POTUS/General Election Thread 2020 + Aftermath

[Montmorency]

If anyone is interested, the NYT released a super-detailed interactive map of precinct-level data, including the 2020 vs 2016 data matchups.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ction-map.html

A frustrating missed opportunity in the design of this resource. Aside from not labeling the precinct numbers, the total counts are not included alongside the percentages.

(For an example of why this could be important, look at some of the western precincts were the comparison between 2016 and 2020, cross-referenced elsewhere, counts single digits of voters.)

The 2016 NYT map included counts, though not precinct labels. Use alongside USElectionAtlas.

[Hooahguy]

To think Doug Jones got replaced with this guy:

GOP Sen. Tommy Tuberville says he doesn't know anything about Marjorie Taylor Greene because bad weather has prevented him from reading the news.

[a completely inoffensive name]

How can bad weather prevent someone from reading the news, but not prevent a football game. Really jogs the noggin.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Some surprising statistics on just who assaulted the Capital on 6 Jan:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...emists/617895/

What’s clear is that the Capitol riot revealed a new force in American politics—not merely a mix of right-wing organizations, but a broader mass political movement that has violence at its core and draws strength even from places where Trump supporters are in the minority. Preventing further violence from this movement will require a deeper understanding of its activities and participants, and the two of us do not claim to know which political tactics might ultimately prove helpful. But Americans who believe in democratic norms should be wary of pat solutions. Some of the standard methods of countering violent extremism—such as promoting employment or waiting patiently for participants to mellow with age—probably won’t mollify middle-aged, middle-class insurrectionists. And simply targeting better-established far-right organizations will not prevent people like the Capitol rioters from trying to exercise power by force.

Can't wait to see what SNL does with this bit:

https://twitter.com/JasonSCampbell/s...19881564086272

The expressions on the face of Heather Childers is priceless....

[Montmorency]

You know those random encounters you often see in JRPG dungeons? The sleeping soldiers in the Capitol reminded me of that. Better keep your party at full strength, never know when you'll encounter a band of National Guardsmen!


Also, the NYT resource shows vote counts now.

[Hooahguy]

Biden decides not to give Trump any more intel briefings, which is usually given to former presidents as a courtesy.

Personally I think it would have been more interesting to feed Trump incorrect information and see who he passes it off to.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Here's the "Texit" discussion......again:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...vote-secession

One has to wonder if these folks ever passed grade school math:

https://theweek.com/articles/470115/...tually-seceded

If you're in a state intent on bolting the Union, there is good tax news, says MarketWatch's Arends: "You will be liberated from the sheer living hell of the federal tax code." Of course, you'll also "get fewer government services." Also, your newly independent nation "will go into recession, and fast." The feds would take back their highway, airport, and university research funding, and maybe even demand a refund, says the Fort Worth Star-Telegram in an editorial. Obama would close down or repossess federal courthouses, prisons, national parks, and military bases that pump tens of billions each into local economies. Plus, Texas and other newly minted nations would have to pay for their own militaries, says Jack Simmons at the UT-Arlington Shorthorn. "We would also need some form of health care, some sort of disaster relief, a postal service, welfare, social security, FDA, CIA, FBI — the list goes on," totaling well over a trillion dollars. "And that's just start-up costs."

[Xantan]

I've been thinking heavily in the past period about the next steps - where do we go from here? Where are we going from here?

Last night was the Superbowl and Jeep released a charming advert, with Bruce Springsteen. Sure, a bit corny, but it emphasised the need for unity and understanding. The comment section is an absolute trash bucket and the dislike ratio is also rather high for a commercial advert in the end. While you can say "YouTube comments do not represent reality", I'm starting to think this does not appear to be the case any more as people with real accounts simply rail against leftists, Democrats, Supreme Court and everything in between.

The lake is poisoned with arsenic at this rate, and frankly, getting people to understand basic reality is going to be a serious problem. And talking of Texit and what not... the parody is consumed from my view, we've woken up, only to find that the parody spilled a whole laboratory of poison in the lake.

And don't think it's just the USA. Europe is guilty of this too.

[ReluctantSamurai]

getting people to understand basic reality is going to be a serious problem

The Texit fantasy is just one example of a lack of reality. Even if it were allowed, the "Lone Star Nation" would be broke in a year, despite their oil revenue. Among a whole host of other issues, this pandemic has highpointed the serious lack of reality we have here in America. Over a year in, and Americans STILL don't take SARS-2 as seriously as we should. When these new mutations become dominant by spring, vaccine or no, the carnage will continue. The rise of conspiratism shows that Americans have little faith in our government, and flail about for something to believe in.

Sad to say, I'm not overly optimistic....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The reactionary quintile of the population has not been politically defeated decisively yet. They will scream and curse and refuse all compromise -- Xantan's heavy-metal poisoning reference is not without merit. Given the intelligence damage displayed, I would have opted for lead over arsenic, but...

Eventually, they will be defeated politically to such a profound degree that they will have to a)re-think, or b)rebel and be crushed. I think it will be the former, after a long draw down, but I could be wrong.

Fortunately, the somewhat more centered quintile will probably (and some are already) skipping straight to re-think.

[Pannonian]

There hasn't been much coverage here of US politics since the inauguration. Has the noise quietened down? What's this about Texit?

[Hooahguy]

There hasn't been much coverage here of US politics since the inauguration. Has the noise quietened down? What's this about Texit?

A bunch of Texas Republicans are saying they want to form an independent republic, going as far as introducing a bill authorizing a referendum to leave the US. Probably won't go anywhere, but just in case it does we will be ready.

We should have burned more of the south during the Civil War.

[Montmorency]

A bunch of Texas Republicans are saying they want to form an independent republic, going as far as introducing a bill authorizing a referendum to leave the US. Probably won't go anywhere, but just in case it does we will be ready.

We should have burned more of the south during the Civil War.

[a completely inoffensive name]

A bunch of Texas Republicans are saying they want to form an independent republic, going as far as introducing a bill authorizing a referendum to leave the US. Probably won't go anywhere, but just in case it does we will be ready.

We should have burned more of the south during the Civil War.

Remember years ago on this forum after that one church shooting (who can keep track of all the shootings amiright?) where I said we needed to bring back Radical Reconstruction to finally root out the racist aspects of southern culture and people got all indignant about it?

[Hooahguy]

Remember years ago on this forum after that one church shooting (who can keep track of all the shootings amiright?) where I said we needed to bring back Radical Reconstruction to finally root out the racist aspects of southern culture and people got all indignant about it?

I completely agree. The failure of Reconstruction led to Jim Crow which arguably led to where we are today. So yeah we need a Reconstruction v2 but I'm not sure what that would even look like.

[Gilrandir]

We should have burned more of the south during the Civil War.

I wonder what would be the reaction of others if someone said "We should have carpet-bombed Vietnam more" or "We should have sent more Jews to concentration camps in 1938" or "We should have dropped a couple of more A-bombs on Japan in 1945" or "We should have raped more German women in 1945"? Still a unanimous acquienscence?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The "Reconstruction" ended up being a fiasco.

John Wilkes Booth saw to that at Ford's theater. Had Lincoln been in charge of the first 3 years of it, with all of the political clout he had garnered, it would likely have been much less abusive but far firmer in screening out those who had led the rebellion from positions of power.

As it was, Johnson moved too rapidly towards the reformation of civil governments in the former Confederacy, did little to restrict the returned participation of the previous rebel leadership to political life, and actively campaigned against the rights of newly freed Blacks and against the 14th amendment. Many historians rank him among our worst Presidents, generally only according Buchannan a worse performance assessment -- though now both of them have been surpassed.

Following Johnson, Grant took a stance much more in line with the approach historians expected Lincoln to have taken -- but he could not reverse the "olly-olly-oxen-free" that Johnson had done with so many former Confederates. Grant smashed the first iteration of the KKK, but was not able to overturn the various Jim Crow laws that began to sprout up.


Texas likes to claim that they are the only state that was admitted to the union with a proviso that they had the right to secede. Our Civil War, fought (in part) to assert that no state has such a right, seems to mitigate against this belief.

[Idaho]

I wonder what would be the reaction of others if someone said "We should have carpet-bombed Vietnam more" or "We should have sent more Jews to concentration camps in 1938" or "We should have dropped a couple of more A-bombs on Japan in 1945" or "We should have raped more German women in 1945"? Still a unanimous acquienscence?

So you see the destruction of a racist and murderous political construct as morally the same as killing millions of actual people. Interesting.

[Hooahguy]

I dunno, I just think that going around burning all the plantation mansions of slave owners and other icons of slavery would have been a net positive.

[Montmorency]

Remember years ago on this forum after that one church shooting (who can keep track of all the shootings amiright?) where I said we needed to bring back Radical Reconstruction to finally root out the racist aspects of southern culture and people got all indignant about it?

Are you thinking of the Charlottesville Rally? Cuz the Charleston church shooting was 2015, and I wouldn't recommend reading back through the archives before 2017, for the cringe factor.

I do recall that when I said last year our problem was we didn't burn down enough of the South, you had a strong negative reaction.

[Excerpts of Rebecca Latimer Felton’s speech to the Georgia Agricultural Society, August 11, 1897]

On August 11, 1897 Rebecca Latimer Felton, wife of a Populist leader in Georgia, spoke at the Georgia Agricultural Society about the problems that farm wives faced. She claimed that farm wives faced many dangers but none greater than the threat of black rapists. She argued that charitable donations for overseas missionaries were misspent; funds were better spent educating poor young white girls who had been left unprotected by the poor white men of the South. White men, she said, had failed to protect farm wives from “the black rapist.” Vigilante justice, she declared, was a way for men to restore that protection. According to Felton,

“When there is not enough religion in the pulpit to organize a crusade against sin; nor justice in the court house to promptly punish crime; nor manhood enough in the nation to put a sheltering arm about innocence and virtue----if it needs lynching to protect woman’s dearest possession form the ravening human beasts----then I say lynch, a thousand times a week if necessary.”

Politics was central to Felton’s perspective. North Carolina Republicans who had encouraged African-American men’s success were also to blame for the actions of the “black rapist.” Republicans, Felton insisted, “must find a means to stop the crime that invites lynching by the ignorant and malicious of your supporters, or you cannot escape the responsibility for their actions.” Republicans “encouraged the ignorant Negroes in thinking that the success of the party…insures him against the just penalty of his wrongdoing.” Republicans, who had portrayed white Democrats as blacks’ most bitter enemy, had led African-American men to perform all kinds of outrages against whites. “In his ignorance,” she argued, the African-American man “…has interpreted this to give him license to degrade and debauch.” Speaking to white Republicans, Felton warned, “you are his teacher. You must correct your teachings or you cannot escape the wrath of an outraged people.”

If only the federal response to that stuff had been...




Unrelatedly, an interesting take on US strategy vis-a-vis China:

To Re-Establish U.S. Influence, Biden Should Play Rope-a-Dope, Not Compete Globally
Rather than reclaim global dominance by outspending and overpowering new contenders, U.S. planners should instead simply not contest many of Beijing’s and Moscow’s costly efforts to expand their networks of clients.

I'm familiar with the idea of American retrenchment driven by hard-nosed analysis of our lack of strength, but I wonder how China might be lured into the sorts of imperial over-extensions we have been prone to.

I wonder what would be the reaction of others if someone said "We should have carpet-bombed Vietnam more" or "We should have sent more Jews to concentration camps in 1938" or "We should have dropped a couple of more A-bombs on Japan in 1945" or "We should have raped more German women in 1945"? Still a unanimous acquienscence?

We should have done to the South just as we did to Germany and Japan. Look how they turned out!

[Hooahguy]

Unrelatedly, an interesting take on US strategy vis-a-vis China:

I'm familiar with the idea of American retrenchment driven by hard-nosed analysis of our lack of strength, but I wonder how China might be lured into the sorts of imperial over-extensions we have been prone to.

Probably better to post this in the Biden thread, but trying to lure them into committing more resources in Africa could be a way forward, but Im not sure if that will really have the desired effect, considering China has more resources than Russia does. Its also important to note that while Russia had been committing serious forces into Ukraine and Syria, China was taking a more soft power focus with only sending small numbers of military forces as peacekeepers and letting money do the rest. Their largest deployment is to South Sudan with only about 1,000 soldiers. Compare with Russia in Syria in 2015, they sent about 4,000 soldiers with lots of heavy equipment and aircraft. China seems to be wisely playing it safe in the sense that they don't want to get drawn into an extended conflict like the US and Russia have.

Also I think hegemonic is a better term than imperial in this context, but that's just me.

We should have done to the South just as we did to Germany and Japan. Look how they turned out!

Germany for sure, but there is still unfortunately not a small amount of historical revisionism in Japan regarding various atrocities, such as the comfort women. As with many things, the first step to recovery is admitting one's mistakes, and I feel like large swaths of our country isn't truly repentant over the cause of the Civil War and subsequent oppression. I mean how many still claim it was about state's rights and not slavery?

[Pannonian]

Probably better to post this in the Biden thread, but trying to lure them into committing more resources in Africa could be a way forward, but Im not sure if that will really have the desired effect, considering China has more resources than Russia does. Its also important to note that while Russia had been committing serious forces into Ukraine and Syria, China was taking a more soft power focus with only sending small numbers of military forces as peacekeepers and letting money do the rest. Their largest deployment is to South Sudan with only about 1,000 soldiers. Compare with Russia in Syria in 2015, they sent about 4,000 soldiers with lots of heavy equipment and aircraft. China seems to be wisely playing it safe in the sense that they don't want to get drawn into an extended conflict like the US and Russia have.

Also I think hegemonic is a better term than imperial in this context, but that's just me.


Germany for sure, but there is still unfortunately not a small amount of historical revisionism in Japan regarding various atrocities, such as the comfort women. As with many things, the first step to recovery is admitting one's mistakes, and I feel like large swaths of our country isn't truly repentant over the cause of the Civil War and subsequent oppression. I mean how many still claim it was about state's rights and not slavery?

Why not colonial? They're doing what the East India Company and others of that ilk were doing. They're even sending out Chinese workers to staff the higher echelons of the infrastructure they're creating. The only difference is that modern western countries have liberal scruples, whereas China see their day in the sun.

[Hooahguy]

Why not colonial? They're doing what the East India Company and others of that ilk were doing. They're even sending out Chinese workers to staff the higher echelons of the infrastructure they're creating. The only difference is that modern western countries have liberal scruples, whereas China see their day in the sun.

Thats an interesting take for sure, it would seem to fit the bill with regards to China. Though I was referring to the US when talking about using hegemonic vs imperial.

[Gilrandir]

So you see the destruction of a racist and murderous political construct as morally the same as killing millions of actual people. Interesting.

You mean the destruction of a racist and murderous political construct didn't involve killing millions of actual people? Or are these inevitable victims that don't deserve any consideration but only "serve them right" attitude?

What I see is glorifying atrocities that accompany any war (and sometimes not only war). It is what they do in Russia now saying "We should have starved more Ukrainians in 1932-33" or "We should have killed all those Crimean Tatars instead of just benevolently sending them out to live in Siberia". And I'm appalled that similar hatetalk is heard from an Amercian who, moreover, is an admin at a social media outlet. And all forumers seem to support it and feel mildly humored. Not much of a stranger in a strange land. Something is really wrong with western values.

[Crandar]

Unilateral secession is illegal in the United States, but condemning so harshly the referendum efforts of Texas seems morally questionable. I don't see why shouldn't every state have the right to self-determination and sovereignty, if it so wishes. California, Texas or Hawaii should have, in my opinion, the chance to declare independence, as long as an absolute majority, as established by a transparent referendum, is in favour of it. I remember Spain being internationally condemned for not allowing the Catalans to hold an independence referendum, a criticism with which I agreed, although I'm against Catalan nationalism.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Unilateral secession is illegal in the United States, but condemning so harshly the referendum efforts of Texas seems morally questionable.

And yet you don't find the reasons behind the Texit secession referendums "morally questionable"?

I'll give you a couple of hints...

A quote from Rush Limbaugh [an ultra conservative political commentator]:

There cannot be a peaceful coexistence of two completely different theories of life, theories of government, theories of how we manage our affairs. We can’t be in this dire a conflict without something giving somewhere along the way.

What "theories" do you think he refers to?

Then there's the people of Texas themselves whose lawmakers just lost their bid to have the Supreme Court overturn the legitimate results of our recent presidential election. In other words, FU Detroit, New York, LA, Atlanta, Milwaukee, Chicago, and other Democratic-voting cities. Guess what those cities (and others not mentioned) all have in common?

[Crandar]

American traditional values (tm) and ''Communism'', I suppose? I don't disagree that they are just salty ultra-conservatives (politically correct fascists, we used to call them in the old days) that were disappointed in a centrist winning the bid for the presidency, but I still find the effort to deny the right to self-determination morally questionable. I also find Catalan nationalism vile, perhaps even worse than the cute Red Scare of our Texan cowboys, but I think Madrid should have let them have their stupid referendum anyways.

[ReluctantSamurai]

American traditional values (tm) and ''Communism'', I suppose? I don't disagree that they are just salty ultra-conservatives (politically correct fascists, we used to call them in the old days) that were disappointed in a centrist winning the bid for the presidency, but I still find the effort to deny the right to self-determination morally questionable.

While it's true that this sort of talk emerges in Texas every time a Democrat wins the White House, you were closer to the mark with 'politically correct fascists'. In other words, good old fashioned white supremacy. So how about the right of self-determination for those that white supremacists wish to keep under their boot heel? Texas led the way this past election in voter rights suppression. A fear that black Americans, Latino Americans, and all those people they fear will "replace" them, get the right to determine the direction this country takes. So of course....let's Texit.

[Hooahguy]

American traditional values (tm) and ''Communism'', I suppose? I don't disagree that they are just salty ultra-conservatives (politically correct fascists, we used to call them in the old days) that were disappointed in a centrist winning the bid for the presidency, but I still find the effort to deny the right to self-determination morally questionable. I also find Catalan nationalism vile, perhaps even worse than the cute Red Scare of our Texan cowboys, but I think Madrid should have let them have their stupid referendum anyways.

I'd say it has more to do with being mad about minorities flexing their right to vote than actual worries about communism or socialism. As mentioned earlier, there is deep-seated racism amongst many on the right, even if they wont admit it. That's why they focus their efforts to overturn the results in areas where African Americans predominantly live. Worst-kept secret of the GOP. There's a reason why Rhodesia has become more popular among the far-right, and I predict it to become more popular in the coming years. So when I say things like burning more of the south would have been a good thing, its because we should have taken a stronger stance with regards to the power structures within the south that were left after the Civil War. Yes I know my comment was flippant but I stand by it. White militias such as the KKK and the White League waged war against the federal government for years after the war ended, trying to violently suppress Black voters and remove them from power. While Reconstruction was in force, those efforts largely failed as they were hunted and put down by federal forces. But after the federal forces left, it was open season on minorities, leading to the horrors of Jim Crow and other racist efforts. Our failure to properly handle Reconstruction led to the way we are now.

Besides, the Supreme Court case of Texas v. White ruled that states cannot unilaterally leave the US so a referendum is pointless anyways unless they want to fight over it. Again.

[Montmorency]

Just in: Anthony Brindisi (D) has conceded to Claudia Tenney (R) in #NY22.

Final 2020 election House result: 222D, 213R. Republicans came within 31,751 [efficient] votes of winning the majority.

You mean the destruction of a racist and murderous political construct didn't involve killing millions of actual people? Or are these inevitable victims that don't deserve any consideration but only "serve them right" attitude?

What I see is glorifying atrocities that accompany any war (and sometimes not only war). It is what they do in Russia now saying "We should have starved more Ukrainians in 1932-33" or "We should have killed all those Crimean Tatars instead of just benevolently sending them out to live in Siberia". And I'm appalled that similar hatetalk is heard from an Amercian who, moreover, is an admin at a social media outlet. And all forumers seem to support it and feel mildly humored. Not much of a stranger in a strange land. Something is really wrong with western values.

Whenever there are whites upholding hegemony over blacks, you appear on their behalf blaring for the baring of the neck for the knife or the bowing of the head for the boot. When can the weak, the innocent, the injured, expect some of your mercy or solace?

The chef's kiss of hypocrisy is lamenting the very "Western" values that most animate the condemnation of the persecution of such peoples as the Ukrainians and Tatars.

American traditional values (tm) and ''Communism'', I suppose? I don't disagree that they are just salty ultra-conservatives (politically correct fascists, we used to call them in the old days) that were disappointed in a centrist winning the bid for the presidency, but I still find the effort to deny the right to self-determination morally questionable. I also find Catalan nationalism vile, perhaps even worse than the cute Red Scare of our Texan cowboys, but I think Madrid should have let them have their stupid referendum anyways.

I don't think you can compare Catalan separatism, whatever its merits by consequence, with American falangism. When we recall that Catalans were particular victims of homegrown fascism, it even becomes perverse.

For the record, the Texas Republican expression of a right to secede has a long history as a publicity stunt and does not contain any substance or actionable intent. Republicans want to dominate the country, not break it up.

And realistically, Puerto Rico is the only territory that could escape US suzerainty, if a Democratic Congress forced the issue of its territorial status through a binding extreme-dichotomy referendum. Although, on the flipside I'm not sure it would be legally available for Congress to mandate a territory to hold a specific referendum. Maybe it could, would need to research the question.