Kylo Ren's Banana Time Mafia

[EnderWiggin]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have this deep dark feeling that I am once again going to be the game-losing misflip for town. Tbh I thought that yesterday but I was wrong so here's hoping I'm wrong again.

But I'm expecting to see a Ladd alive and Lissa flip in the morning. I did deny Lissa the hammer intentionally to hopefully reduce that chance but after I did that I kinda honestly thought it was a futile move.

Sunbae isn't going to want Lissa over Ladd. So hi Ladd. Given our history I don't know how I'm going to win this game for town but I'm going to give it a fair shake. (Unless you're wolf in which case I called it but I still lose lol)

So yes, after Sunbae's vote I hemmed and hawed for a while because honestly I was like "Does Sunbae really pre-empt that on a partner?"

But Lissa had just said that she thought Visor was the wolfier. And I'd just made a comment or two about Visor being the wolfier. (I was going to vote Visor tbh after I re-wrote my wall but you'd have to trust my word for it so nyeh.) so I think Sunbae was honestly just taking the thunder away from other people and setting down the first vote.

And then I was like "If Lissa gets the hammer she's hammering Visor. And if she's right then she gets killed in the night 100%." So I took that away and hammered Visor myself.

So I'm going to jump back to Sunbae. I have tossed this over in my head and it was what settled the previous night as the most confident thing I had.

Sunbae, why does he randomly go after me when I'm unassailable? When I've just shot one wolf and no one is challenging my position? Because, as wolf, he's not going to garner sus then either. Maple is on the block and nothing is saving him.

Sunbae can set up for the next phase of the game, trying to undermine me.

Which also harks back to "Why did Jan give me the gun."

Because, as I said on that day, it honestly makes so little sense in the grand scheme of things. Because wolves potentially lose an ml.

But I think I kind of have an answer to that. They didn't know who had the Last Parting gift. And if, say, Maple or Lissa (Who were getting a lot of sus prior to Jan's flip) had it then we could clear POE with it still.

And given my vote on Lissa maybe I was swayable. If they can get me onside with Jan then they've pretty much won the game since I was one of the most vocal sussers of Jan (In my impression at least.)

Risk with not much downside since Maple is tied heavily enough to Jan that they can easily chain that together.

So I've done the rereading and things I think are indicative of wolf!Sunbae that I really want to bring to your attention:

1. Jan townread on D1 (Very strong) only to reverse it when he realised that Jan was tanking and very quickly heading towards being very sussed.

2. Visor literally spent a lot of D1 trying to bait someone into leading the wolfread charge on me.

3. Sunbae desperately played for the hammer in the hopes it would be given because they just win then.

4.

I find you and Ladd villagery on posting still which is why Im struggling this game. Via posting I think you two are the villageriest two while mechanically/dealing with the deal wolf I think ender (killed)/lissa (push) are and I'm hung up in my "my vibes vs mechanics" torn viewpoints. I'm also baffled by how locked in both of you are on each other - you on him more given i think if you read his posts he's just been massively pro villa this game and you dont seem to have really considered that - but yeah. Part of me thinks both of you would have an easier time seeing the other as villagery as villagers so i also have a SMALL FEAR that its both of you.

I feel like this is easily the wolfiest post in the thread regarding the F5. Sunbae is intentionally finding reasons to fence sit and talks about "assuming Visor/Ladd as v" right after saying Visor/Ladd should cross.

And as I said, Visor and Sunbae spent more time talking about reading *other* people. Also I find it hilarious that they spent a lot of in-thread time talking about a horse game.

5. You remember how you said that "If you think Visor/You are w/w after D3 you're a wolf"?

Could I get your thoughts in as much detail as possible on a potential Visor/Ladd world? Earlier I called it the most logical one if I just ignore posting (ender shoots jan, you heavily case jan, visor and ladd are just good posting woofs). And if you don't want to be convincing me because you think I'm a wolf pretend you're convincing Ender of it!

I can't help but notice that Sunbae is intentionally trying to field it.

this was moments before he wilded a Lissa/Me world because it would push two town into the wolf sphere and you/Visor were nettling. He literally flung whatever was at the wall in hopes if finding a way forwards. It never felt like Sunbae was trying to solve the game in an organic manner.

---

I could diatribe more but got a headache so I'll continue once day starts and I can post instead of re-writing things in a notepad lol.

@Lissa

Still relevant info but enjoy my incredibly wolfy appeal to the night kill

[EnderWiggin]

2. Vanta's post about it looking like Visor is trying to chain something together and he doesn't like it is villagery for the exact same reasons I find Waza's posts wolfy. I look at it and say "wow good thought process Vanta, you're really thinking intricately about the game so you must be a villager". Werewolf is a stupid game and I am able to hold these two thoughts simultaneously.

Also wanted to point out how Vanta townread for sussing Visor for trying to chain things but never comments a read on Visor until:

think my current start for suspects is in but not lissa/cape nor visor/cape so my interest there is significantly less than the previous 3

probably a villager
jan
ender
cape

lean villager
rask
ladd

woofing?
maple
visor
lissa
waza

But then D2 comes to Visor's side against Raskol's attack at which point they basically rep a townread on Visor.

[EnderWiggin]

my heart wants to like sunbae (my brain is staying strong on that one for now).

Raskolnikov
EnderWiggin

Cape90
Sunbae

waza
ladd
Visor

Maple
Lissa


This is my order right now.

Maple is not a wolf by play and just down there because everyone above has done things to be towny.

Rask is toptier purely on vibes.
Enders d1 intro rarely comes from a wolf and I liked his d2 start as well.

Jan also repped a vague townread on Sunbae the entire time while he buttered me up hard with strong statements (And I am gonna call that unpairing fuck you.)

visor/sunbae w/w

I wanted to add this btw because I stumbled over it on reread and found it hilarious.

[EnderWiggin]

Read thread.

1 wolf in Ladd/Ender
1 wolf in Maple/Rask
1 wolf in Waza/Lissa/Jan



I have Visor/Cape as my villagers.

I currently lean the wolf team being Ladd/Rask/Waza but that's more just a shot in the dark. I feel pretty great about the wolf groupings though.

Also I thought this "Groupings" were weird when it was first posted but I reckon it feels even worse in a retrospective

[EnderWiggin]

Ladd i have villa, just out of his D1 solving. The read is kinda idle rn considering their irl.

Now I smh didnt like his first page posts but I am not sure if its ai or not and I confess I didnt look back at other games but mostly I dont rrcall feeling this way reading ladds early posts. Also I was a bit disappointed by his final logic vote d1 (i do think its better to vote people with content, blame me).

Ender i do not have more to add I guess. Kinda of an ego read but he has the correct one on me when I felt there was so momemtum early D2 to build up my wagon ridding people bad pushes... which brings me to Sunbae.

I am still digesting their wall but the part about me is not charitable and misrepresenting to an extent. I get the willingness to read and make AI conclusions out of player moves, but the way they paint what I did around visor is not right. Like I didnt switch anything, i just miss remembered who he was pushing early D1, yet the conclusions held, like to me his early case on Cape was meh (I labelled it as "lazy" itt) and I quite didnt get the follow up with Vanta ww with Cape (as I said, in lieu of the other possibilities). If you were paying attention yo what I was saying, its clear I didnt "switch" anything, just missremembered who was the first visors push. And its pretty clear itt since I adressed the first case live, the second case live then misstyped when I sum up the reasons for my vote late D1.

It doesnt make suunbae lock wolf, but still uncharitable, borderline sloppy. Which is weird considering the effort they seem to put in the game (look that wall lmao).

Finishing some stuff (cover for me eating "viennoiseries") then Ill finish up my ketchup

I also want to point out that if I was wolf I have 0 reason to kill Rask since I effectively have him pocketed, and the above would be really good to keep around given in a W!Ender world I'd be stacking on my towncred from the Jan shot to try and force through a vote. And winning in F5 is way easier than F3 for me anyway.

[EnderWiggin]

I was going to promise myself to check other worlds but I think if you're wolf Lissa then I'm pretty much going to struggle to get there and struggle to get Sunbae there so lol.

Vote: Sunbae



(This is where Lissa hammers and I feel like an idiot.)

[Lissa]

Ack etc.

Honestly not all that surprised I'm alive here. There's some deep lore with me and f3s ngl. And ladd was obv also pretty clear.

I have Thoughts, not really gonna get into them just yet.

[EnderWiggin]

I won't lie, despite the confidence I had in that vote I was still worried.

I'll probably be sleeping soon but thankfully the weekend is coming up next for me so I will actually not vanish for 75% of the day for work. (Though I'm probably going to be gone for the last 8-10 hours due to a commitment watching Beetlejuice, so I'm hoping to get all my posts/questions out of the way before then.)

[Sunbae]

vote: ender

All you need to do is read day 3 where I do a complete 180 on ladd unprompted. I start at maple/ladd, reread the thread, come out with ladd as the villageriest person in t he game, call rask the second villageryiest person in the game, then spend the next however long trying to find scenarios where all of those thoughts (visor v, ladd v, rask v) can co-exist.

Ignore the shit being said today where it's just people telling you what you want to hear.

Go read that section from start of day where I sit there and try to yell about how Jan giving a gun to a villager when its one chop away is nonsensical all the way to the end of my reread. Ask yourself if it's more likely that it's me reevaluating and coming to the correct conclusion as a villager or shifting from a winning position as a wolf to make things more difficult. Read visors response to me not believing the ender shot where he tries to convince me it makes sense. Then read yesterday as I sort through everything and come to the correct conclusion while also trying to position myself in a way to help today and sorting through things.

Essentially: Ignore stuff today because the answer is in the past.

- Eod 2 where Ender comes in calling after calling Jan a wolf that day and then votes you over him

- Sod 3 where I point out that it makes zero sense for wolf Jan to give a gun to villager Ender.

- Entirety of day 3 where you ask yourself who is trying to solve the game between the two of us


I trust in your ability to get it right. And if you are hesitant, Ladds parting words are that its 3x more likely to be ender than me and that i should snap ender. He cant be alive for ender wolf which is why hes dead.

[Sunbae]

i don't know how you go from saying enders posts are "I am ngl when i first read his posts i thought he seemed fine

But then i re read them and wow they are so wolfy lmao"

and then the second spurt is fine and really?

i don't really understand how you changed your mind here

at the risk of making another w/w read.....

Also we talked about Visor linking villagers to wolves (jan/waza to you eod2) and heres him doing it to ladd/ender

[Sunbae]

alrighty i am caught up

rask/lissa i am never voting this game, you can hold me to this



sunbae - until d3 i dodnt see why he couldnt be a wolf but i think his posting today and the conclusion he has come to are both correct and villagery in processo so maybe i am a sucker but i think he is just a villager

ender - i dont see who he could be a wolf with. he is not with maple and not with visor (i think) so ya only viable is team is like sunbae/ender but that does not feel right to me + i dont think he would go for a gambit again against a similar PL+i think he has been reasonably villagery except eod2+jan piced the target during d2 and he had ender as top villa so ender as target makes sense to me

maple - prolly wolf by PoE. If not we are in trouble cause it's probably some super hard world like sunbae/visor

visor - i have explained why i think he is a wolf and why i think him/maple makes sense as a fit



i'll be back for EoD tho expect it will just end in a maple lunch

so why is it a problem that i had this read earlier than you lol????

wild

reading the last page i do think hell world sunbae/visor is unlikely. unless they are doing some elaborate good cop vs bad cop ploy i don't feel those pages with me/visor/sunbae in it would happen the same way if they were w/w?

i am pretty locked in on visor/maple, it just makes ~everything fit for me (just a bit spooked by jan v list lissa posted and jan voting maple/visor in quick succession on eod2 but i think it's reasonable he was in anti spew given he had already claimed)

if i am wrong sorry, c'est la vie

second most likely team is probably sunbae/maple, then sunbae/visor and then sunbae/ender

Dont listen to me. Listen to Ladd.

But if you want to see visor be a bit annoyed that hes not getting credit for villa reading me correctly thats in there too

[Sunbae]

Like Ladd has just been pro villa start to finish. defending cape, defending waza, not hiding behind my jan v read and starting to get there on him, voting jan as a double voter, votes jan again like idk its just all pretty villagery to me results wise

I think if I just take a deep breath it's like "games easy, just pew pew maple then ender when he doesnt die in the night or its 2 wolves and thats why the third is hard to find" but some very hard worlds exist and id really like to fade them

I guess my big hangup is how does Ender wind up with the ability to shoot Jan if Ender is a villager when Jan gets to choose the target and Ender has a started wolf read on Jan? You can just give it to another wolf and you're safe.

Not one answer I've come up with about on this topic makes sense to me. There's seemingly zero benefit to doing so. What? You give it to someone wolf reading you and then convince them to save you and then come in the next day and have them shield you? You're still dying the next day. And the downside is he shoots you.

And why wasn't it given to me in that case? I defended him! I'm snowable in that situation!

According to Knights' role, people aren't told they have a bomb so you can't even argue that Jan had a bomb and was expecting to blow up Ender who happened to have an antidote

the way i see it there are four major lines

a) you give it a wolf, you shoot to go deep
b) you give it to a wolf, you don't shoot, argue it either unpairs you, or hard defend or whatever
c) you give it to a villager, they don't shoot you, hooray
d) you give it to a villager, they shoot you, people think why would you ever give it to a villager, has to be a wolf going deep, they kill them

so the argument is either wolves thought they needed to send ender deep/ go for hail mary, or wolves figured that by giving to a villager even if they shoot you, theres a good chance that they get killed anyway

This is all on day 3 when the entire game is handshake.gif that its maple/ladd and the game is about to end. I say I'm going to do a reread and come out with this.

None of this is needed at all if its me/visor. This is good ole fashioned villaging

[Sunbae]

Also note: the key takeaway at this point from my constant Ender pushing after the claim is NOT whether having Jan give the gun to a villager or wolf makes more sense.

The key takeaway is despite me harping on it for two game days - four real life days - Visor at no point tries to go along with it. He argues against it at every turn. He doesn't try to get other peoples thoughts on it. He doesn't try to use it to clear me if we're w/w. He doesn't try to use it to get people onto Ender if we're w/w. He doesn't start hemming and hawing about Ender could be a wolf from it.

He constantly defends it. Handwaves it away. Ignores it when possible. He does not want to dig deep into it for an extended period whatsoever.

[Sunbae]

Don’t see myself voting rask or cape today

Probs not ladd unless he starts posting howlers

Everyone else I suppose is fair game

waza goat

[Sunbae]

Visor has really talked about wanting to read Ender but then like not reading ender like twice today, in the second post being like "Ender is tomorrow's problem"

cape GOAT

[Sunbae]

I'll leave for now with this:

It is ok to have bad reads. Especially in a game like this where the entire player list are sickos. I do not deny that my reads on day 1 and day 2 were bad. I was turned around on Jan. I was turned around on Visor. I was on the wrong side of visor/rask and I was on the wrong side of Waza. What is important is what happened as the game went on. I think I did a good job of:

- Reorienting myself on day 3. Once we had a wolf flip and a few information kills like Waza/Cape I started righting the ship. I reread the thread and came out with Ladd/Rask v heavily. Even calling them the most villagery people in the game which I feel was massively pro villa given the timing and context. Ladd was starting to sus Visor hard and we know Rask was going back and forth on that hard as well. It would be very easy to keep up with the "maple/ladd wolves" threadstate the game was in but instead I came up with a totally different conclusion that really struck against a pro-wolf gamestate.

- Being unrelenting about something I didn't view as on the up and up. When Ender claimed the Jan kill I went through it extensively because it did not make sense to me. At all. I constantly returned back to the fact that it made zero sense to me for Jan to ever give the gun to a villager when they were at one chop left. Note: I think at this point cape just had a bomb and killed carrying Jan then Ender claimed to try and salvage it knowing that Jan didn't visit anywhere, but that still makes him a wolf so the point holds. I would not shut up about it. I consistently brought it up. I would not just let it die and shrug it off because I knew it made no sense. HOWEVER the key part is that I still tried to solve around this. I viewed worlds that would exist if I were wrong anyways (like Ladd/Lissa yesterday!). This is because I was attempting to solve the game rather than just push a narrative.

- Holding strong to those convictions. I spent the rest of day 3 and a chunk of day 4 trying to figure out how the shared views I had of Ladd, Rask, and Visor being villa could work. It's clear I spent a ton of time trying to work through scenarios on how that could exist. Maple/Ender is what I ended up at (the post about it being easy and pew pewing Maple then Ender when he didnt die in the night) but I also heavily explored Lissa/Ender. I tried to put myself into the shoes of that world and explain what had to happen and why if so and by that I mean I tried really, really, really hard on day 4 early ("i think i solved it" post).


Essentially my recap points to one important fact: As the game went on I got more villagery. Not less. This was expressed by Ladd as well yesterday and day 3. As we got more information I got more villagery. As I realized things I was wrong about I got more villagery. That is the key to finding villagers deep in the game. Who got more villagery the longer it goes on. Its me.

[Sunbae]

I do want to reiterate that the answer is in the game and not today. I can recap til the cows come home - and its reasonable to do so - but nothing is going to shine the light more than reading through the game yourself and asking "who is trying to solve the game and who isnt"

[Lissa]

alright

i need to reread shit again, really, but my current thoughts rereading yesterday and reflecting on things said there, things brought up today, and the rest of the game are basically this

sunbae very much appears to have been actually trying to solve the game yesterday, a lot of his lines of thought seem like he is solving from an uninformed pov (the in depth tinfoil on me for example), the emotional cadence so to speak of him thinking he has found things is villagery. frankly, that question ladd and i both freaked out at was probably actually villagery at that point - i don't imagine wolf!sunbae would actually have thought that was going to be meaningfully effective there, it was clear in my posts and my mindset and also like the reason he asked the question just feels real lmao. and me and ladd would be a crazy theory to make up on the spot there

i'm somewhat skeptical that: "who is sunbae paired with" and yet "ladd/visor can definitely be paired" were said in basically the same breath by ender. the mindset seems mismatched

it's a bit hard to really get a full picture of ender's worldview yday but his last content dense post before the vote felt like it was written from the conclusion / for the conclusion not the other way around, like they were working backwards from it (ik they did lose and have to rewrite it which could explain to some extent but still)

god i just got a hit of sleepiness. i stayed up too long the night/day i have to wake up really ""early" and usually get like max 5 hours of sleep and gave up and decided to just not. but i might need a nap

i think sunbae hard committing to ladd v was pretty villagery

bombs poison not kill outright btw. so the jan parting gift was definitely given to a person (probably cape to prevent bullshit

visors play around ender was pretty weird - when i think about it, he poked at ender a fair bit weirdly earliy and then sorta openly just tabled him for no reason. its notable to me in general that i don't remember him having really pushed ender, one of the thoeretically most ml able people itgh

as an aside, i feel a lot better In General about making a decision today after getting there yesterday. correctly managing to pivot out of that pretty deep pocket and hard flip my read and (well not technically voting there, but forcing the wolf to do so, effectively) was very satisfying, honestly. rereading the moment where it kinda clicked and i started really committing to the pivot is really cool. ladd goat

anyway, i'm maybe around (might doze off), though i certainly will be taking anything said today with a PRETTY large grain of salt cause yes, the answer is in the rest of the game.

[EnderWiggin]

Awake and honestly unsurprised. I'll do my best to help but ngl this is not the most unusual circumstance for me. =P

One day I'll work out how to be villagery without spam-posting every thought I have into thread.

[EnderWiggin]

Also I keep thinking about the fact that his reads felt like he started with a clean slate today instead of natural progression. I mean looking at his iso again, he did, outright, say he was doing this, in fairness. but it's not /really/ how it generally works for villagers imo in practice

That’s how villas are more likely to think rather than the way you have, and if you actually are town here and managed to correctly find me based on your reasoning then I will flat out say you are the most woke player that I have ever played with and I will refer to you as blade the woke from every game here onwards.

Link for the post

bladescape was eliminated. They were: Vanilla Town

I just wanted to bring this up because I'll be honest I'm really fucking tired of being told how I operate isn't how "Villagers operate in practice".

(I will note that Happy has actually never referred to me by my rightful title since but I thought it'd be awkward if he did so I've never pressed it lmao)

[EnderWiggin]

Also discovered I've apparently been nominated for an award for towny play on MU that I didn't realise despite the months since it was happened which is very funny of a contrast between that and this.

[EnderWiggin]

Also note: the key takeaway at this point from my constant Ender pushing after the claim is NOT whether having Jan give the gun to a villager or wolf makes more sense.

The key takeaway is despite me harping on it for two game days - four real life days - Visor at no point tries to go along with it. He argues against it at every turn. He doesn't try to get other peoples thoughts on it. He doesn't try to use it to clear me if we're w/w. He doesn't try to use it to get people onto Ender if we're w/w. He doesn't start hemming and hawing about Ender could be a wolf from it.

He constantly defends it. Handwaves it away. Ignores it when possible. He does not want to dig deep into it for an extended period whatsoever.

I actually want to leverage this very argument lol.

@Lissa

You've played a lot with Visor. He's an adroit wolf, but honestly ask yourself:
In a situation when defending partners or bussing them is proposed, he tends towards always giving himself ways to bus.

He has rarely been the wolf defending a partner and refusing to agree to a wolfread.

Why would he break that for me here? Especially going into F3 where bussing is classically the more effective move.

And yes I'm going to appeal to you to the final moment idc if you take my words with a grain of salt because at least if you hammer me when I do I can feel like I've tried.

[EnderWiggin]

I will call back to earlier days and people though. I'll acknowledge I had a bad EOD2. I don't have a defense for it. But that shit happens to town and Ladd acknowledged I have done it as town in the past. (I will grab this quote if you really need.)

But also what was Waza's final reads?

So yeah tldr ur probs the middle man who seems tonally okay and i will judge based on how flips go

If visor lissa jan is wolf heavy then that’s favorable for you, if its very villa heavy then you might be in trouble or at the very least will require a more closer reading

still iffy on sunbaes solving ngl

i appreciate the work they put in, but they never seem to be here at eod which is the most important point of the day, that being said it could be timezones. but yeah just hard for me to digest that theyre doing a lot of solving but none of it really translates to impacting how the day plays out which makes me wonder if its for show

also im bothered by their rask/ladd/me solve feels kinda powerwolfy, i know its 1/3 at best with ladd being the only possible wolf there and if ladd is town then its 0/3.. i dont get how sunbae can supposedly find visor town but is struggling to find rask. obv skill issue on my part if im wrong on rask but i dont feel like i am atm

Funny that these aren't the posts that Sunbae quoted.

Their final read on Sunbae is that their solving feels unimpactful and stiff and wolfy.

Final read on me is that he doesn't have a good read but "If Lissa/Visor/Jan is wolf heavy then it's favourable for you."

Which... fun fact...

But also, following logic why did Rask die over you?

fwiw I do remember your treatment of pzelda in the first MD game

Your treatment of jan start of day 2 feels a bit the same way (you pinged him implying the NK was pointing at him) though I guess the context is somewhat different (it was clear pzelda was dying D1 in that MD game).

Honestly probably this post alone spooked wolves. He was coming to a Sunbae townread. But I want to highlight the following anyway:

Lettuce work on finding a villa in maple/sunbee/ladd

Why am I letting Ender apart I dunno.

Ill wait for the hoody claim before posting more nonsense

Nah its just I realised I had let Ender apart staring at the alive player list (maybe because I was leaning town there I dunno)

Ender I feel good about, might be teinted by the fact they have a correct read on me... cannot parse it vetween tmi or just good villaging... still unlikely to go there for now.

If I'm wolf Rask was pocketed.

If I'm making a Jan gambit to go deep... why am I ever killing Rask? Of all the players in this lobby he is one of the people I'm most confident in pocketing. And I honestly can show you evidence from previous org games of this. Though I think you've been in several.

So like why would I ever kill him over you who I think only had a townread on me due to the shot and even then you were warbling on it?

Rask literally left me out of a list subconsciously because he's reviewing me as town. I take that 100% of the time.

[EnderWiggin]

Also as a side note "Sunbae actually seemed to be trying to solve the game" so you think the whole 'unnatural' dropping of my reads list and rereading from the start wasn't trying to solve the game?

In response to the whole "I don't know how Ender forgot x it was memorable" I can reveal the funniest part of my play:
I make reads list partially to remind me of where my brain was at. Idc if you find this wolfy it is 100% true and I'll confirm that post-game if you need. Might be I need to be clearer how my brain works because it feels like it just doesn't work how people think brains work. Hence the sequence where I forgot why I townread Waza and went and searched my own posts for the reason.

[Lissa]

I actually want to leverage this very argument lol.

@Lissa

You've played a lot with Visor. He's an adroit wolf, but honestly ask yourself:
In a situation when defending partners or bussing them is proposed, he tends towards always giving himself ways to bus.

He has rarely been the wolf defending a partner and refusing to agree to a wolfread.

Why would he break that for me here? Especially going into F3 where bussing is classically the more effective move.

And yes I'm going to appeal to you to the final moment idc if you take my words with a grain of salt because at least if you hammer me when I do I can feel like I've tried.

that isn't really a standard definition i'd assign to his wolfgame; i do think he can very much do an array of things depending on the situation

i don't think him bussing you in v3 in a you/him world would have actually changed the resulting calculus too much here tbh

i think it could very well make sense for him to have protected you here as w/w. i think it sticks out a lot, to me, that both jan and visor were pretty much completely uninterested in ever killing you in any concrete way when if a villager you're certainly one of the more mislimable people in the lobby. i understand that's a point that you can't really engage with in any meaningful way if you're a villager and i'm sorry about that and do believe that if you are a villager i will get there in spite of that. but it's definitely a big thing on my mind, here

i certainly see what you mean about him being weirdly obsessed with asking people about you, as i read his early posts again

its a bit weird honestly either way lol. he never really did anything with any of it, just passively tossed you as fine to die d1 and then voted maple, d2 he sort of soft made a w/w read on ladd and you, he spent so much time asking people questions about you but never really did anything real with it.

he has a string of posts in the early 500s where it feels increasingly like he's trying to tie you and ladd together, then kinda drops that line, then tossed you in a list of people he was fine with killing in a spot where you were clearly never a real candidate pretty close to eod
then the next day (sod3) he starts sorta softball pushing you shortly before you get itt and claim the kill

and after that just in general he seems pretty uninterested in ever actually exploring the idea of you being a wolf in a way that sticks out as notable

[Lissa]

in a world where you are a wolf, rask presumably died over me because i was pretty deeply pocketed by visor and yall hoped you could win in f5 to it (not an unreasonable world for a number of reasons, there is certainly history that supports it potentially working)

Also as a side note "Sunbae actually seemed to be trying to solve the game" so you think the whole 'unnatural' dropping of my reads list and rereading from the start wasn't trying to solve the game?

In response to the whole "I don't know how Ender forgot x it was memorable" I can reveal the funniest part of my play:
I make reads list partially to remind me of where my brain was at. Idc if you find this wolfy it is 100% true and I'll confirm that post-game if you need. Might be I need to be clearer how my brain works because it feels like it just doesn't work how people think brains work. Hence the sequence where I forgot why I townread Waza and went and searched my own posts for the reason.

i don't think i worded that quite how i wanted to, i apologize. i was genuinely dozing off as i wrote parts of that post

if you're a villager you definitely just kinda had less opportunity to display more over-time ig attempt to solve the game due to time reasons, i do recognize that. truthfully it's definitely just harder to compare the f5s when sunbae was here for a while going down a bunch of lines of thought exploring weird angles and out there lines of thought, and yours doesn't do that sort of thing to that kind of extent but it also makes sense that it wouldn't if you're a villager. you simply werent really in thread that much after the cross for non game reasons so there wasn't as much like visible development

(and i get it about the reads lists, i believe you i don't doubt that)




it certainly is a thing that visor latched on hard to that waza push on sunbae and used it to get him killed, effectively, which would be /very/ advantageous there if sunbae is a wolf lol

[EnderWiggin]

The only reasoning I can propose is that I get more ml-able the later in the game it gets lmao.

But yeah idk what I'm supposed to say there. I don't know why I was that person they kept soft-baiting sus on but never committed to.

[Sunbae]

i think sunbae hard committing to ladd v was pretty villagery

I think if you go back to start of day 3 and read where I started at before rereading and then where I ended up on Ladd it makes it crystal clear how I reached that conclusion. We had just gotten Jan W, Cape v, and Waza v flips so when I started at Maple/Ladd before rereading and then seeing him vote Jan as a double voter immediately, vote Jan day 2, and defend both cape and waza to people during his ISO I realized he was playing massively pro villa.

i think its just ladd and maple

visor, lissa seem pretty villa
rasks posts today are good
ender claimed the kill


forgive me if i do not wall today (tho i note that if its ladd and maple my conclusions were correct i just voted wrong!!!)

I am a bit skeptical after reading that Ladd has gone from "why isnt visor just a wolf" to trying to convince Visor im a wolf without having done a full catchup yet. But! I will say that with Ladds "why isnt visor just a wolf" and Raks being on Visors case for 2+ game days that I will go back and read Visor in isolation for my due diligence. I do suppose that if I say Im a sucker for people wolf reading their friends strongly and pointing to Visor doing so about Rask, then I really should look at it the same way when Rask is doing it too. I think it was just visors language being so direct ("mask off" post) that pulled me to that direction.

I hear that ladd. I will do a full reread today with an open mind. My hope is that most of the game are handshake.jgp because it's just been boxed out. You have ender shooting a wolf, lissa and visor pushing jan at eod2, hoping that maple is a wolf who isnt really posting much content which clearing rask from being a wolf if so, and then I'm left with you.


Now this isn't a lock which is why I'll reread later once I get more free time. I could see scenarios where ender is a wolf and either claimed the shot from Cape or had a wolf ploy to just actually kill Jan to go deep. I could see scenarios where Rask is a wolf and Maple isn't. I could see scenarios that Visor or Lissa voted Jan with full intention of moving off.

It's just as of right now I think those scenarios are just less likely than "maple is a wolf and you're the least villagery remaining". Which, hey, I thought you were villagery d1 and then you were afk day 2 so maybe it's just an absence thing and I'll realize my mistake if so as you post more.

What I'm going to do is reread the thread with the following possibilities in mind:

- Does the thread made sense if the wolves are something like Ender/Visor/Jan. This would be ultra hard world.
- Does the thread make sense if the wolves are something like Visor/Lissa/Jan. Also a difficult world.

Both of those worlds would have me turned around on day 2 pretty bad thanks to a visor misclear but I do want to touch on them because I now know Waza was a villager who was clearing Rask hard (even going so far as to say I am wolfy for not having Rask clear but having Visor clear) and Rask has been mostly pushing Visor for days. So due diligence on the hard worlds are going to be helpful.

Once I knock those out I'll have a better idea of where to go from there. I am hoping the answer is Maple/Jan/x but we'll see

d1/d2 recap of things i found noteworthy for each player during reread (raw data, no conclusion yet)

Rask:
- "I made a note on Ladd, I'll reveal it later"
- says Jan needs more votes in passing
- votes me, everyones favorite villager
- votes lissa once visor does
- doesn't like enders vote on maple (again, defending maple just "lacking")
- unsure what to do with visor now, calls maple/lissa coordinated
- asks ladd why vote logic instead of maple
- votes visor
- questions vanta for their jan vote, says its out of nowhere
- pushes visor more wondering why he was pushing vanta and cape, says its too proactive for villa visor prior to eod
- begging people to vote visor at eod. ends with 3-2-2 logic visor maple. Logic flips v.
- starts d2 pushing visor
- says visor isnt trying to find peoples alignment, just pushing people waiting for a case to take off
- but does like the callout of jan
- says if visor villa we need to look into maple/lissa/jan then votes lissa
- hates to admit it but visor might be villa, lissa still has wolf equity as does maple, likes ender, wishy washy on me, waza/ladd town
- has ladd villa based on d1

Ladd:
- becomes double voter, votes Jan
- waza comments that his nonchalance when voting Jan is wolfy as there would be pressure there to be right (also a too much lmao read)
- calls visor wolfy, says theres no reason cape cant just be a wolf pushing a villager or a villager with a right read
- says he thought ender was fine then reread the posts and wow they are so wolfy
- says is ok with jan, visor, cape, vanta, waza, me, rask
- now thinks visor is a wolf
- thinks lissa is villa, doesnt wanna lunch cape because he thinks waza is villa and waza likes cape villa, changed his mind again on ender and likes the recent posts about maple, calls jan v because i called jan v, has visor wolfy still
- votes logic
- changes his mind on sheeping jan v and calls him in commentary mode
- disappointed in jans reentry
- confident in rask/cape/waza villa
- votes lissa, defends visor, calls rask/visor v/v but also doesnt know if that works. says one concern is visor/maple being w/w cause the push feels w/w
- votes jan



Visor:
- Calls cape/vanta w/w with the idea that cape knows vanta is most common miskill and as a villager would wait and see whereas the early vote points to knowing they are gonna get pressured and getting on early.
- defends maple to ender (manti hasnt done anything alignment indicative)
- pushes back on my jan v read a smidge then asks me about ender and maple
- votes lissa
- votes maple
- starts day 2 pushing rask, #400 is the "mask off, painted the words IM A WOLF" post
- calls maple a wolf, then asks jan about vanta dying given vanta was wolf reading jan
- is confused about ladds take on ender and flip flopping
- says maple is in their slanking wolf game, d2 for jan is looking worse because theres nothing against thread position. like he's worried about who to push instead of just pushing wolf reads
- votes maple with a cmon do something
- likes lissa voting jan (more stick your neck out than her normal wolf game)
- votes jan after lissa extensive casing of jan w
- questions ender voting lissa and where the jan read went
- calls waza/jan w/w
- votes waza
- votes jan
- votes waza


ender
- defends rask from waza but calls waza v for the read
- votes vanta, then changes course and votes maple
- calls jan wolfy for "this his down to end it with idk if wolfy" in comments about ender
- says cape, rask, me, waza likely has zero wolves. maybe vanta too.
- says jan feels wolfy, maple feels wolfy, slight red to visor, lissa is w/e
- reiterates that maples latching onto "capes omgus" is just hardcore aggro wolfing
- pushes back at jan and rask defending maple
- calls rask town
- starts day 2 reiterating rask town, votes visor, calls cape town too
- reiterates visor wolf using a previous game as evidence where visor was weirdly aggro towards him but then pulls it back after actually checking and pulling the quotes
- continues to call rask v and then calls lissa sus
- calls jan/maple feeling of being paired
- votes lissa after lissas extensive jan casing


lissa
- defends maple to ender with the same "hasnt done anything alignment indicative" reasoning as visor did earlier
- votes cape
- agreed with ladd that jan v, but disagrees on cape v and still thinks cape is a wolf
- agreed with ladd that jan is in commentary mode and is probably somewhat >rand wolf
- doesnt wanna kill cape anymore, maybe ender but meh not really
- votes logic
- not villa reading visor strongly anymore
- explains she didnt wanna killa maple eod1, "liked a couple of her posts"
- thinks rask/visor is v/v, thinks im a villager, thinks jan is a wolf and votes jan
- does a whole post quoting some jan posts saying she still thinks jans a wolf
- does it again
- does it a third time
- does it a fourth time
- has a conclusion post about jan wolf (564)
- has a followup about it with visor who agreed
- doesnt want to kill visor, thinks jan is actively wolfy
- votes waza?
- votes jan ("kill the wolfy player who is probably a wolf")
- votes waza
- doesnt wanna go maple



maple
- votes ender as an unabashed omgus
- cases cape as a w

jan interactions
- shades ender for their posts towards knights and their vote on maple but then says twtbaw
- supports lissa's pushing of cape (i read this as not aligned fwiw)
- votes lissa d2, has maple lissa as the two wolf reads
- says enders intro d1 is too convoluted to come from a wolf. the way he agreed with maple just to turn around within two heartbeats

Conclusions based on rereading:

1. Ladd is quite villagery. Becoming a double voter and immediately voting Jan, reasonable looking back and forths about players like visor and ender where see movement happening in his opinions based on posts that are happening, has good reasons to villa read villagers being pushed a bit such as defending cape because he thinks waza is a villager and waza thinks cape is a villager. Has a good shift on Jan from v (sponging me) to disagreeing and calling him in commentary mode after another spurt of Jan posting. Has every ability to just keep that V read and blame me for it but is calling out Jan instead. Votes Jan again. In order for Ladd to be a wolf he has to just be playing rather pro villa. Defending villagers and pushing wolves while doing so with fluid reads on people.

2. I have concerns about Ender who called out Jan and Maple as w/w but then once the eod 2 happens where Jan and Maple are wagons ends up voting Lissa (who has just cased Jan extensively). However, I do feel like their posts on Maple are pretty spot on ("hardcore aggro wolfing") and I think their sequence with Visor about calling him out for being wolfy for a similar aggression to him as a recent wolfgame and then backing off when he went and found it and noticed it was different is villagery. I just struggle to see where the lissa vote came in that context so hopefully he can help me out with that and I can be ok.

3. There were multiple instances of her defending Maple against pressure that stood out to me - notably the one that actively says she liked some of Maples posts rather than just the nai defense - and once she started going on Jan she didn't stop for a while only to last second swap to Waza because visor called Jan/Waza w/w??? So one of two things occurred here: 1.) Lissa started the bus on Jan once it was becoming apparent that his time was short (and knowing he was going to give the gun to someone and might be dead anyways) so did so thoroughly and convincing where she quoted multiple Jan posts and read them as the wolfiest interpretation possible. Like 5-6 posts about it in a shortish order and reiterating it with people. Then once another avenue opened up at eod she figured why not get waza if possible. or 2.) She correctly buried a wolf and then got cold feet at eod when he came in and claimed, then voted the other wagon that wasnt someone she was defending (maple).

I can see both of those possible. The thing is I can see her as a wolf with Maple (defending one while bussing the other), with Visor (working together to push it onto Waza), or with Ender (Jan returns and wolfchat concocts the "let ender shoot me" plan so they need Ender/Lissa to make sure Jan lives that night). I do find it odd that Jan is the only person she latches onto and really digs into their posts to reiterate their wolfiness yet backs off at eod.

This is a tough spot for me because she did spend time defending me that eod while cape/waza wanted to shade me. So I think I'm supposed to clear her for defending me/pushing jan but yeah idk. I'm keeping an open mind and I see a lot of lissa wolf avenues.


chewing on visor/rask stuff still so more to come there

god im either great at werewolf or dogshit at it but i wanna call ladd the villageriest person in the game after rereading ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I don't think it is an exaggeration to call this sequence the turning point for me figuring out the game. Everything I did late day 3 to day 4 - from clearing rask to villa reading you to finally getting there on visor - stemmed from this sequence. It's clear where I started, how I got to where I got to, and how it took me in different directions that the wolves were aiming for right there. And it's clear I stuck to my guns when push came to shove on Ladd vs Visor.

- Ladd voting Jan as a double voter

- Ladd voting Jan on day 2 and staying there

- Lad defending Cape and Waza

[Sunbae]

My thoughts on rask is that like every dead villager had rask as an obvious villager and even alive people are all circling around it (ladd has it strong, ender does too, then visor/lissa are kinda like yeah i want to call rask a wolf but maybe hes just v).

If I look at his posting myself then I do have a few concerns. First, he's had multiple instances of throwing Jan into wolf reads (needs more votes, likes visors callout of jan for the vanta night kill when he was wolfreading jan, if visor villa we need to looks at maple/lissa/jan) but never actually applying any pressure there like he does to maple and lissa in similar spots. Second, I feel like the Vanta kill comes after rask getting to talk to him all night means there could be more than rasks post about their hood chats (that is, vanta gives reads and rask is like oh lets kill him). Third, I feel like the flip flopping on visor is odd in the strength of things. The reasons listed for pushing visor are strong things such as "isnt trying to find peoples alignment", "too proactive for villa visor" but the reasons for backing off are just like "well i hate to admit it but maybe visor is a villa" without anything specific and concrete as a reason to point to for that feeling. Which I find concerning because either you're exaggerating your strength of the wolf read to back off of it for lighter reasons or you're less willing to describe why you're villa reading him rather than wolf reading him. Which both make me go hmmm.

HOWEVER, there are good call outs of jan in there even if they aren't followed up on. There is clear back and forth on visor thoughts. He is trying to get his wolf reads killed and not laying back in commentary mode. He's sticking his neck out into things and bouncing around topics. His strong villa reads seem good.

Gun to head I'm calling him a villager based off of the dead villagers and the fact that I have to elaborately explain ways he could be a wolf while the ways he can be a villager are just "yeah hes playing well as a villager, makes sense"

god im either great at werewolf or dogshit at it but i wanna call ladd the villageriest person in the game after rereading ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

really? walk me through it

Like Ladd has just been pro villa start to finish. defending cape, defending waza, not hiding behind my jan v read and starting to get there on him, voting jan as a double voter, votes jan again like idk its just all pretty villagery to me results wise

if you could talk more about lissa i'd appreciate it

i gotta think on ladd some, if you feel that strongly about it

I can feel the disappointment in his wolfy ass t0an when I get there on Ladd for good reasons and stick to it too hehehe

[Sunbae]

My thoughts on rask is that like every dead villager had rask as an obvious villager and even alive people are all circling around it (ladd has it strong, ender does too, then visor/lissa are kinda like yeah i want to call rask a wolf but maybe hes just v).

If I look at his posting myself then I do have a few concerns. First, he's had multiple instances of throwing Jan into wolf reads (needs more votes, likes visors callout of jan for the vanta night kill when he was wolfreading jan, if visor villa we need to looks at maple/lissa/jan) but never actually applying any pressure there like he does to maple and lissa in similar spots. Second, I feel like the Vanta kill comes after rask getting to talk to him all night means there could be more than rasks post about their hood chats (that is, vanta gives reads and rask is like oh lets kill him). Third, I feel like the flip flopping on visor is odd in the strength of things. The reasons listed for pushing visor are strong things such as "isnt trying to find peoples alignment", "too proactive for villa visor" but the reasons for backing off are just like "well i hate to admit it but maybe visor is a villa" without anything specific and concrete as a reason to point to for that feeling. Which I find concerning because either you're exaggerating your strength of the wolf read to back off of it for lighter reasons or you're less willing to describe why you're villa reading him rather than wolf reading him. Which both make me go hmmm.

HOWEVER, there are good call outs of jan in there even if they aren't followed up on. There is clear back and forth on visor thoughts. He is trying to get his wolf reads killed and not laying back in commentary mode. He's sticking his neck out into things and bouncing around topics. His strong villa reads seem good.

Gun to head I'm calling him a villager based off of the dead villagers and the fact that I have to elaborately explain ways he could be a wolf while the ways he can be a villager are just "yeah hes playing well as a villager, makes sense"

god im either great at werewolf or dogshit at it but i wanna call ladd the villageriest person in the game after rereading ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

really? walk me through it

Like Ladd has just been pro villa start to finish. defending cape, defending waza, not hiding behind my jan v read and starting to get there on him, voting jan as a double voter, votes jan again like idk its just all pretty villagery to me results wise

Aight so I'm DEFINITELY dying, but we're on 7 and there's most likely 2 wolves left, so unless we hit today or people were REALLY convinced I was clear, me dying generally reasonable. Soooooo not much for me to do about that, since I'm guessing im gonna be alone till i go to bed, and i wont be there till the morning. Sad!

Anyway, my major issue here, frankly, is the phase change being at maybe the literal most inconvenient hour for me at all possible. It sort of just is what it is. Nyaaaaa


As far as the *game* goes.

I'm concerned wrt mechfuckery wrt the Jan vigi, tho. Yall are in LyLo starting tmr if I'm understanding the situation correctly, so it IS gonna be relevant tmr.

Don't think it's Ladd. Don't think it's sunbae. Cobalt death in that way feels quite weird? Cause like whyyyy? I mean, it makes me nervous about the mechs is all. Like, Jan *presumably* made the kill?

i mean that puts me where: looking at some combination of lissa/visor and then a chance of ender. I'd have outside odd on rask. Rask can be partner with lissa or visor i think just given how uhhhhhhhhhhhhh bad things have gone for the village. meow.

chat, we're cooked. gl in f5 lmao

maple goat