When did American society become so feminized?

[rvg]

Yes, the fact that women in many modern societies are preferring 'cute boys' over real men proves exactly how feminine society has become...

If that's the criteria, then the worst days are behind us. Don't you remember the '80s?

[Vuk]

You are not helping yourself here...

You just don't have enough hair on your chest to understand that real men use chapstick. That is ok though, I forgive you.

Great point, did you tell your wife that her behavior is comparable to a disease, too?

Comparing one thing to another does not mean that you think they are at all similar. In fact, one of the points here was to show just the opposite.
You did not address the major point I made though that just because something has been slanted one way in the past does not mean that it needs to be slanted in the other direction now.
In fact, I reject the notion that the traditional meaning of 'femininity' is at all 'natural' to the female sex. It is the result of oppression and repression, and is not at all healthy for society and should be rejected by both sexes.

Yes, because everybody loved muscular women the last time we discussed the topic, right?
Also this protection is only required because of other men. Tell me how often men historicall needed their strength to protect their family from women. The truth is they had to protect their families from other strong men or died trying. Strength is easily abused just like other forms of power.

Who is talking about muscular women? We are talking about attitude and belief systems, not muscles.
And no, this protection is not required only because of other men. Internally, if you had a society of just women, you would an enormous amount of woman on woman crime. The major reason you have so little now is A) it is a lot harder for a woman to mug a man than another woman and B) because most women have protection from some sort of men (whether that is a family member, boyfriend, the police, or just a bystander). If there were no men in a society, you would see woman on woman crime sky-rocket.
You don't see a lot more crime amongst men because they act in a masculine manner. You see more crime among men because they are more capable of committing crimes and think they are more able to get away with them.
Look at the single most hyper feminine country in the world, South Korea that has been stripped of every vestige of masculinity and you will find they have double the violent crime rate that the United States does.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/85740/...united-states/
And as far as protecting a country or your family from other strong men, that is unavoidable. There will always be strong men inside and esp outside even the most feminine society, and the more feminine your society is, the more you will be sheep to the wolves.
Again though, you are associated violent criminals with physical strength with the western idea of masculinity. That is a fallacy. The correlation between sex and these behaviors is the result of society, and are not genetically determined. It is only a myth that 'masculinity' is a thing of men. It is an independent and responsible way of thinking and acting that historically been associated with one sex, but is ideal for both. Femininity is a passive, dependent way of thinking that looks to make other people or institutions your protector and provider, and is the result of millennia of oppression. It is not at all a healthy world view for men or women. Unfortunately it is the way modern societies are going...

[Vuk]

If that's the criteria, then the worst days are behind us. Don't you remember the '80s?

Ever hear of Justin Beiber? lol
You are right though of course, that thankfully in many parts of this country (mine being one of them...thank goodness) that is not true. But esp in very feminine societies such as Japan, SK, and some European countries that is the reality. I'm lucky enough to live in a more 'traditional', 'masculine', rural area where women still prefer real men. In places like Japan though, overwhelmingly women think that men having any kind of muscle is barbaric and unattractive.

[Fragony]

You are single, right

[ReluctantSamurai]

Raw justice:

http://rawjustice.com/2010/09/13/12-...-in-real-life/

So the next time you Shogun fanatics are heading downtown after a heated session of gaming........leave the katana in the car, please!

....and make sure granny has had her meds before showing up for the holiday dinner......

[Ironside]

Yes, the fact that women in many modern societies are preferring 'cute boys' over real men proves exactly how feminine society has become. No matter how feminine men become, women are still going to mostly prefer men over other women. That doesn't make the feminine men who get women hyper-masculine.

Yes they are going to prefer men. I did not know that you considered Leonardo di Caprio, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt girly. They still started their careers as cute boys (cute is severly associated with youth for both genders btw) and their movie star predessors are quite a bit older. For overkill, the "latin lover" Rudolph Valentino born 1895 actually does look quite a bit feminine (he's the first really big movie star).

But I mean you remember the old days, before preferring 'cute boys' over real men was the standard. Before the feminine society sneaked in. I must say that I'm honoured that we have such venerable members on this forum. Is it the moisturizer that keeps you so fresh?

The Hofstede definition you posted is extremely flawed at best, and does not mesh with the common understanding of the word 'masculine'.

The common understanding that only you are fully following? Really, the concepts have a very hard time to survive moving outside your country because a lot of it are constructs. So trying to find a more universial terms are going to make them vague.

[Vuk]

The common understanding that only you are fully following? Really, the concepts have a very hard time to survive moving outside your country because a lot of it are constructs. So trying to find a more universial terms are going to make them vague.

There is no universal definition. Each definition is unique to locale and culture. When you try to make a definition that fits all, it contradicts most and does not represent any.

[Vuk]

Possibly of fear of the gay (oh my God, I found that guy slightly attractive, that can totally not happen).

lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.

[Papewaio]

Yes they are going to prefer men. I did not know that you considered Leonardo di Caprio, Matt Damon, Brad Pitt girly. They still started their careers as cute boys (cute is severly associated with youth for both genders btw) and their movie star predessors are quite a bit older. For overkill, the "latin lover" Rudolph Valentino born 1895 actually does look quite a bit feminine (he's the first really big movie star).

Plenty of suspicions about Valentino.

[Montmorency]

lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.

There's a difference between considering another man handsome or 'good-looking' and considering him as a desirable sexual partner.

I seriously doubt you are overcome with nausea or disgust, or even total ambivalence, whenever you look at any other male's face.

I'm sure you find some men better-looking than others. From there, it isn't much of a leap to judge one man or another particularly good-looking.

Similarly, it is not unusual for a straight male to consider some females to be 'good-looking', even if not sexually attractive or desirable.

Get it?

[HoreTore]

lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.

The gay is strong in this one, Obi-Wan.

[Vuk]

There's a difference between considering another man handsome or 'good-looking' and considering him as a desirable sexual partner.

I seriously doubt you are overcome with nausea or disgust, or even total ambivalence, whenever you look at any other male's face.

I'm sure you find some men better-looking than others. From there, it isn't much of a leap to judge one man or another particularly good-looking.

Similarly, it is not unusual for a straight male to consider some females to be 'good-looking', even if not sexually attractive or desirable.

Get it?

There is a difference between thinking something is good looking and being attracted toward it. Dogs can be handsome, but that doesn't make them attractive. Horses can look noble and majestic, but that doesn't mean you are attracted to them. Likewise you can see and dude and recognize that he is handsome (like what people think when they look at me ) without being attracted to him. If you are attracted toward another dude, then you are gay. Period.

[Papewaio]

Anyhow what one considers gender roles is heavily dependent on the family/community/country one grows up in.

One mans foppish trait is another ones toolset is another mans weapon.

[a completely inoffensive name]

There is a difference between thinking something is good looking and being attracted toward it. Dogs can be handsome, but that doesn't make them attractive. Horses can look noble and majestic, but that doesn't mean you are attracted to them. Likewise you can see and dude and recognize that he is handsome (like what people think when they look at me ) without being attracted to him. If you are attracted toward another dude, then you are gay. Period.

Difference between mental attraction and physical attraction dude.

Just because certain male members on this board could coax drunk ACIN into a night of passion doesn't make me gay. If I wanted to commit to a relationship and found myself attracted to the individuals personality despite differing political, religious views, THEN I would be gay. But I am not the latter. So I'm not gay.

[Fragony]

It isn't really gay if it's your clone

[Ironside]

There is no universal definition. Each definition is unique to locale and culture. When you try to make a definition that fits all, it contradicts most and does not represent any.

Ever hear of Justin Beiber? lol
You are right though of course, that thankfully in many parts of this country (mine being one of them...thank goodness) that is not true. But esp in very feminine societies such as Japan, SK, and some European countries that is the reality. I'm lucky enough to live in a more 'traditional', 'masculine', rural area where women still prefer real men. In places like Japan though, overwhelmingly women think that men having any kind of muscle is barbaric and unattractive.

Ahem. Which was a bit of my point of you using a very encompassing term to describe a local phenomena.

lmao mate! Sorry, but if you find guys attractive, then you are at least bi.

Witch are a demonstration of the "fear of the gay" I mentioned. From what you say, if you look at a hot drag queen thinking it's a girl, get attracted to him and then told it's a guy, then you're gay, since you did find a guy attractive. For a less gotcha version, you've got androgynous people, looking girly on one picture and boyish on the next. Are you gay if you find those attractive?

Now personally, it's quite a bit of downer if it turns out to be a guy, even if it's only picture, putting me fairly far into the hetrosexual camp.

But if you're running on that very harsh measurements (like you comparing human beauty to animal beauty or landscape beauty for that matter) and don't want to see yourself as gay in any way (since you don't feel like you are one, or are in denial about it), you then need to make sure to eliminate anything even close to be gender confusing and therefore pushing the muscular "super manly man".

Now, I don't know how driving that one is, but the muscle mountain is touted more nowadays than it used to for some reason.

[Fragony]

I am not attracted to guys, but I can see it when a guy is handsome. Friend of mine is rediculously pretty, the attention he gets from women drives him nuts, not just him, us as well. We jokingly call him the Gebronste Adonis, hinting at his perfectly tanned skin. Poor guy has no place to hide.

[Andres]

This thread is actually about the legal concept of liability and how distorted it has become. That's a discussion worth having.

That's an interesting point.

Why do companies have such regulations? Why do you sometimes read the most absurd things in manuals?

Could it have something to do with silly lawsuits and deranged judges making the most weird judgements?

Has there perhaps been a precedent of a company being liable because one of their co-workers stabbed somebody while the company didn't have a policy that said you need to keep knives out of the building?

Maybe it is not feminization that caused this company to decide to implement such a silly rule. Maybe, there's just something wrong with your legal system?

[HoreTore]

I don't think you can blame the extreme growth in company legal departments to customers alone. I'd say the majority comes from the business culture of different companies trying to screw each other over all the time, using the law as a weapon.

[Husar]

That's an interesting point.

Why do companies have such regulations? Why do you sometimes read the most absurd things in manuals?

Could it have something to do with silly lawsuits and deranged judges making the most weird judgements?

Has there perhaps been a precedent of a company being liable because one of their co-workers stabbed somebody while the company didn't have a policy that said you need to keep knives out of the building?

Maybe it is not feminization that caused this company to decide to implement such a silly rule. Maybe, there's just something wrong with your legal system?

It's because people have become more selfish and tend to turn more and more things into what they perceive as their rights.
As a result, low wage employees turn into the personal slaves of the customers, marriages fail because people can't be bothered to find any fault with themselves, compromise goes out of the window everywhere and kids are being taught they should always only look out for themselves because others will do the same and those who don't will go under. The problem is that society doesn't work that way. If everybody behaves like a masculine man and ruthlessly takes what he or she wants, it only fosters conflict. The only thing that prevents it from being too obvious is that people are incredibly fake and hide their real intentions all too often.

There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.

[Andres]

It's because people have become more selfish and tend to turn more and more things into what they perceive as their rights.
As a result, low wage employees turn into the personal slaves of the customers, marriages fail because people can't be bothered to find any fault with themselves, compromise goes out of the window everywhere and kids are being taught they should always only look out for themselves because others will do the same and those who don't will go under. The problem is that society doesn't work that way. If everybody behaves like a masculine man and ruthlessly takes what he or she wants, it only fosters conflict. The only thing that prevents it from being too obvious is that people are incredibly fake and hide their real intentions all too often.

There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.

So, you're saying the American society is a very masculine one?

This either means you are very girly or Vuk is a super masculine male.

Anyway, I'm glad you're not blaming the lawyers.

[ReluctantSamurai]

There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.

The current American Congress is a perfect example of this.......

[Vuk]

It's because people have become more selfish and tend to turn more and more things into what they perceive as their rights.
As a result, low wage employees turn into the personal slaves of the customers, marriages fail because people can't be bothered to find any fault with themselves, compromise goes out of the window everywhere and kids are being taught they should always only look out for themselves because others will do the same and those who don't will go under. The problem is that society doesn't work that way. If everybody behaves like a masculine man and ruthlessly takes what he or she wants, it only fosters conflict. The only thing that prevents it from being too obvious is that people are incredibly fake and hide their real intentions all too often.

There's less voluntary cooperation and more rivalry and it's promoted by the few who profit from it and supported by those who believe they are masculine winners.

You basically describe highschool girl rivalry and then call it masculine! lol
Selfish behavior is unfortunately becoming more common, but it is neither masculine nor feminine. Currently it is worse amongst women (esp young ones) than men, but it has not always been that way and now men seem to be catching up. Selfishness has always existed in cultures most masculine and feminine. About your post early though about how men cause the violence in society and how there would be none if women ruled: here is a good example that humans are cruel and violent, regardless of sex.

EDIT: In fact mate, selfish behavior is contrary to both traditional ideas of masculinity and femininity! Maybe not in our growing gang culture, but at least where I live ideas of masculinity are tied up in ideas of chivalry, and femininity in defined very much in terms of lady-like behavior. Both discourage the type of behavior you are talking about, which has always ran contrary to the ideals of gender expectations.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

lol, they don't consider general utility to be a proper reason to carry one? Laws like that are such rubbish. There are so many things that are equally and more deadly that they do not ban (and realistically could not), so they are hardly going to stop anyone with bad intentions. All they do is create inconveniences for law abiding citizens.
I actually found out after I already got back home that the knife I carried in Hungary was illegal there. I guess the idea of pocket knives being illegal just never occurred to me. I was stopped by the police twice too (I was walking back to my apartment late at night), but thankfully they laughed and left me alone as soon as they found out I was American, so I was never arrested for carrying a pocket knife. :P

I used to carry a knife on the farm - since I started living in the city the only bits I use are the screwdriver and the bottle opener, and that's inside the house.

This is, general utility is​ a valid reason, but in the age where libraries will issue you a pen or a pencil sharpener, you almost never need one.

[Vuk]

I used to carry a knife on the farm - since I started living in the city the only bits I use are the screwdriver and the bottle opener, and that's inside the house.

This is, general utility is​ a valid reason, but in the age where libraries will issue you a pen or a pencil sharpener, you almost never need one.

Sure you still do. Opening plastic packages, cutting tape, cutting boxes, cutting loose threads off your clothing, prying stuff (sure, it is not good for your knife, but some times you have no alternative), etc, etc. You would not believe the amount of times I have needed a knife for things I never could have predicted I would use a pocket knife for. It is like a flash-light (something I always keep on my belt except when I am going to job interviews), one of those essential things that even if you use rarely you need there for those important times when nothing else will suffice.

[Montmorency]

All this could also have everything to do with the urbanization of society - the "fear", the "feminization", the compartmentalization of tool use...

[Vuk]

All this could also have everything to do with the urbanization of society - the "fear", the "feminization", the compartmentalization of tool use...

I don't know. Two of my brothers are currently working in a big cheese plant as they are going back to school for a second major, and they carry a folding knife and two multi-tools with them everywhere (including at work where they have had need of them). You need tools like that whether working on a farm or in a factory.

[Montmorency]

Beyond industry...

[Vuk]

Mate, I used my folding knife all the time when I was working at Arbys to open packages, break-down boxes, etc.
It is a pretty useful tool for tons of different jobs and just for everyday life when not on the job.

[Montmorency]

Using tools on the job and carrying the same around in public - there's a difference, no? Do you see it?