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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #61
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rexit-tensions

    Police in the territory known as the Rock, which is home to 32,000 people, tweeted: “All those driving toward Spain should expect long delays.” Gibraltar’s government earlier posted on Twitter that vehicles faced two-hour lines to cross into Spain.


    Neither Spain’s interior ministry nor the national police responded to AFP’s requests to confirm that border measures had been tightened.
    This is legal terrorism - make life unpleasant for the people of Gibraltar because they refuse to accept Spanish rule. It's despicable.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  2. #62
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rexit-tensions

    This is legal terrorism - make life unpleasant for the people of Gibraltar because they refuse to accept Spanish rule. It's despicable.
    I disagree with the use of "terrorism" for something that isn't terror-inducing or life-threatening. I agree that they are being needlessly unpleasant. It is clearly punitive and, I believe, petulant as well.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  3. #63

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...rexit-tensions



    This is legal terrorism - make life unpleasant for the people of Gibraltar because they refuse to accept Spanish rule. It's despicable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I disagree with the use of "terrorism" for something that isn't terror-inducing or life-threatening. I agree that they are being needlessly unpleasant. It is clearly punitive and, I believe, petulant as well.
    Hello, political violence. :)
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  4. #64
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Self-Determination is THE argument for sovereignty in the UK, there isn't really any other. The tenacity with which the UK holds to that argument has its roots in the Falklands War, a war we did not want to fight and which was very costly relative to the number of citizens and the territory at risk. This is why the UK can sometimes sound very bellicose, it's not a desire for war in the slightest, it's a fear that our resolve will be underestimated and we'll have to fight another war we can ill afford to protect our Overseas Territories. The view is then further informed by the bitter taste we have from freely handing Hong Kong back to China largely against the desires of the Hong Kong Chinese. A lot of Brits, myself included, feel at least partly responsible for what has happened since despite recognising that we couldn't keep Hong Kong without the New Territories and would not have been able to negotiate a new lease with the PRC.

    So, you'd beter bloody believe we'll defend Gibraltar, Bermuda etc. to the hilt
    To be honest. I am not sure i buy this. Based on multiple threads. Your posts seem to advocate war any time there is even slight possibility to it.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  5. #65
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Probably not, but people tend to prefer status quo if there are no obvious and/or immediate benefits.
    ... or immediate threats (whether real or imagined).

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    or, we could have calais back.
    Put in Anjou and Aquitaine as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    People should accept the past and look forward. Hell Finland lost Karelia and Petsamo to Soviet Union during WW2, with them the second largest city at the time in Finland, Viborg, with half a million refugees from those areas relocating to areas that remained.
    It was a piece of luck for Suomi. Look at the state Russia is in and compare it to your country's. Some people here would call it a small price to pay for your current life.
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  6. #66
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Spain and Italy playing important is my favorite part of western politics. Like a couple of hairy dwarves running around ones feet.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  7. #67
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Spain and Italy playing important is my favorite part of western politics. Like a couple of hairy dwarves running around ones feet.
    Joke as much as you want but Italy still could probably take on Ethiopia and win.

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  8. #68
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Italy even has its own arms industry to some extent. And I'm not talking about some sidearms but tanks, light tanks and helicopters.

    Granted, they're not well-known for this internationally, but compared to the wooden mockups high-tech military inventions Iran always presents to the world....

    I think the guns from OTO Melara can be found on quite a few naval vessels. Like this one, being used on the famous Oliver Hazard Perry class of the USN, among many other ships worldwide.

    And don't forget fashion and food!
    Last edited by Husar; 04-06-2017 at 15:34.


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  9. #69
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Spain and Italy playing important is my favorite part of western politics. Like a couple of hairy dwarves running around ones feet.
    You have a way with imagery you do.

    Maybe not 'poetic' but certainly you do paint a picture.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  10. #70
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    To be honest. I am not sure i buy this. Based on multiple threads. Your posts seem to advocate war any time there is even slight possibility to it.
    Do they?

    War against Assad in Syria, yes. I stand by that given the recent chemical attack.

    War against Spain or another country not currently killing its own people? No.

    Military action is a tool of Diplomacy to be used in the absence of other effective tools. That does not make its use in any way desirable because it incurs the greatest material and moral cost to the society that wages it.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  11. #71
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Italy even has its own arms industry to some extent. And I'm not talking about some sidearms but tanks, light tanks and helicopters.

    Granted, they're not well-known for this internationally, but compared to the wooden mockups high-tech military inventions Iran always presents to the world....

    I think the guns from OTO Melara can be found on quite a few naval vessels. Like this one, being used on the famous Oliver Hazard Perry class of the USN, among many other ships worldwide.

    And don't forget fashion and food!
    Italy has always produced some good hardware. It's the frightening incompetence of the general staff that sinks them. its interesting that Italy never really had a formative war before the Great War to formulate its military bureaucracy. Germany adopted the Prussian model and solidified it after 1871. America solidified its after the civil war. Italy didn't do anything and reaps what it sowed a century ago to this day (as do the other countries). That's my working theory.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  12. #72
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Do they?

    War against Assad in Syria, yes. I stand by that given the recent chemical attack.

    War against Spain or another country not currently killing its own people? No.

    Military action is a tool of Diplomacy to be used in the absence of other effective tools. That does not make its use in any way desirable because it incurs the greatest material and moral cost to the society that wages it.
    I am talking about earlier discussions like the inevitability of major war with Putin´s Russia. And your wish for "real" war with Islamist´s. If i miss read you as very hawkish, then my apologies for misunderstanding your stance on several issues.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  13. #73
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Italy has always produced some good hardware. It's the frightening incompetence of the general staff that sinks them. its interesting that Italy never really had a formative war before the Great War to formulate its military bureaucracy. Germany adopted the Prussian model and solidified it after 1871. America solidified its after the civil war. Italy didn't do anything and reaps what it sowed a century ago to this day (as do the other countries). That's my working theory.
    Yeah.Not that they have been part in compatible NATO command structure for decades, thus their C&C very similar to all the other NATO commands (Which is kind of the point of NATO). Third major contributor after USA and UK in peacekeeping operations since 1980. In current missions they have been in charge of ISAF regional command West at Herat province Afghanistan since the start of the campaign.

    I guess WW2 just doesnt let go of them...
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  14. #74
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    I am talking about earlier discussions like the inevitability of major war with Putin´s Russia. And your wish for "real" war with Islamist´s. If i miss read you as very hawkish, then my apologies for misunderstanding your stance on several issues.
    OK, well I can address both of those.

    As regards Putin - I consider that war becomes more likely the longer Putin is in power and the more leeway we give him. However, as I recall I said that several years ago and since then the US and the EU has remained surprisingly stalwart in enforcing sanctions that hurt Russia's economy and military capacity so war may not be "inevitable".

    As regards the Islamists, I was at pains to make the point that a "real" war was preferable to the current situation where we are, as a society, on a war footing but with no enemy we can really fight. It should go without saying that not being on a war-footing is infinitely preferable than status quo or fighting an actual war.

    Despite me trying to explain this a number of times several posters insisted on wilfully misinterpreting my statements as a "quasi-Fascist" call to war for the sake of the nation's soul.

    I can only repeat myself so many times before I give up.
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  15. #75

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    As regards the Islamists, I was at pains to make the point that a "real" war was preferable to the current situation where we are, as a society, on a war footing but with no enemy we can really fight. It should go without saying that not being on a war-footing is infinitely preferable than status quo or fighting an actual war.
    But note the distinction between 'prefer the other thing over this one'
    and
    'from this situation to other (i.e. toward "real war") would resolve extant ill effects'.

    That's why you have to be more precise.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  16. #76
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    But note the distinction between 'prefer the other thing over this one'
    and
    'from this situation to other (i.e. toward "real war") would resolve extant ill effects'.

    That's why you have to be more precise.
    Except I never said that, you just inferred it, and unreasonably I would say.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  17. #77

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I wish I were Gilrandir in this moment.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  18. #78
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I wish I were Gilrandir in this moment.
    I wish you would stop being so obtuse, though really the disease seems to be spreading throughout the Backroom.

    Why, prey tell, do you wish you were Gilrandir in that moment?
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  19. #79
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Yeah.Not that they have been part in compatible NATO command structure for decades, thus their C&C very similar to all the other NATO commands (Which is kind of the point of NATO). Third major contributor after USA and UK in peacekeeping operations since 1980. In current missions they have been in charge of ISAF regional command West at Herat province Afghanistan since the start of the campaign.

    I guess WW2 just doesnt let go of them...
    My brain was on the world wars because of Sarmatains comment. I don't think there is something inherently broken about Italian manpower. I think there is (or was) something broken about their general staff. Which, as you point out, is null now because the NATO command structure is US based.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  20. #80
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post

    Why, prey tell, do you wish you were Gilrandir in that moment?
    Having an Elvish name is what everybody wishes to enjoy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  21. #81
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian
    Quote Originally Posted by furunculus
    or, we could have calais back.

    self determination either means something, or it does not. spain needs to figure out which way to fall on the issue.
    Husar's support of Spain over Gibraltar is based on wanting to screw Britain over, nothing more.

    It's 90% pulling British legs, one of my favourite pastimes given how easy it is. The other 10% are revenge for the Brexit vote and generally being island whiners.
    Is that what you imagine you are doing? Okay... ;)
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  22. #82
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Italy has always produced some good hardware. It's the frightening incompetence of the general staff that sinks them. its interesting that Italy never really had a formative war before the Great War to formulate its military bureaucracy.
    ...and that's why Venice is still part of Austria.
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  23. #83
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    or, we could have calais back..
    Well, we would say France never really fully recognise English Independance. So, as Richard failed to find a buyer for London, perhaps it is time for UK to come back under the French rules...

    Dieu et mon Droit, Honni soit qui mal y Pense...
    Last edited by Brenus; 04-08-2017 at 17:07.
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    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
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  24. #84
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Well, we would say France never really fully recognise English Independance. So, as Richard failed to find a buyer for London, perhaps it is time for UK to come back under the French rules...

    Dieu et mon Droit, Honni soit qui mal y Pense...
    I've always found it worth a chuckle that Richard I "Lionheart" gets all of the "good guy" image in Robin Hood pictures -- but historically is known to have spoken French and Occitan, but not much if any English and may well have spent fewer than six months in England during the entirety of his life. One of the great "English" kings....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  25. #85

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Well I hope this possibility comes to pass:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39510351

    The embrace of Scotland within the Canadian fold would bring the colonizer legacy full circle
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  26. #86
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I've always found it worth a chuckle that Richard I "Lionheart" gets all of the "good guy" image in Robin Hood pictures -- but historically is known to have spoken French and Occitan, but not much if any English and may well have spent fewer than six months in England during the entirety of his life. One of the great "English" kings....
    He was a king. Disagree with the other two adjectives though. His father was a far better king for England (saying to his illegitimate son, who stuck with him, "You're the only one of my sons who's not a bastard". IIRC Henry V was the first king to really identify himself as English.

  27. #87
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    Well I hope this possibility comes to pass:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39510351

    The embrace of Scotland within the Canadian fold would bring the colonizer legacy full circle
    Or the beggining of the reverse-reintegration of the empire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    He was a king. Disagree with the other two adjectives though. His father was a far better king for England (saying to his illegitimate son, who stuck with him, "You're the only one of my sons who's not a bastard". IIRC Henry V was the first king to really identify himself as English.
    Richard was undoubtedly a great king, he displayed all the bravery, chivalry, leadership and piety expected of his position. Well, the last one is a bit debatable as he seems to have sometimes sought "alternative companionship" whilst on campaign. Despite that apparent weakness, however, Richard was undoubtedly a great warrior-king. His attitude to England in this context is understandable - unlike his possessions on the Continent or Outremer England was stable and essentially safe. If England had been constantly menaced by the Scots or Norse I imagine he would have spent more time there.

    As to Henry V being the first "English" King since the Conquest that's essentially Tudor propaganda. The Plantagenet Kings were native English speakers from at least Edward III and possibly from the time of Edward II. At the court of Richard II English prose and verse was as popular as Anglo-Norman French.
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  28. #88
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I've always found it worth a chuckle that Richard I "Lionheart" gets all of the "good guy" image in Robin Hood pictures -- but historically is known to have spoken French and Occitan, but not much if any English and may well have spent fewer than six months in England during the entirety of his life. One of the great "English" kings....

    He had a good PR manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post

    Despite that apparent weakness, however, Richard was undoubtedly a great warrior-king.
    According to Steven Runciman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_History_of_the_Crusades), Richard was a great warrior, but a bad king.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  29. #89
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I've always found it worth a chuckle that Richard I "Lionheart" gets all of the "good guy" image in Robin Hood pictures -- but historically is known to have spoken French and Occitan, but not much if any English and may well have spent fewer than six months in England during the entirety of his life. One of the great "English" kings....
    That is History for you. I wrote my Degree in History about it, how media (in this case books, series and movies) shapes the representation of yourself as Nation. We have a similar case in France. Thanks to Alexandre Dumas and his 3 Musketeers, the Cardinal de Richelieu, one probably of the top 5 great French politicians, is always the bad guy...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  30. #90
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Apr 2003
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    French kings are bad by default get over it

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