Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Sleep]

i don't believe you're "smacking down" my points at all... i think your interactions with ender can easily be w/w, you disagree. okay, i'm not going to lay it all out. it's not going to convince you that you're a wolf if you're not one and if you are one then you're just going to say "how is that ever aligned" anyway. there's no fucking point. i've already said... three times now? that i'll evaluate your interactions with ladd closer. because i do believe that, if there is anything i can glean from dead wolves that can help me find you, it is that.

...with that said i have not gotten around to this yet and don't reallly intend on changing that right now.

what i am doing right now is being here. not very much more. i'm here because i have the game stuck on my mind. i'd love to just go back to playing video games but alas. i don't really have that much motivation to Do Much right now. so i'm not forcing myself to. i'm engaging with you on the off chance you are a villager because i don't want to throw the game because i'm petty. i've spent most of this day phase trying to figure who the imposter among us is, i've reread the entirety of your D1 and D2 ISOs and asked questions i thought would give me the most AI answers. i'm engaging with the thread because i read players largely off of realtiming and vibes.

you have had 24 hours and have gotten basically nowhere and your lingering suspicion of me is off tangentially the idea that i could plausibly be associated with flipped mafia except you can only give the most weaselly half-assed justifications that you immediately retreat from when i call you on them being bad


this is incredibly lazy and i refuse to believe you'd play this way as town. you are not trying to solve this game whatsoever or engage me in good faith

[Sleep]

why am i town? because my rolecard says so! badum-tss

okay fine. my wolf game is mostly like... effort. a wim machine. i'm not going to say "i'm a villager because it's obvious i don't really care that much this game" but it's probably true. im not going to say "im a villager because dobby had more posts than me" but it's probably also true. at multiple points during this game i asked to be killed because i didn't want to be here. obviously that's wifom, but i don't think i try to argue with the confirmed town sorcerer about how i'm an optimal bomb target as mafia because... they might just take it seriously, lol.

you have posted a ton. to claim you have not put in effort this game is a lie. this is to say nothing of the fact that an effortful scum player can take it easy. you are also skilled enough to realize that arguing you should be killed in the game is a way of getting townread

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...oe#post5027757

you have used this exact tactic as mafia before so claiming it as a reason it makes you town is a BLATANT LIE.

[Sleep]

as hollowkatt said i'm very much so a people pleaser as mafia. although i've honestly grown to be more of one as town too, because i believe strongly in town cohesion and stopping arguments i believe are v/v. (im not saying i cant get into stupid arguments such as this one, because i'm also prone to those. i'd likely be trying harder to)

okay, and this makes you not mafia this game because...? this is just describing yourself, not anything you did this game you would not do as mafia. if you argument is "i didn't get into enough arguments so i am town"....that is extremely unconvincing.

i'm also pretty cheeky as wolf and like making those "hehe" jokes i can point back to in postgame and say "lol, lmao" and love subtly openwolfing but that's. probably not something that reading my iso during a game can really get you to very often. especially with how often i make stupid jokes as town too.

irrelevant, unimportant, discarded.

oh and i also also make a lot of wifomy kills. i think w!me would very likely kill hollowkatt and say it's a framing job or something. in DV i shot a PoEish player N2 just because they were tunneling me. i also killed illario going into LyLo which was the most blatant kill that led to me by a significant margin

shooting a player who is tunneling you is +EV. shooting someone unexpected going into F3 is not. by your own logic, killing the player who was tunneling you was the most beneficial kill, not a WIFOM kill. by that same token, killing dobby was the most beneficial kill for you as mafia, given that i had expressed suspicion of hollowkatt and hollowkatt has been hard townreading you

killing hollowkatt would make no sense because i literally never ever make that kill and there was no chance i was voting dobby. terrible argument. worthless argument.

[Sleep]

what i don't do as mafia is shoot myself in the foot constantly. i don't defend wolves who are dead in the water. i don't constantly say how much i dislike the prospect of the current wagon formations if they're literally all villagers... if town is doing my work for me then i'll fucking let them. especially if i can tell from early on in the game that i'm going to be playing for the long haul, and looking at the dead wolves, i think that was evident by N1 at the latest.

when did you defend wolves who were dead in the water? i remember no instances off the top of my head.

as for criticizing the current wagon formations...i think you're a bit like me in that as mafia you want to stay on "the right side of history" and avoid being on MLs if town is eating itself and you're in no danger. the thing about this is...YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THE WAGONS SUCK BUT STILL VOTED NEWCOMB. IT WAS TOTALLY PERFORMATIVE.

and circling back to "defending woklves who were dead in the water"...you are claiming that my defense of ender on day 2 is a bad look for me but using the same argument in your defense. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, THIS SHOULD BE A POINT IN FAVOR OF ME BEING TOWN. But it is never something you consider at all, because you are not trying to view the game through an unbiased cognitive lens, you are simply looking for excuses to push on me. your logic is incoherent and inconsistent because you are not actually trying to solve the game.

[Sleep]

how i would likely play this F3 is take the path that's easier for me. after F5, that path is very likely pushing hollowkatt over you because cape died screaming you're always town and that he's probably the wolf. several villagers have died with you as a very strong townread. i could flat out just quote newcomb and say "lol bye HK" and get away with it. you were appealing to me in a way that i could have very easily pocketed you. i'm not quite sure if i kill dobby over you either but that's a hard perspective to actually think about.

already addressed: i have seen many times before that mafia have avoided taking the "obvious" route in f3. this is an unconvincing argument.

but i'm not really appeasing to anyone. i'm not taking the "easy" path. i'm not doing any of that. i'm responding to you because i'm tired of dealing with you right now. i don't really want to be an ass so i'll leave it at that.

the thing is: you're not doing ANYTHING. because the win condition for mafia is SIMPLY TO NOT GET VOTED. AND YOU ARE PLAYING LIKE SOMEONE TRYING TO NOT GET VOTED. if you were town you woulf be concerned with ACTUALLY TRYING TO SOLVE THE GAME but YOU ARE NOT

[Sleep]

the difference is that me and HK have been townreading eachother and you have to push one of us

i don't really think w!you can afford to kill hollowkatt over dobby and i absolutely do not think w!you could afford to kill me over anyone

so your argument is again somehow that you would make an unexpected kill that benefits you while I...would make a kill that puts me in a situation with 2 people who have been townreading each other??

YOU ARE NOT APPLYING THE SAME STANDARDS OF REASONING TO ME AS YOU ARE TO YOURSELF. THIS DOES NOT COME FROM A TOWN MINDSET.

you've swapped over to pushing me while i've given the impression that i think it's you more confidently than i did earlier

i swapped over to pushing you because hollowkatt's posts started to giv me pause and make me think he really believed the stuff he was saying. he didnt react to me like how i think a mafia would react. that was very evident from how i responded to him at the time. it didnt have to do with you. i have gotten more aggressive with you because your reasoning continues to be extremely faulty and i believe it is my job to press on that to expose the inconsistincies in your logic

[Sleep]

and that's handled. katze cannot string together a single coherent reason as to why she is actually town this game.

[Sleep]

@hollowkatt talk to me when you get back

[Sleep]

i really can't be bothered to "demonstrate a world" to you right now, ask me later. i saw approximately zero clearing interactions between you and ender. plausibly some between you and ladd.

you and monstr can absolutely be w/w???? the dude clearly had a moment and you had absolutely nothing to do with it? he snapped at raskol. if you're going to say "ooo monstr said he hated me that's not w/w" then he said he hated everyone so clearly he's not wolves with anyone and his flip was tailored! wowee! seriously though. i don't believe for a second you believe that and it's not cool to bring up.

and i... already explained what it means. zzz

revisiting this: this is a mentality slip. katze'd shrieking frustrated outrage at me bringing up monstr does not come from a town mindset.


this same exact thing has happened to me before in a game: a member of the mafia flipped out and started abusing me when i was doing absolutely nothing. and then in late game after that player's slot had finally flipped, i brought it up as a reason that i was town, the remaining mafia member was OUTRAGED that i brought it up even though it was self-evidently clearing. but i didn't DO anything. monstr is the one who was abusive toward ME.

this is because katze is salty that monstr's meltdown self-evidenly spewed me town. the whine of no fairrr is leaking through here.


if katze were actually concerned about solving the game at all, if she were a townie with even a single shred of conscience, she would ask herself "wait, would partners really interact that way?". but instead she reacted this way. because she is scum who needs to be able to push me and is upset that i'm using it as a defense.

[Sleep]

Actually see you after EoD now

I'm so sick of this

Having emotions is not ate

I'm about to get mad for real

[Spoiled for unpleasant content. Original, unaltered contents of post are below - GH]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

How about all of you go die in a fire

Mafia is the dumbest fucking game in existence

I don't care

I hate them as a person

[Spoiled for unpleasant content. Original, unaltered contents of post are below - GH]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I hate all of you on a deep and personal level that goes outside the game and I wish bad things on every one of you goodnight

I am bringing this back. You might find it unpleasant. I don't care. It is absolutely necessary to consider this if you actually want to play this game to win.


I want both of you to look at this with a straight face and tell me monstr reacts this way to a partner. he was getting upset and AtE'ing at rask, and I came in, told him to calm down, and he responded by SAYING HE HATES ME AS A PERSON. that is LITERALLY NEVER PARTNERED.


If you are town and conclude this is plausibly w/w, you are an absolute joke.

[Sleep]

I honestly almost don't care and want to vote you anyway because I'm sick of things like that

I don't care about this game

Thats not ate

If you think this is AtE then perhaps get a class on emotions and their uses

you should have a glass of water and calm down

sorry, multiquote ate the first two quotes. here's what kicked this off. first quote was in response to rask and then i stepped in

[Sleep]

i have been obvious town all game

i have not been accurate, i have made a lot of mistakes, but i have been trying to solve constantly


the way flipped scum has interacted with me is not how scum interacts with their partners

every single town who died was reading me as town


if this game ends in me getting MLed it is an absolute disgrace

[Sleep]

[Sleep]

if you dont believe me, believe ladd in his own words

[Sleep]

(for full context, the graph shown is for turbos, but he obviously speaks in more general terms about his strategy after that)

[Sleep]

(i, on the other hand, definitively do bus and have a significant body of work to demonstrate this. i would have no compunctions about doing so here and would have confidence in my ability to endgame if i did so. instead my reads have mostly been bad. this is a function of me being town)

[Sleep]

i feel like even now, at this very instant, i am blindingly obvious town by the way i am playing and i don't understand how the town aming you does not see that

[katze]

zzz

okay if this is the way you're gonna play it i guess i'll just prove everything i said right

give me a moment

[katze]

you have had 24 hours and have gotten basically nowhere and your lingering suspicion of me is off tangentially the idea that i could plausibly be associated with flipped mafia except you can only give the most weaselly half-assed justifications that you immediately retreat from when i call you on them being bad


this is incredibly lazy and i refuse to believe you'd play this way as town. you are not trying to solve this game whatsoever or engage me in good faith

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...=1#post5434788

v!katze depressed at the state of the game feeling demotivated and burnt out?

never heard this one before

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...ress-of-Vienna

i mean hell in this game i wasn't even depressed at the gamestate i was just burnt out and lazy for irl reasons

but i guess if you're going to ask me to link you games you'll only refer to the ones that support your argument, right?

[hollowkatt]

Players Votes

ladd 4 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius, Montmorency, Raskolnikov)
Newcomb 3 (Enderwiggin, katze, Sleep)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, nebjiamn, Dobby)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
hollowkatt 1 (Csargo)


This is the final tally I have.

Pm me or dm me on discord if there are any corrections.

which one of you was trying to save Ladd and which one was trying to kill newcomb

[katze]

multiquote help

test

[katze]

you have posted a ton. to claim you have not put in effort this game is a lie. this is to say nothing of the fact that an effortful scum player can take it easy. you are also skilled enough to realize that arguing you should be killed in the game is a way of getting townread

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...oe#post5027757

you have used this exact tactic as mafia before so claiming it as a reason it makes you town is a BLATANT LIE.

ok that fixed it

imma be honest sunbae it sounds like im the optimal bomb target because every read ive seen on me has been soured by paranoia of "katze is a good wolf and nothing is 100% clearing" which will v likely not change unless exactly newcomb flips mafia

Idk katze, I think I can see plenty of worlds where you get called a villager by most of the thread!

:p i read the future

there's a massive difference between me performatively saying "lol just yeet me and sheep my reads" and me literally telling sunbae i believe im the optimal vest target?

[hollowkatt]

Players Votes

Cuthillius 4 (katze, nebjiamn, Sleep, Raskolnikov)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, Cuthillius, Montmorency)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
hollowkatt 2 (Dobby, Csargo)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
ladd 1 (Winston Hughes)
Newcomb 1 (Enderwiggin)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)

1062

and both of you were on cuth before that.

[katze]

okay, and this makes you not mafia this game because...? this is just describing yourself, not anything you did this game you would not do as mafia. if you argument is "i didn't get into enough arguments so i am town"....that is extremely unconvincing.

irrelevant, unimportant, discarded.

shooting a player who is tunneling you is +EV. shooting someone unexpected going into F3 is not. by your own logic, killing the player who was tunneling you was the most beneficial kill, not a WIFOM kill. by that same token, killing dobby was the most beneficial kill for you as mafia, given that i had expressed suspicion of hollowkatt and hollowkatt has been hard townreading you

killing hollowkatt would make no sense because i literally never ever make that kill and there was no chance i was voting dobby. terrible argument. worthless argument.

this isn't worth arguing about because it won't change your mind if i'm wrong on you, my point was that i'd probably have killed HK instead of like, raskol or some shit

i'm completely content leaving harder clears alive if they're not doing anything to disrupt me, killing holyflare in finale for example (not really a great one because he was also consensus town but i was also trying to undermine his townread status and plausibly could have)

we almost kept hornet alive for F5 in the finale as well despite them being considered an IC

other examples include... mashes. which i'm not going to pretend mean much. and dead homesite games. wee

[hollowkatt]

Tally as of #570 (editing in)

3 Cape90 (Sleep, Katze, Winston)
3 Monty (Zack, Csargo, Sunbae)
2 Monstrdude (Monty, Hollowkatt)
1 Csargo (Cape90)
1 Winston Hughes (Cuthillius)
1 Hollowkatt (Monstrdude)
1 Newcomb (Nebjiamn)
1 Katze (Newcomb)
1 ladd (Enderwiggin)
1 Sleep (Ladd)

Remember, if you do not vote using the Vote: Format with the colon, i aint gonna count it. its in the rules.

both of you have circled each other for quite a few vote counts on D1

[katze]

when did you defend wolves who were dead in the water? i remember no instances off the top of my head.

as for criticizing the current wagon formations...i think you're a bit like me in that as mafia you want to stay on "the right side of history" and avoid being on MLs if town is eating itself and you're in no danger. the thing about this is...YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THE WAGONS SUCK BUT STILL VOTED NEWCOMB. IT WAS TOTALLY PERFORMATIVE.

and circling back to "defending woklves who were dead in the water"...you are claiming that my defense of ender on day 2 is a bad look for me but using the same argument in your defense. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, THIS SHOULD BE A POINT IN FAVOR OF ME BEING TOWN. But it is never something you consider at all, because you are not trying to view the game through an unbiased cognitive lens, you are simply looking for excuses to push on me. your logic is incoherent and inconsistent because you are not actually trying to solve the game.

monstr/dolby

zack gave me shit for calling dolby a villager while everybody else in the world was like "hehe dolby obvious wolf"

also thought monstr was town before the Incident and defended that on D1 as well




and ender wasn't dead in the water on D2? you soft defended him a dozen times while people were going both directions there

[hollowkatt]

one of the two of you was sheeping the other D1 b/c with the exception of the final vote count neither of you voted a wolf.

I have no idea if that's AI for Sleep, I feel like it's semi-ai for katze, gotta do some checking tho

[hollowkatt]

also katze you need a fucking turbo alt holy fuck

[katze]

when did you defend wolves who were dead in the water? i remember no instances off the top of my head.

as for criticizing the current wagon formations...i think you're a bit like me in that as mafia you want to stay on "the right side of history" and avoid being on MLs if town is eating itself and you're in no danger. the thing about this is...YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. YOU SAID THE WAGONS SUCK BUT STILL VOTED NEWCOMB. IT WAS TOTALLY PERFORMATIVE.

and circling back to "defending woklves who were dead in the water"...you are claiming that my defense of ender on day 2 is a bad look for me but using the same argument in your defense. BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, THIS SHOULD BE A POINT IN FAVOR OF ME BEING TOWN. But it is never something you consider at all, because you are not trying to view the game through an unbiased cognitive lens, you are simply looking for excuses to push on me. your logic is incoherent and inconsistent because you are not actually trying to solve the game.

oh and addressing the first paragraph i literally tried to tell people the wagons were bad and explained which ones i thought were especially bad

take monty off the list imo

i thought the tinfoil he had about visor posting a votecount right after you voted ladd was villagery and it's a peak "look, here's whats going to happen" vote



not very

although looking back i might laugh at it

holy shit its almost EoD im so used to MU votecounts reminding me at all times how close it is alfoamgjnmgh

vote: unvote

sorry

be back in a min

these wagons fucking suck

dont kill sleep
maybe kill newcomb??? idk fuck
probably dont kill csargo
dont kill hollowkatt what the fuck why is he a wagon
dont kill rask

i did do things about it. yeah i didn't go size 7 bluekang-talking-about-alexa mode and hard shielded a player. that's not how i roll. i call shit as i see it.

[hollowkatt]

town katze has absolutely shit reads... in terms of vote history on MU. Looked at the vote history of their last 8-10 MU games and their town vote history is full of green on green, some green on red. katze wolf games are much more accurate, but some of that is voting for cred and/or voting to provide cred (see katze on alexa in champs finals for example of the latter).

This game katze has shit reads and their vote history is full of green on green