UK General Election 2017

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes, let's become an actual vassal of the US, totally dependent on them for our security. Like the rest of the EU and France.

We need to keep our American maintained nuclear weapons in order to maintain some independence from America?

I disagree, quite frankly we follow American policy where other EU states don't because we want to anyway.

[LittleGrizzly]

Well, it isn't Labour, it is the random person who did the poster. But yes, it is in relation to Balfour declaration and British Governments decision recently not to apologise to Palestine over it. Some on the left are up in arms over Israel like you can see with Idaho's posts, but I don't think it is attacking Jewish people per say, it is just an unfortunate trope that Israel=All Jews which leads to things looking like that. Gets more complicated when people hijack the trope to attack Jewish people too, they are the some of the worst.

Isn't the Israeli flag the star of david?

Obviously that could also be conflated with all Jewish people rather than just Israel but you can understand the confusion both ways

Any criticism of Israel unless done super carefully is always going to come back to anti Semitism anyone working on any kind of promotional material should understand that. Unfortunately its not like when Corbyn and the left were even more strongly protesting Apartheid South Africa as now supporters of the ones carrying out injustice can claim racism is the reason they are not liked rather than their misdeeds

[LittleGrizzly]

Corbyn is pro-Brexit as well. Moreso than May.

That was a reference to May messing up and saying tourism instead of terrorism, it was in response to your Diane Abbot says something stupid video....

Although like I said in the previous post, politicians saying stupid things is entertaining but it is all about the policies for me really....

[Fragony]

That was a reference to May messing up and saying tourism instead of terrorism, it was in response to your Diane Abbot says something stupid video....

Although like I said in the previous post, politicians saying stupid things is entertaining but it is all about the policies for me really....

I saw it, she directly said we have been too tolerant, was cut out here but the internet never forgets nothing. I got all uncut tapes for ya

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, it isn't Labour, it is the random person who did the poster. But yes, it is in relation to Balfour declaration and British Governments decision recently not to apologise to Palestine over it. Some on the left are up in arms over Israel like you can see with Idaho's posts, but I don't think it is attacking Jewish people per say, it is just an unfortunate trope that Israel=All Jews which leads to things looking like that. Gets more complicated when people hijack the trope to attack Jewish people too, they are the some of the worst.

Fair comment. I have garnered that @Idaho is pretty staunchly anti-Zionist, but I never heard him comment on the religion at all. I'd guess he probably has the usual agnostic/atheist disdain for formal Judaism, but no more or less so than for any other organized religion.

We have that trope at play on this side of the pond as well. Were they free of political history and influence of blocs of voters in key states, our heart of our political left would (if they could) cut off more or less all support for Israel and take a solid pro-Palestinian stance. Most on the political right here are supportive of Israel, but we our right wing also has a strong isolationist/"a pox on both their houses" contingent.

The pro-Israel lobby is well leveraged and politically savvy though, and wield a lot of influence for their size in the halls of Congress and a couple of very influential statehouses. And they DO sometimes play that same trope to advantage.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

@Beskar

Yes...

Not like we are actually paying the USA for Trident and they hold the keys for it, or anything. Given how it also runs Windows XP, only death it would bring would be a blue screen.

Except...

The USA doesnt hold the keys to our nukes, they sold us the delivery system but have no control over our weaponry.

We also do not use windows XP on Trident subs but a robust custom retooling of the system, the actual missiles arent controlled by these systems.

Greyblades is correct. Your support of Corbyn has reached such a level you are no longer debating anything - you've just become an election mouthpiece.

[LittleGrizzly]

This is probably just a petty point either way... but wouldn't a customised version of Windows XP still be windows XP.... albeit a customised version...?

Also I would argue given we rely on America to maintain our nuclear weapons that they do hold some control over them, enough to use the phrase hold the keys maybe not but to pretend its completely independent would be equally false.

We partially rely on America for our nuclear weapons.

[Pannonian]

Fair comment. I have garnered that @Idaho is pretty staunchly anti-Zionist, but I never heard him comment on the religion at all. I'd guess he probably has the usual agnostic/atheist disdain for formal Judaism, but no more or less so than for any other organized religion.

We have that trope at play on this side of the pond as well. Were they free of political history and influence of blocs of voters in key states, our heart of our political left would (if they could) cut off more or less all support for Israel and take a solid pro-Palestinian stance. Most on the political right here are supportive of Israel, but we our right wing also has a strong isolationist/"a pox on both their houses" contingent.

The pro-Israel lobby is well leveraged and politically savvy though, and wield a lot of influence for their size in the halls of Congress and a couple of very influential statehouses. And they DO sometimes play that same trope to advantage.

You have to know the language of anti-semitism on the left to recognise the signs. It's about media conspiracies and evil bankers, often in the same package. The Chakrabarti report actually comments on this. Ironically, on the day of the release of said report on anti-semitism in the Labour party, one of Corbyn's longstanding friends (since the 70s) confronted the attending Jewish Labour MP with exactly these accusations, showing how these tropes are not only current in the Labour party, but are especially so among Corbyn's core support. And when said MP went to Corbyn to complain about it, Corbyn backed his friend.

[Beskar]

Greyblades is correct. Your support of Corbyn has reached such a level you are no longer debating anything - you've just become an election mouthpiece.

1) I don't support Corbyn. Funnily, to recognise the bias and argue against it doesn't actually mean you are supporting someone. It is simply pointing and arguing against unfair coverage. It isn't as if he is a complete clown like Donald Trump where it is actually justified though it is also countered by the very pro-Trump voices of Fox which itself argues provides the news for 50% of Americans (chiefly republicans) compared to the British media where no one is supporting Corbyn. Corbyn has more similarities to Bernie Sanders than Trump when it comes to media in this regard. I have already voted in this election and I voted tactically for a candidate I didn't want, simply because it wasn't the worse alternative. It is a shame with our terrible election system that it has descended to this, and why I have always advocated alternatives such as STV.

2) LittleGrizzly just replied expanding what I was saying. Unfortunately, Greyblades' first link does not work as it points to the XP article.. which says the submarines use a modified version of Windows XP. Customised or not, it is still a Microsoft Windows product and if there an error, it would indeed give a blue screen. As for America holding the keys.. it supplies, repairs and maintains Trident. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there were backdoor or covert access to the submarines as well, but that is a different point entirely, as the basic fact we are paying America for our nuclear weapons does mean they hold the keys as if they said no, we would start to quickly get screwed over because we do not have the infrastructure presently to do it ourselves.

[LittleGrizzly]

In regards to Corbyn himself he even more passionately protested White led Apartheid South Africa who are certainly comparable, I would suggest he is either racist to both Jewish and White people or just really doesn't like our support of injustice. Only the latter really seems logical.

I can't speak for every single person Corbyn ever talked with or interacted with but he has taken action where It has come up in the Labour party where he can. Unsurprisingly though with any criticism of Israel comes a barrage of racism claims, whereas supporting the death and occupation of Muslims (or the opposite side at least) is somehow okay, clever PR certainly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Not like we are actually paying the USA for Trident and they hold the keys for it, or anything. Given how it also runs Windows XP, only death it would bring would be a blue screen.

The USA doesnt hold the keys to our nukes, they sold us the delivery system but have no control over our weaponry.

We also do not use windows XP on Trident subs but a robust custom retooling of the system, the actual missiles arent controlled by these systems.

1) I don't support Corbyn. Funnily, to recognise the bias and argue against it doesn't actually mean you are supporting someone. It is simply pointing and arguing against unfair coverage. It isn't as if he is a complete clown like Donald Trump where it is actually justified though it is also countered by the very pro-Trump voices of Fox which itself argues provides the news for 50% of Americans (chiefly republicans) compared to the British media where no one is supporting Corbyn. Corbyn has more similarities to Bernie Sanders than Trump when it comes to media in this regard. I have already voted in this election and I voted tactically for a candidate I didn't want, simply because it wasn't the worse alternative. It is a shame with our terrible election system that it has descended to this, and why I have always advocated alternatives such as STV.

2) LittleGrizzly just replied expanding what I was saying. Unfortunately, Greyblades' first link does not work as it points to the XP article.. which says the submarines use a modified version of Windows XP. Customised or not, it is still a Microsoft Windows product and if there an error, it would indeed give a blue screen. As for America holding the keys.. it supplies, repairs and maintains Trident. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there were backdoor or covert access to the submarines as well, but that is a different point entirely, as the basic fact we are paying America for our nuclear weapons does mean they hold the keys as if they said no, we would start to quickly get screwed over because we do not have the infrastructure presently to do it ourselves.

I'm sorry, I think you've been in active support of Corbyn for months, I do not think you are remotely even-handed in this. In fact, I must be honest and say I think you have been engaging in self-deception for some time now.

It doesn't actually matter if the Subs run on XP or a modified version of it - military software is rarely updated in the same way as Desktop PC's are anyway, it's not like it needs the latest copy of Adobe Reader, is it?

[LittleGrizzly]

Given the level of misinformation spread about Corbyn and the much higher activity level among those who dislike him its no surprise Beskar probably comes across as a fan just by correcting simple misconceptions or providing actual context. For example when we had the discussion about Labour losing a seat in the by election not so long ago if I remember rightly Beskar just provided some information showing the seat had been going that way for a long time.

Of course given a couple of you loathe what Corbyn stands for whilst Beskar has a more balanced view so as a result Beskar comes across to you as biased. Perhaps it is actually you that is biased?

[Fragony]

Corbyn doesn't know who he is himself, why should others.

[Idaho]

Can you all stop using the words "bias/biased" as if you were all 13 year old keyboard warriors who've just (mis)learnt the word.

It's meaningless to call someone biased. People's opinions, editorial comments, politician's speeches, polemics, etc are not biased.

Bias is relative to accounts, statements and news that purport to be factual or neutral.

[Pannonian]

Can you all stop using the words "bias/biased" as if you were all 13 year old keyboard warriors who've just (mis)learnt the word.

It's meaningless to call someone biased. People's opinions, editorial comments, politician's speeches, polemics, etc are not biased.

Bias is relative to accounts, statements and news that purport to be factual or neutral.

You're the one dismissing primary sources from those close to Corbyn because that constituted "arguing from authority". If actual quotes from people who've worked closely with Corbyn can't be admitted as evidence of what he's like as a colleague, what kind of evidence would satisfy you, and why wouldn't the evidence you've dismissed satisfy you?

[Furunculus]

I put £20 on the tories getting 375-399 seats.
My belief is that it will be at the low end of that range (375-380).

Corbyn is a principled and decent man, much to admire in many ways. He just wants a Britain that is opposite to my own beliefs.
How principled and decent he is, is frankly irrelevant as far as my vote is concerned.

[Idaho]

You're the one dismissing primary sources from those close to Corbyn because that constituted "arguing from authority". If actual quotes from people who've worked closely with Corbyn can't be admitted as evidence of what he's like as a colleague, what kind of evidence would satisfy you, and why wouldn't the evidence you've dismissed satisfy you?

Oh god, you are like a dog with a bone with your tedious "primary sources". Give it a rest.

[Fragony]

Can you all stop using the words "bias/biased" as if you were all 13 year old keyboard warriors who've just (mis)learnt the word.

It's meaningless to call someone biased. People's opinions, editorial comments, politician's speeches, polemics, etc are not biased.

Bias is relative to accounts, statements and news that purport to be factual or neutral.

Must have misLEARNED the word, all words no class

[Pannonian]

Oh god, you are like a dog with a bone with your tedious "primary sources". Give it a rest.

With Corbynista accusations of bias, fake news and all that rubbish, surely it's important to be able to distinguish between credible evidence and not credible evidence. Historians and journalists have similar ways of gauging the credibility of evidence, journalists having the advantage of being able to question witnesses. It says much that you have no interest in these standards, actively dismissing evidence that meets these standards.

[Gilrandir]

Can you all stop using the words "bias/biased" as if you were all 13 year old keyboard warriors who've just (mis)learnt the word.

It's meaningless to call someone biased. People's opinions, editorial comments, politician's speeches, polemics, etc are not biased.

Bias is relative to accounts, statements and news that purport to be factual or neutral.

Definition of bias
1
: a line diagonal to the grain of a fabric; especially : a line at a 45 degree angle to the selvage often utilized in the cutting of garments for smoother fit
2
a : a peculiarity in the shape of a bowl that causes it to swerve when rolled on the green in lawn bowling
b : the tendency of a bowl to swerve; also : the impulse causing this tendency
c : the swerve of the bowl
3
a : bent, tendency
b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice
c : an instance of such prejudice
d (1) : deviation of the expected value of a statistical estimate from the quantity it estimates (2) : systematic error introduced into sampling or testing by selecting or encouraging one outcome or answer over others
4
a : a voltage applied to a device (such as a transistor control electrode) to establish a reference level for operation
b : a high-frequency voltage combined with an audio signal to reduce distortion in tape recording

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bias#h1

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I like slicing zucchini on the bias.

[Beskar]

Given the level of misinformation spread about Corbyn and the much higher activity level among those who dislike him its no surprise Beskar probably comes across as a fan just by correcting simple misconceptions or providing actual context.

It is not like I ever hid the fact I voted Liberal Democrats in the last 3 elections, was a paid member of Liberal Democrats, or thought Tim Farron was a good guy. I admit, I like some of the recent Labour policies, but I have repeatedly said I wasn't keen on Corbyn. I have also posted on this forum that I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to win the first leadership leader and for him to be a flop, so the Liberal Democrats would receive much needed support and attention, maybe even a large defection from Labour into the party.

If I lived in Scotland, I would probably be voting for the SNP as my choice.

That is the range of my 'Loyalty' to Corbyn.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It couldn't just be Labour saying "she supports Israel, we are less supportive?" Has to go straight for anti-Semitism?

Well, it#s basically depicting Theresa May as either Jew or a Jewish puppet.

Alos, Corbyn has allies who are anti-Semitic (Ken Ligingstone for example.)

[InsaneApache]

For the many, not the Jews.

Says it all.....

[Elmetiacos]

The Conservatives are going to win handsomely, majority of about 100. I can only hope Theresa May turns out to be a liar and a hypocrite, because the election rhetoric makes it sound as if we are going to have a trade war with the EU which we will lose and horrible things will ensue.

[Fragony]

For the many, not the Jews.

Says it all.....

Is that actually real or a joke

[edyzmedieval]

Well... that ended not so well for the Tories. The majority is lost. (based on exit polls)

[Elmetiacos]

Dewey Defeats Truman. This is one exit poll that is looking more and more wrong as results come in. I stand by my prediction.

[Sir Moody]

Is that actually real or a joke

if anyone else asked that I would think they were joking... with you...

its fake - the Labour slogan this election is "For the Many not the few" - clearly its easy to photoshop

[Fragony]

You never know with lefties Sir Hoody