Ukraine Thread

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Anybody else notice how Putin said they wouldn't "suddenly" attack NATO?

Also, unlike the West, Russians feel it is entirely appropriate to lie through your teeth in politics.

[Brenus]

"Also, unlike the West, Russians feel it is entirely appropriate to lie through your teeth in politics." WMD in Iraq? Bringing Democracy in Balkans (remember Jamie Shea and the horse shoes operation?)? Liberation of Women in Afghanistan? Iraq is a better place now? Saudi Arabia potentially elected as Human Right President? Closing Guantanamo Bay? Ignoring Referendum (EU one)? That is a lot of Russian politician in USA & EU politics!

"As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see)" You are not very convincing. Each time you come back with good reasons to explain why it was not entirely the Nazis fault to slaughter, you know, "well, sure the killing of Polish population is due to historical factors due to the fact that they are Polish and Polish are from Poland, so surely it was a good reason enough to kill them based on the fact they were Polish" kind of explanation, which are very convincing.

"Everybody lies, yet here we speak of the leader of a nuclear state who violates his nation's promises" Do you mean like a signed treaty reassuring that Kosovo is part of Serbia?

"Or do you think Western allies or Soviet troops committed no atrocities in liberated lands or in Germany?" The Soviets did (Kathyn (Sp) as we know) and as well a massive rape campaign (but to be fair, the Yugoslav complain about it and they were allied with the Russians), but I failed to have German, Italian, Hungarian or other Germans Allies villages rounded-up and burned alive in their Churches, house, warehouses or lined-up to be executed with a bullet in the head, and organising a pictures competition (the winner in the Nazi side was the guy killing the mother with her baby in her arm with ONE bullet!).

"Stigmatizing people without a valid reason and explanation" Not a stigmatisation, an explanation, ...dude. You admitted yourself, as a Ukrainian you are not impartial (don't remember the exact wording you used). And to be delusional is how I qualify your analyse on Putin and Ukrainian crisis. Nothing about your person... I explained each time why and when.

"Whom do you have in mind when talking about Nazis, Brenus" All openly Nazi. You see, I have no sympathy for this movement, whatever the nationality of the followers, Russians, French, Ukrainian, Norwegian or US. And in all this debate, the ones not following blindly NATO/EU/US propaganda are labelled a Putin's friends (as illustrated once again by Gilrandir who then complain about personal attack). All my political opinion is against Putin's political stance, from the Anti-Gay, pro-religious and lands annexation (I can prolong the list). In fact, as Ukraine is banning the Gay Parade in Kiev (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22648210), the actual Kiev Government is probably closer to Putin than I am.
"No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote." There are no openly Fascist nor Nazi Party is France. It is banned by law as to wear Nazi insignia or Uniform (with few exception i.e. in movies making). The danger is still there, but again, 2 MP... It Le Pen comes to power, and if she get a Parliament, she will still have to change the Constitution to create a Fascist State. We had this before in France, and, well, the Fascists failed. We had a demonstration of more than 4 millions in the street to defend freedom against religious fanatics murderers. so we will defeat Fascism as we did in the past. It would be a great help if EU started to be democratic, but we will mange without.

[Gilrandir]

Do you really expect me to quantify something like that? Like say 36.47% overall influence? Seriously? You're not trolling, you're being serious here?

I learned your teachings well, oh Exalted Master. You said that this is a place for serious debates, and that I should corroborate my statements with proofs.

What if I now claim that among the separatists there is a disproportionally large number of Russian and European nazis? You would surely demand proofs and receiving an answer like you gave you would again stick on my forehead the label of a sensationalist liar.

I won't do this regarding your claims. But until I see proofs, I wouldn't buy them.
All you can claim without doubt is that there were far rightists among the Maidaners and that they became especially conspicuous after the conflict grew really violent (the second half of February). The other claim (about their disproportional numbers) is arbitrary and questionable.

It is a figure of speech. It is not meant to be taken literally. Surely some disagreed, some were injured or sick, some went home, some just abhorred violence, some supported it but were to cowardly... It doesn't mean EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. It means a majority, a very large number of them

You go by stereotypes (deliberately or accidentally echoing those of Russian mass media):
1. All people/students from Western Ukraine are nationalists.
2. All of these nationalists are nazis/far-rightists.
3. All of them went to Maidan.
4. Maidan consisted solely of people from Western Ukraine.
All stereotypes tend to generalize conlusions made on a limited data thus are not true. What if I claim that all Muslims are terrorists or all blacks in the USA are athletes, entertainers or gangsters? Would it be true?

It seems to me that you are the one here who is vehemently against such generalizations. Well, perhaps, I am wrong. Or things change and in discussions (measured, serious and sober, mind you) you resort to such methods.

Aaaaaaand thank you!!! We have a winner! Give the man a cigar!

Precisely my point. And you knew that from the beginning and you could have just agreed with me two posts ago and save us this trouble.

Perhaps your memory cheats you, but I never claimed the opposite. At the same time I paid your attention that Madian consisted of people from ALL OVER UKRAINE. If you find where I claimed the opposite, I will share your "joy and pleasure" (cited after Brenus 2015, post 784 in the current thread).

So what? Nothing in the part after the first comma makes him special.

So what's the use of quoting him? You might as well leave a blank space after "Putin said that".

"As I have said many times (and which Brenus refuses to see)" You are not very convincing. Each time you come back with good reasons to explain why it was not entirely the Nazis fault to slaughter, you know, "well, sure the killing of Polish population is due to historical factors due to the fact that they are Polish and Polish are from Poland, so surely it was a good reason enough to kill them based on the fact they were Polish" kind of explanation, which are very convincing.

First of all, UPA were not nazis. Your sources call them collaborationists.
Second of all, I denounced the Volyn massacre.
Third af all, if you think that the convincing power of these statements is abated by claims that atrocities were abundant at the time of the war, it is your problem.

"Or do you think Western allies or Soviet troops committed no atrocities in liberated lands or in Germany?" The Soviets did (Kathyn (Sp) as we know) and as well a massive rape campaign (but to be fair, the Yugoslav complain about it and they were allied with the Russians), but I failed to have German, Italian, Hungarian or other Germans Allies villages rounded-up and burned alive in their Churches, house, warehouses or lined-up to be executed with a bullet in the head, and organising a pictures competition (the winner in the Nazi side was the guy killing the mother with her baby in her arm with ONE bullet!).

As I have said, a distant relative of mine (he was the husband of my grandmother's sister, died a decade ago) told me stories of the behavior of Soviet liberators abroad, which are different from the canonized ones. And, on the other hand, my mother told me about German occupation (although being only 4-6 years old back then) and she can't remember any maltreatment or misconduct by soldiers billeted in their house. So speaking about the unpleasant subject of atrocities one can't be guided by official sources only since not all of such cases found their way there.
Of course, the Nazi's scale of atrocities was much greater, yet there is no denying the fact that all belligerents didn't fight in white gloves.

"Stigmatizing people without a valid reason and explanation" Not a stigmatisation, an explanation, ...dude. You admitted yourself, as a Ukrainian you are not impartial (don't remember the exact wording you used). And to be delusional is how I qualify your analyse on Putin and Ukrainian crisis. Nothing about your person... I explained each time why and when.

So, to your mind, being not impartial=nationalist?
Then I have the full right to use your logics: claiming that Russia is not involved in Donbas conflict=Putin's supporter.

And in all this debate, the ones not following blindly NATO/EU/US propaganda are labelled a Putin's friends.

You humiliate others by denying them critical thinking while believing your stance to be sober and balanced. Others do the same and think you are "blindly following" Russian propaganda. So the whole discussion has turned into implicit recriminations (whatever Sarmatian may say about the seriousness of the debate here).

In fact, as Ukraine is banning the Gay Parade in Kiev (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22648210), the actual Kiev Government is probably closer to Putin than I am.

Again a lie (as it was the case with the Communist ban). The march WAS HELD and PROTECTED BY THE KYIV POLICE from those who attacked it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0YS07R20150606

"No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote." There are no openly Fascist nor Nazi Party is France. It is banned by law

The same in Ukraine and, I believe, in all countries. So, logically, those who you consider Ukraininan nazis are not.

We had a demonstration of more than 4 millions in the street to defend freedom against religious fanatics murderers.

What a verve! You believe that freedom is defended by marching and chanting slogans? Then why does France spend more on security measures? It could just take people into the streets every time something like CH happens.

[Husar]

So what's the use of quoting him? You might as well leave a blank space after "Putin said that".

The same use as quoting Merkel, Obama or any journalist on the issue.
The greeks have plenty of evidence that Merkel is like Hitler by the way.

[Gilrandir]

This is pathetic:
http://en.glavnoe.ua/news/n229277

[Husar]

This is pathetic:
http://en.glavnoe.ua/news/n229277

The automatic translation is really pathetic, I am not sure what it is trying to tell me.
To link to a biased Ukrainian source is just as pathetic, it's a deeply divided partisan country where both sides use propaganda to the max.

[Gilrandir]

The automatic translation is really pathetic, I am not sure what it is trying to tell me.
To link to a biased Ukrainian source is just as pathetic, it's a deeply divided partisan country where both sides use propaganda to the max.

This source quotes LIFENEWS, which can be called a biased Russian source.
The gist of the information (by Lifenews): Gubarev as well as other 15 people were detained in one of the high-rise bulidings in Donetsk because they started to shoot with a sniper rifle at a DNR military base near by.
There is a footage:
http://lifenews.ru/news/155318

[Husar]

Anybody else notice how Putin said they wouldn't "suddenly" attack NATO?

Also, unlike the West, Russians feel it is entirely appropriate to lie through your teeth in politics.

More nonsense without supporting facts?

[GenosseGeneral]

"Whom do you have in mind when talking about Nazis, Brenus" All openly Nazi. You see, I have no sympathy for this movement, whatever the nationality of the followers, Russians, French, Ukrainian, Norwegian or US. And in all this debate, the ones not following blindly NATO/EU/US propaganda are labelled a Putin's friends (as illustrated once again by Gilrandir who then complain about personal attack). All my political opinion is against Putin's political stance, from the Anti-Gay, pro-religious and lands annexation (I can prolong the list). In fact, as Ukraine is banning the Gay Parade in Kiev (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22648210), the actual Kiev Government is probably closer to Putin than I am.
"No one here calls France a fascist state, although the Front National has won more of the vote." There are no openly Fascist nor Nazi Party is France. It is banned by law as to wear Nazi insignia or Uniform (with few exception i.e. in movies making). The danger is still there, but again, 2 MP... It Le Pen comes to power, and if she get a Parliament, she will still have to change the Constitution to create a Fascist State. We had this before in France, and, well, the Fascists failed. We had a demonstration of more than 4 millions in the street to defend freedom against religious fanatics murderers. so we will defeat Fascism as we did in the past. It would be a great help if EU started to be democratic, but we will mange without.

The article you linked is from 2 years ago - when non-fascist Yanukovich was still in power. There was one, however, last week, I actually posted an article about it above, and it was attacked by right wingers, yet the police protected it. In other words, it did what you expect from a democratic state: protecting a minority's rights. And before you decry how this again shows Ukraine's naziness - unfortunately, homophobia is a problem in all Eastern European societies, whether it be Serbia, Poland or Russia. The Russian case is only in so far special, as that the government does nothing to protect LBGT people against it, quite on the contrary, it follows the majority's opinion and pushes minorities into hiding.

You see, then there is also fairly little reason to call the current government of Ukraine "nazi" or "fascist", as you continue to do. Ukrainians clearly voted against nationalist parties. There are some positions in the political discourse which are more nationalist than what we are used to in Western Europe, but again, this is a phenomena observed in many Eastern European states such as Poland, the Baltic states or Russia. Did you know that Zhirinovsky's LDPR holds actually quite a number of seats in the Russian Duma? And trust me, that party's positions are about as Nazi as those of Svoboda in 2010, they only avoid the Swastikas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDPR_%...tical_party%29
Correct me if I am wrong, Gilrandir, but from what I know, the Rada has recently passed a law prohibiting both Nazi and Soviet symbols as signs of totalitarianism.

[Gilrandir]

And before you decry how this again shows Ukraine's naziness - unfortunately, homophobia is a problem in all Eastern European societies, whether it be Serbia, Poland or Russia.

The public order in a country is determined not by the existence of criminals, but by the ability of the authorities to neutralize them.

Correct me if I am wrong, Gilrandir, but from what I know, the Rada has recently passed a law prohibiting both Nazi and Soviet symbols as signs of totalitarianism.

I would gladly confirm it, but if I do, some people are sure to call it propaganda or bias. If someone is interested, he may find the law, read it and make his own conclusions. I don't doubt what conclusions Brenus would make, though.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

More nonsense without supporting facts?

No - Putin's words, or rather thair translation said "suddenly invade". We would be crazy to think Russia would "suddenly invade" a NATO country like the Baltics.

Also, the Russians actually have a word for strategic lying in international politics, there was an article about it on the BBC - they consider it a craft and are very open about it.

So, Western leaders will try for "plausible deniability" and "nuances" of the truth. The Russians will just lie and set up more lies to support it, making it impossible to get to the truth.

So - for example - if NATO don't want to acknowledge tanks massing in Poland they will refuse to talk about it, if Russia doesn't want to talk about it's tanks in Ukraine it will deny they are there, then it will report they are in the North near Finland on exercises, or it will hold actual exercises in Russia to distract from the tanks in Ukraine, or it will say there are only "volunteers" in Russia.

See the difference?

[Brenus]

"Again a lie" Complain to BBC.

[Husar]

See the difference?

Yes, the difference is that one lies at first and comes out with the truth later and is quite upfront about it while others hide behind euphemisms for the word lie and try to do so ad infinitum. Neither of them do actually act very differently however.

Also a relevant link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonath...b_2624620.html

Powell played an intercept of a conversation between Iraqi army officers about the UN inspections. However, when he translated what they were saying, he knowingly embellished it, turning it from evidence Iraq was complying with U.N. resolutions to evidence Iraq was violating them.

So trustworthy, it almost moves me to tears.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, the difference is that one lies at first and comes out with the truth later and is quite upfront about it while others hide behind euphemisms for the word lie and try to do so ad infinitum. Neither of them do actually act very differently however.

Also a relevant link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonath...b_2624620.html



So trustworthy, it almost moves me to tears.

And we never stop talking about Iraq, do we?

Russians will only tell the truth when it benefits them, otherwise they will lie, Western politicians will avoid lying because if they get caught they'll probably have to resign their position. That means you can sift Western leaders' statements for something close to the truth, where you have to assume the Russians are lying.

The point about this is that Russian politicians will, therefore, assume the West is lying just as much as they are, so when the West says it wants to partner with Russia and has no interest in encircling and confining Russia the assumption is that that is a lie, the West wants something else.

Basically, whatever you tell Putin he assumes you're lying because he's lying, so he'll act on his perception of the situation and not what you tell him; this helps to explain why he invaded Ukraine. The West wanted Ukraine as a bridge to Russia, geographically and culturally (like the UK is a bridge between the US and Europe) and told Russia so. Russia concluded from this that the West wanted Ukraine to join NATO, therefore when a pro-Western government supplanted a pro-Russian one during the crisis last year this was seen as something engineered by Western leaders specifically to drive a wedge between Ukraine and Russia, despite everything the West had said.

So Putin ordered an invasion to counter what he was as NATO aggression.

[Husar]

And we never stop talking about Iraq, do we?

If I bring up something older you will probably tell me that it's outdated again and the newest lies have not been exposed yet, so yeah, Iraq it is. I'm sorry that I cannot bring up any western lies you would enjoy reading about.

As for western leaders having to step down over lies, eh, first of all name one.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If I bring up something older you will probably tell me that it's outdated again and the newest lies have not been exposed yet, so yeah, Iraq it is. I'm sorry that I cannot bring up any western lies you would enjoy reading about.

As for western leaders having to step down over lies, eh, first of all name one.

Uh, not I meant we never stop talking about Iraq because we know they lied.

Both Bush and Blair have been made mud by it.

As to Western Leaders lying and resigning after being caught...

Watergate?

Also - every British politician who has resigned, ever?

[Gilrandir]

"Again a lie" Complain to BBC.

When you doubt anything I post or link, it is all about bias, unrealiability and propaganda-mongering.
When your sources lie, it is just
Quod licet Jovi, non licet bovi?

As for western leaders having to step down over lies, eh, first of all name one.

B. Clinton almost did it. Almost. Well, many wanted him to.


Why am I not surprised?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2b8_1433894594