Ukraine Thread

[Fragony]

As it seems right now the M17 was shot down by Ukraine (no offence intended to Ukrainian members), but M17 seems to have been guided over hostile territory. Ukraine says the radar-stations were down, all? The Americans have the satelite-images nobody asked for here in the Netherlands, this is getting odd.

Allow me to be cynical, is the lives of over 200 innocent people worth less than an association treaty? Not looking at you Ukraine I am sure it was a mistake if it was you, just curious what really happened. Wouldn't call it a friend but someone I know (hardly) died there There were jets, there were high altitude weapon systems.

[Sarmatian]

This might be something new.

Dutch investigation a few months ago blamed Kiev in a sense that Ukraine should have closed the area off for civilian airlines, but couldn't prove who fired the missile.

[Gilrandir]

As it seems right now the M17 was shot down by Ukraine (no offence intended to Ukrainian members), but M17 seems to have been guided over hostile territory. Ukraine says the radar-stations were down, all? The Americans have the satelite-images nobody asked for here in the Netherlands, this is getting odd.

Allow me to be cynical, is the lives of over 200 innocent people worth less than an association treaty? Not looking at you Ukraine I am sure it was a mistake if it was you, just curious what really happened. Wouldn't call it a friend but someone I know (hardly) died there There were jets, there were high altitude weapon systems.

The source, please.

[Fragony]

The source, please.

Can't do right now sorry, there is nothing credible to post. nothing is clear at ths moment. 'looks like' is not the same thing as 'it is', I walk carefully when something could be big. You can probably find most on google, I am not going to say anything at the moment. A few things stand out, the Dutch government never asked for the info the Americans were more than willing to share, and the nature of the damage (exit damage, not impact)

[Fragony]

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
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You shall not pass?

[Gilrandir]

You can probably find most on google, I am not going to say anything at the moment.

Google? Brenus would have flagellated you. It is even worse than social media reliance.

Anyway, blaming Ukraine has a false premise at the outset since Ukraine didn't need any anti-jet facilities as the separatists didn't (and still don't) have any planes at their disposal and Russia was too clever to openly use planes because such facts of involvement could never be denied.

On a second thought, I guess Russia would come up with an explanation or other if such cases were spotted.

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
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You shall not pass?

Didn't dare to open the link as it asked me in Dutch to do something. One can't be too wary.

[Fragony]

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

[Gilrandir]

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

What's cookies?

[Husar]

Don't worry it's safe, Dutch law dictates that it should be mentioned if a website uses cookies

Not just dutch: https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/

[Sarmatian]

Anyway, blaming Ukraine has a false premise at the outset since Ukraine didn't need any anti-jet facilities as the separatists didn't (and still don't) have any planes at their disposal and Russia was too clever to openly use planes because such facts of involvement could never be denied.

It is impossible to say who fired the missile with certainty. It is more likely that the rebels did it, but I'm pretty sure it was mistake whoever did it.

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

[Fragony]

I don't care who did it, mistakes happen. Can't say the Dutch government is very interested though, lots of myst here. America supposedly has the intell but to their amazement nobody asked for it.

Edit, I'll narrow it down for you a bit. Dutch government has the images of an area of 400 square km, America has much more precise images, 1 square kilometer. Nobody ever asked for these. Forensic evidence suggest that the plane was shot from behind because the front has exit-damage, not impact damage. Minister of justice-department has zero to say, he says the justice department told him they have enough, but there is no correspodance. Krazilec is the jurist so he might have to correct me, but I don't think the justice-department has a role in the international arena

[Gilrandir]

Overall, the blame is on Ukraine because it didn't close that area off for civilian air traffic, regardless of who fired the actual missile.

Who could have doubted that Ukraine is to blame.

First of all, IIRC other companies redirected their flight routes without waiting for anyone to tell them to do that. Only Malaysian airways didn't.
Second of all Ukraine didn't know the separatists had received from Russia weapons able to reach the altitude passenger planes fly at.

[Gilrandir]

Not making any claims because I simply don't understand everything, but first video on top http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments
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You shall not pass?

Can't hear what the guy says. No sound somehow.

[Fragony]

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments should work, has nothing to do with that plane though

upper video, it's French but not hard to understand