Coronavirus / COVID-19

[ReluctantSamurai]

I have been at odds with several others here concerning the right of governments to limit their citizens civil liberties in order to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2. I support the need for containment methods even as far as a short-term lock-down, in order to break the chains of contagion.

During the course of these conversations I have been asked where my limit was; just how far was too far. Well, some of these methods are going too far:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-power/608560/

On Friday, the Hungarian government sent a bill to Parliament that will give dictatorial powers to the prime minister, Viktor Orbán, in the name of the “emergency.” For an indefinite period of time, he will be able to ignore whichever laws he wishes, without consulting legislators; elections and referenda are to be suspended. Breaking of quarantine will become a crime, punishable by a prison sentence. The spread of false information or other information that causes “disturbance” or “unrest” will also be a crime, also punishable by a prison sentence. It is unclear who will define false: The language is vague enough that it could include almost any criticism of the government’s public-health policy.

A similarly abrupt transition is taking place in Israel, where Benjamin Netanyahu—still prime minister despite having lost a recent election—has enacted an emergency decree that allows him to postpone the start of his own criminal trial and that prevents the newly elected Israeli Parliament, in which the opposition has a majority, from convening. He has also given himself huge new powers of surveillance without any oversight. Institutions and tactics normally used to track terrorists will now be used to monitor quarantine compliance, follow average citizens’ activity and movement, and keep track of their temperatures and health status.

The Department of Justice [here in the US], Politico has reported, has already asked Congress for powers to detain Americans without trial, even though such powers are not remotely necessary. Those lawmakers who resist these and similar measures to come should prepare to be accused of endangering their constituents’ lives.

Too far. Fortunately for Americans, such a request to suspend "habeus corpus" will never make its' way past Congress, but in other countries with more authoritarian governments, such new sweeping requests are likely to see little resistance.

So for me, this is too far.

[rory_20_uk]

Fortunately for Americans, such a request to suspend "habeus corpus" will never make its' way past Congress, but in other countries with more authoritarian governments, such new sweeping requests are likely to see little resistance.

So for me, this is too far.

The War On Terror has shredded habeus corpus for years. And just as the USA hasn't declared war but just happens to end up in wars, they'll just use different terminology to achieve the same thing.

[ReluctantSamurai]

The War On Terror has shredded habeus corpus for years

Point taken. Trump is certainly the type of leader that will try to take advantage of any opportunity to accumulate more power. 9/11 was more like Pearl Harbor; an attack on US soil that had the effect (more temporary for 9/11) of creating a unified effort.

Don't know if that kind of sentiment is present on this occasion. Won't stop them from trying.....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

1. To what extent? From the comments I've seen so far, it's not sorting itself out. Toilet roll and sanitiser are notoriously missing from the shelves. So is pasta, and other basics. From my own experience, something is present on the shelves, but what it is varies from day to day. The above listed is never present though.
2. How long do you want rationing to go on for?
3. Does everyone operate via phone apps? What happens to those who don't work that way?

Our supply chains are currently intact and we are already seeing empty shelves, contrary to assurances that we will find a way through. And you still want to add breaking the supply chain on top of that.

Oh, and this isn't about Brexit. This is about supplies. This is about feeding the nation.

For you this still seems to be about Brexit. The Loo roll situation is already getting sorted, and you can still find soap, although it's in short supply. potatoes and greens are becoming a bit difficult at Supermarkets but local grocers are still stocked. Pasta and hand sanitiser are the only things really out of supply.

You wanted a solution, I offered you one, the alternative is paper ration books - which might also happen. Bearing in mind the elderly aren't allowed to leave their houses their inability to work their smartphones might be a moot point. Supermarkets are being re-stocked every day, it's only the continued panic which is emptying shelves. The panic is, fundamentally, about a fear of disease, fear of quarantine, and not a fear of shortages. This is completely different to Brexit.

I have to perfectly honest, and I am sorry if this is derailing the conversation or appearing insensitive, but I am shocked that being alone bothers people so much. I never understood the fear, really. I am not talking about vulnerable people like the old and those with mental issues, since those people have special needs. I spent quite a bit of time alone when I was younger and I continue to be more alone than the average person. I can't say I am a purely solitary person, but I can find plenty to do that doesn't involve other people. Books, games, drawing, taking a walk in the city cemetery, working in my workshop, working on my project car....

If the goal is purely isolation and not necessarily avoiding social contact, you can add old-school forums like this one to the mix. I also think that solitary contemplation is extremely important for maintaining a healthy state of mind. I can't imagine being overloaded with an endless mess of worries and not taking the time to process things.

Also, this isn't against those who must face isolation for over a month, or those with money concerns.

Different people are affected by isolation differently, for you this may be no issue, for me it's a bit problem - I haven't seen any of my family or my dear friends in three weeks when normally I would expect to see most of them every week. You also have to consider that many people live alone, or in house-shares like me, and are not with their families. If you are parents locked up with your children in your house with a garden it's completely different to if you are a single person living on your own in a block of flats.

How this affects you, your circumstances, your personal psychology, will dictate how you see the measures being taken.

I have been at odds with several others here concerning the right of governments to limit their citizens civil liberties in order to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2. I support the need for containment methods even as far as a short-term lock-down, in order to break the chains of contagion.

During the course of these conversations I have been asked where my limit was; just how far was too far. Well, some of these methods are going too far:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-power/608560/


Too far. Fortunately for Americans, such a request to suspend "habeus corpus" will never make its' way past Congress, but in other countries with more authoritarian governments, such new sweeping requests are likely to see little resistance.

So for me, this is too far.

I already referenced Israel, didn't I?

In France you can be arrested for leaving your house without a write from the gendarmes - this is for two weeks right now, but that will probably be extended.

Also, watch Poland.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I already referenced Israel, didn't I?

In France you can be arrested for leaving your house without a write from the gendarmes - this is for two weeks right now, but that will probably be extended.

Also, watch Poland.

And.....?

[Viking]

I have to perfectly honest, and I am sorry if this is derailing the conversation or appearing insensitive, but I am shocked that being alone bothers people so much.

In personality theory, there is a facet of extraversion/introversion called sociability.

Those who score high on that trait prefer to be around other people either all or most of the time (depending how high their score is), and the more people they are around at the same time, the better.

For those who score low, it's the opposite: they prefer to be on their own most or all of the time, and they prefer smaller groups to larger ones.

Most people score somewhere in between and are fine with both spending a lot of time on their own and a lot of time socializing.

Bottom line: people have very different personalities.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

And.....?

And Collectivism is undermining Liberal Democracy. The Lefties will try to consign this to "a few bad apples" but it's just the thin end of the wedge. The longer this goes on the more desperate people and politicians become and the more of our democratic principles will be sacrificed for what are, ultimately, only a small fraction of our population.

Predictably, those who warn against this are demonised for "sacrificing" the casualties of an epidemic, as though they were wielding the scythe rather than nature herself.

[ReluctantSamurai]

The longer this goes on the more desperate people and politicians become and the more of our democratic principles will be sacrificed for what are, ultimately, only a small fraction of our population

There are three choices, as I see it:

1. Do nothing. Let the firestorm rage across the planet until it burns itself out (likely millions die); pay or coerce healthy survivors to become "blood bags" for the rest of society (Mad Max, anyone?)

2. Temporary (length will vary) suspension of any kind of gathering that puts more than 5-10 people in close proximity; only essential services open like grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations, etc. (tens of thousands die)

3. Martial law. Nobody goes anywhere without law enforcement approval; spot checks required for infection, no travel what-so-ever in or out of metropolitan areas. (likely deaths can be limited to 4 figures).

Take your pick and deal with it. I'm absolutely tired of hearing about this "small fraction" of our society, or it's mainly the old, blah, blah, blah. Do your homework and decide for yourself what's the best course of action. For me, history has shown that quarantines work. They've worked in the past, sometimes with dramatic results (as in the Tale of Two Cities links I posted earlier), and they work now, as evidenced by the results achieved in China.

My state here in the US is going on a 3-week lock-down effective midnite tonight. We've cases sky-rocket in the last 5 days (as predicted by current epidemiological maps); some of that is due to a large increase in the amount of testing, and and unknown amount of that increase can be attributed to the ho-hum attitude displayed by some segments of our populace in disregarding social-distancing. Now it's law for the next 3 weeks...keep your ass at home unless you need supplies (which I've already been doing the last two weeks).

No Mas about this crap from me.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There are three choices, as I see it:

1. Do nothing. Let the firestorm rage across the planet until it burns itself out (likely millions die); pay or coerce healthy survivors to become "blood bags" for the rest of society (Mad Max, anyone?)

2. Temporary (length will vary) suspension of any kind of gathering that puts more than 5-10 people in close proximity; only essential services open like grocery stores, pharmacies, gas stations, etc. (tens of thousands die)

3. Martial law. Nobody goes anywhere without law enforcement approval; spot checks required for infection, no travel what-so-ever in or out of metropolitan areas. (likely deaths can be limited to 4 figures).

Take your pick and deal with it. I'm absolutely tired of hearing about this "small fraction" of our society, or it's mainly the old, blah, blah, blah. Do your homework and decide for yourself what's the best course of action. For me, history has shown that quarantines work. They've worked in the past, sometimes with dramatic results (as in the Tale of Two Cities links I posted earlier), and they work now, as evidenced by the results achieved in China.

My state here in the US is going on a 3-week lock-down effective midnite tonight. We've cases sky-rocket in the last 5 days (as predicted by current epidemiological maps); some of that is due to a large increase in the amount of testing, and and unknown amount of that increase can be attributed to the ho-hum attitude displayed by some segments of our populace in disregarding social-distancing. Now it's law for the next 3 weeks...keep your ass at home unless you need supplies (which I've already been doing the last two weeks).

No Mas about this crap from me.

It's nowhere near that simple. Run the actual numbers, in the UK the death toll from "do nothing" is reckoned at 500,000 out of 66.44 million over 12 months. Roughly 1500 people die a day in the UK, so we're looking at an 80% increase over 12 months, although the peak will be much worse than that. The real danger here is not the Coronavirus, it's the stress on the healthcare system where everybody who doesn't have coronavirus getting pushed out

These big, round, neat numbers are of course really only vague guesses.

[Pannonian]

And Collectivism is undermining Liberal Democracy. The Lefties will try to consign this to "a few bad apples" but it's just the thin end of the wedge. The longer this goes on the more desperate people and politicians become and the more of our democratic principles will be sacrificed for what are, ultimately, only a small fraction of our population.

Predictably, those who warn against this are demonised for "sacrificing" the casualties of an epidemic, as though they were wielding the scythe rather than nature herself.

Weren't you advocating rationing earlier? That measure has never been taken outside war, except for the period following WWII when much of the world was in ruins. If you hate collectivism so much, why are you advocating the most collectivist of all measures? Surely you'd want to look at non-collectivist ways of mitigating shortages. Such as removing barriers to trade.

[Pannonian]

For you this still seems to be about Brexit. The Loo roll situation is already getting sorted, and you can still find soap, although it's in short supply. potatoes and greens are becoming a bit difficult at Supermarkets but local grocers are still stocked. Pasta and hand sanitiser are the only things really out of supply.

You wanted a solution, I offered you one, the alternative is paper ration books - which might also happen. Bearing in mind the elderly aren't allowed to leave their houses their inability to work their smartphones might be a moot point. Supermarkets are being re-stocked every day, it's only the continued panic which is emptying shelves. The panic is, fundamentally, about a fear of disease, fear of quarantine, and not a fear of shortages. This is completely different to Brexit.

My point which you seem to consistently duck under is that we're experiencing shortages at the user end despite there being no shortages at the supplier end. Once we experience shortages at the supplier end (we are due to reduce imports from the EU by 95% at the end of the year), how is this going to improve? We've seen that the users will not sort things out themselves.

BTW, if someone has multiple phones and thus multiple IDs, what's to stop them from using your app multiple times to get around rationing? Are you relying on people to play fair, despite abundant evidence that people have not been playing fair?

[Csargo]

https://japantoday.com/category/nati...herry-blossoms



https://globalnews.ca/news/6716919/t...irus-march-23/

https://twitter.com/JoshRosenthalTV/...12503075180545

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Weren't you advocating rationing earlier? That measure has never been taken outside war, except for the period following WWII when much of the world was in ruins. If you hate collectivism so much, why are you advocating the most collectivist of all measures? Surely you'd want to look at non-collectivist ways of mitigating shortages. Such as removing barriers to trade.

No, I was advocating calm but predicting rationing.

My point which you seem to consistently duck under is that we're experiencing shortages at the user end despite there being no shortages at the supplier end. Once we experience shortages at the supplier end (we are due to reduce imports from the EU by 95% at the end of the year), how is this going to improve? We've seen that the users will not sort things out themselves.

BTW, if someone has multiple phones and thus multiple IDs, what's to stop them from using your app multiple times to get around rationing? Are you relying on people to play fair, despite abundant evidence that people have not been playing fair?

You are still making this about Bexit, Hungary just become a tyrannical dictatorship - stop talking about Brexit. It's not important.

[CrossLOPER]

You are still making this about Bexit, Hungary just become a tyrannical dictatorship - stop talking about Brexit. It's not important.

It's not about Brexit similarly to how The 1918 flu wasn't about WWI.

[edyzmedieval]

I just want to make a little announcement from our side - please, stay safe, stay in your house, comment on the Org all you like (you're all welcome here 24/7) but just stay safe and be protected!

The Org is here, we're more than happy to host you while you pass the idle time in quarantine / isolation but above all, stay safe you and your families!

[Pannonian]

No, I was advocating calm but predicting rationing.

You are still making this about Bexit, Hungary just become a tyrannical dictatorship - stop talking about Brexit. It's not important.

A large part of our diet is imported, with food imports coming mainly from the EU. Our truck drivers currently make 30,000 journeys per year to and from EU countries. After we leave, on current conditions, this will be cut to 1,500. A reduction of 95%. How is this not important?

In the current event, even with the 30,000 journeys to and from the EU, our supermarket shelves empty at the first anticipation of shortages. How is this going to get better when there are actual shortages in supply?

[Hooahguy]

Watching the movie Contagion today was a bad idea. Good film though.

[Montmorency]

GOOD NEWS: New York has ramped up its testing capacity from 1,000 people a day 10 days ago to 16,000 a day. (78,000 cumulative tests)

Monkey Paw: That makes us the COVID-19 epicenter of the United States. Over half of the confirmed U.S. coronavirus cases have been discovered in New York. As of Monday, cases in the state account for 58 percent of cases nationwide, and including 33 percent of the U.S. deaths from the disease.





"Predictably, those who warn against this are demonised for "sacrificing" the casualties of an epidemic, as though they were wielding the scythe rather than nature herself."

I have to highlight this because it is such a profound typifying statement of conservative philosophy.

Disease, poverty, hierarchy - to a conservative all of these are merely natural, immutable characteristics of life. Liberals and leftists understand them as properly political and policy outcomes.

I have been at odds with several others here concerning the right of governments to limit their citizens civil liberties in order to limit the spread of SARS-CoV-2. I support the need for containment methods even as far as a short-term lock-down, in order to break the chains of contagion.

During the course of these conversations I have been asked where my limit was; just how far was too far. Well, some of these methods are going too far:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-power/608560/

Too far. Fortunately for Americans, such a request to suspend "habeus corpus" will never make its' way past Congress, but in other countries with more authoritarian governments, such new sweeping requests are likely to see little resistance.

So for me, this is too far.

We've heard this story before.

I did happen to just read this fairly relevant piece about how life in authoritarian countries is largely similar to life in liberal democracies - people just have different expectations about legitimate political behavior.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...-fascism-trump


Now, China is already authoritarian, so they don't need the help. Reportedly they are beginning to loosen restrictions once again, and all the most recent new cases have been arrivals into the country.

Let's see how successful they are in guarding against reinfection through normal commerce.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's not about Brexit similarly to how The 1918 flu wasn't about WWI.

Well, no, because the Spanish Flue was a direct consequence of the upheaval of WW1 - as much as Pannonian might like to claim otherwise Brexit has not caused Corvid-19.

UK in virtual lockdown: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52012432

For at least three weeks but I'm betting at least three month and I'm expecting six months to a year.

Possibly not as stringent right now but it's telling the Government wanted this Bill on a two-year renewal, not six months, initially.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A large part of our diet is imported, with food imports coming mainly from the EU. Our truck drivers currently make 30,000 journeys per year to and from EU countries. After we leave, on current conditions, this will be cut to 1,500. A reduction of 95%. How is this not important?

In the current event, even with the 30,000 journeys to and from the EU, our supermarket shelves empty at the first anticipation of shortages. How is this going to get better when there are actual shortages in supply?

Do you remember what Bush's plans for the DoD were before 9/11?

No, nobody does - same thing.

Now move on because we might all be dead in six months and this discussion is pointless.

[Montmorency]

Re: recent Trump news, and maybe relevant to the local Org discourse:

[Montmorency]

A certain member is straight Fox-Newsified at this point.

https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/s...45135129346050

Conservatives, pre-coronavirus: "Stalin and Mao were monsters for letting people die in order to advance their economic agendas."

Conservatives, now: "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

[Csargo]

I mean, the economy is going to be in dire straits either way. This guy just makes me shake my head honestly. It's too late to go back on what they've already decided, then you just exacerbate the situation. Texas decided to sit in the middle of doing something or doing nothing, luckily some of the larger counties are locking down, which is promising albeit later than ideal. Our entire government seems like a train wreck.

[Pannonian]

Do you remember what Bush's plans for the DoD were before 9/11?

No, nobody does - same thing.

Now move on because we might all be dead in six months and this discussion is pointless.

At worst 1% of us may be dead in 6 months, which is acceptable to some.

You've been complaining about lack of human contact, which you deem to be unacceptably damaging to our society according to your imaginations of domestic beatings and suicides. But food supply isn't so important that you want it looked at, despite there being daily evidence that we do not cope.

[Pannonian]

Well, no, because the Spanish Flue was a direct consequence of the upheaval of WW1 - as much as Pannonian might like to claim otherwise Brexit has not caused Corvid-19.

UK in virtual lockdown: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52012432

For at least three weeks but I'm betting at least three month and I'm expecting six months to a year.

Possibly not as stringent right now but it's telling the Government wanted this Bill on a two-year renewal, not six months, initially.

I never claimed it, so don't admire that strawman too much. I'm talking about food supply, which this crisis has shown to be an issue even when the supply chain is intact. Common sense would suggest that, if you can't cope when the supply chain is working, you're going to cope even worse when it is broken.

[Gilrandir]

Watching the movie Contagion today was a bad idea. Good film though.

Better watch something by Quentin Quarantino.

[Furunculus]

Hunters has a good Tarantino vibe.

But I am tempted to buy Contagion for the funsies...

[Viking]

A certain member is straight Fox-Newsified at this point.

https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/s...45135129346050

Conservatives, pre-coronavirus: "Stalin and Mao were monsters for letting people die in order to advance their economic agendas."

Conservatives, now: "A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic."

On the other hand, making sweeping negative statements about other groups is probably something most people can get behind.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

On the other hand, making sweeping negative statements about other groups is probably something most people can get behind.

Given the 7 or so millennia of human history that supports your statement, it is practically a cliche.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

[Removed]