it again.

Thanks, I missed that. On re-read I agree with the theory that Double A was being controlled in some fashion by the red text. The source of the red text is not identified.

I'm not feeling great about Lazy, but there is no question in my mind that the red text is still out there. If Lazy is scum, there are two separate scum left, and town actually needs to lynch innocent and hope that the scum kill each other tonight.

So, if you think Lazy is scum, vote whoever you think is less scummy of choxorn and GH(I'm pretty sure Jarrema's innocent, and we want to make it easy on Lazy who to kill)
If not, vote whoever you think is scummier of choxorn and GH.

Surely Lazy himself could be the controller. Monty claims to have been able to do two actions in a single night (block and group action). We have to assume the remaining scum can do that as well. You're not going to be able to solve this by simply checking off night action boxes. We have to assume that there is only one scum left, which also means that the town loses if it lynches incorrectly today.

For the record, if it's not Lazy, my money would be on GH. I can see arguments in favor of the others, but GH has been playing a pretty low-key game while still being active the whole time. I fully expect that GH with a controller-type role would try to do exactly that. At the same time, we've got an admitted killer who's been killing for a fair amount of the game. To Lazy's credit, the write-ups show him going on about divinity and the Emperor and whatnot, which seems consistent with the narration we're getting from the Emperor himself. There's got to be at least one pro-town role in this game, so his claim is plausible.

A tough choice, glad I don't have to make it. Whoever the final mafioso is has done a good job to make the choice so difficult at this phase. Hats off to you, whoever you are.

[Montmorency]

Gentlemen:

For the record, if it's not Lazy, my money would be on GH. I can see arguments in favor of the others, but GH has been playing a pretty low-key game while still being active the whole time. I fully expect that GH with a controller-type role would try to do exactly that. At the same time, we've got an admitted killer who's been killing for a fair amount of the game. To Lazy's credit, the write-ups show him going on about divinity and the Emperor and whatnot, which seems consistent with the narration we're getting from the Emperor himself. There's got to be at least one pro-town role in this game, so his claim is plausible.

For your consideration:

1. We knew from the get-go that there would be two town power roles. One of them was Chaotix. I am not aware of another claim besides his - and Crow's.

2. Crow is not the only one who claimed early.As mentioned multiple times previously, GH has claimed a handicap that makes him very unreliable at group actions. He revealed this to me just as it was becoming clear that I would be engaging in a spot of late-game networking.

3. It is still unclear whether the third person at the Makrell protection (other two being myself and Ishmael) was GH or Double A. GH claims thus - to have solo protected me for kicks, because he "was tired of doing nothing".

There are very strong implications emanating from these points. If the third can be convincingly argued in his favor, then it conclusively clears him. In the meanwhile, it looks to me that GH is either a very audacious BS artist, or Choxorn has indeed been sliding by. Crow seems clear any which way. Everything adds up for him, it really does.

[TinCow]

GH has claimed a handicap that makes him very unreliable at group actions.

I had forgotten about this. As far as I can tell, this isn't a game where townies get random attributes to make them more interesting. I don't think 'khaan has ever done that and I haven't heard any claims of such a set-up here, other than from GH. This indicates to me that GH has a non-townie role. That tips the scales for me. Lynch GH.

And, for all his protestations, this remains eyebrow raising:

Just a warning, my activity will be limited this weekend.

How can you be so sure the game won't be over after 'khaan posts his write-up?

[LazyMcCrow]

To grab the obvious carrot being dangled there:
Has Choxorn been sliding by? - Yes
Is GH a very audacious BS artist? -
lynch one and if its the wrong one - Vig the other one.

[Montmorency]

I'm willing to bet it on Crow. As a killer, he can take down Choxorn (or Jarema, if Chaotix' plea is good enough for us) tonight. If by any means he does turn out to be scum, then I'd count it a game played well. But it seems like the town's last best hope and potential failsafe.

By the way, in case anyone's worried - all of that stuff in my previous post had been stated elsewhere in thread already. I was just recapitulating. For reference, see:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053491733
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053491853
and Khaan's master post (Post #1)

[Riedquat]

I agree with the others deceased here, GH is more suspicious by action while Choxorn is by inaction, lynch GH now!!