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Poll: Which candidate would you vote for?
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    Thread: Turkish Presidential Elections of 2014: Erdoğan victorious from the 1st round.
    Fragony 06:57 08-15-2014
    I wouldn't say definatily not, there are enough experts with more than enough gravitas that do make the link between arab nationalism and islamism, and basicly see it as the same thing; islamism being a political ideoligy being disguised by a religion, in the end it's all about power.

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    HoreTore 10:27 08-15-2014
    Originally Posted by Fragony:
    I wouldn't say definatily not, there are enough experts with more than enough gravitas that do make the link between arab nationalism and islamism, and basicly see it as the same thing; islamism being a political ideoligy being disguised by a religion, in the end it's all about power.
    No, that would not make any sense at all.

    It's basically like saying communism and capitalism is the same because it's all about money. No expert would ever say islamism and arab nationalism to be the same movement.


    You could say that Islamism is also nationalist, but that's a completely different thing to saying arab nationalism and islamism is the same. Nationalism is a general idea, while arab nationalism refers to a very specific political movement.

    But even with that distinction, I would still find it very silly to call Islamism nationalist, since I see it as very clearly internationalist. Chauvinist (in the marxist sense) fits much, much better.

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    Fragony 17:53 08-15-2014
    I am not saying it, just saying that others are saying it. It aren't the least respepected, Gilles Kepel for example.

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    HoreTore 17:56 08-15-2014
    Originally Posted by Fragony:
    I am not saying it, just saying that others are saying it. It aren't the least respepected, Gilles Kepel for example.
    Post a linky. I have a slight feeling you've mixed up some terms.

    There's no way in hell a political scientist is going to claim that Saddam and Khomeini represent the same movement.

    Edit: Gilles Kepel makes a clear distinction between arab nationalism and Islamism, by explaining the rise of the latter by the failures of the former.

    Originally Posted by Kepel:
    The first phase, from September 1970 to 1 February 1979 is the formative one. In the Arab world, the first date epitomises the demise of Arab nationalism, coinciding with the death of Nasser and civil war in Jordan. This opened a huge window of opportunity for an alternative ideology.
    (my emphasis)

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    Fragony 17:58 08-15-2014
    Originally Posted by HoreTore:
    Post a linky. I have a slight feeling you've mixed up some terms.

    There's no way in hell a political scientist is going to claim that Saddam and Khomeini represent the same movement.
    http://books.google.nl/books/about/J...oC&redir_esc=y

    Pretty good read, get latest edition if you want to read, adds a few chapters

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    HoreTore 18:03 08-15-2014
    Originally Posted by Fragony:
    http://books.google.nl/books/about/J...oC&redir_esc=y

    Pretty good read, get latest edition if you want to read, adds a few chapters
    Reading his article about this book(excerpt in my edit above) explains things wonderfully: you've misunderstood.

    Reply
    Fragony 18:06 08-15-2014
    Originally Posted by HoreTore:
    Reading his article about this book(excerpt in my edit above) explains things wonderfully: you've misunderstood.
    No I didn't, it never says it's the same, only that it's connected.

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