Brainwashing? Christianity seems to be taking weird steps, here at least.

[pevergreen]

I attend, if you did not realise/care () a Lutheran School, as I have for my schooling life (For the next day, last day of school tomorrow!). However, I am agnostic, but I still sit and respect the religion, try to make the best of the good moral lessons that are taught. But lately, there has been a baptist surge in the group of friends at school. I don't have any strong feeling about it one way or the other, but when this youth group started inviting other christians in, then telling them their demoninations were wrong (speicifc incident, daughter of a Chaplain and a Pastor) that her boyfriend was evil, as he did not believe in christ (He's swinging between Aethiest and Agnostic) and they questioned her how she could handle that, it began to annoy me slightly. Then when the "alpha" female (a christian for only the past few months) went to her boyfriend of over a year and said she couldn't choose between him and god, he made the choice for her and left. That annoyed me more, but the sheer stupidity of some of the stuff there...I decided to investigate slightly. I started talking with the female in question, lying outragously. She, however, ate it up and today gave me a list of bible verses I should read and think about. The conversation from last night is in the spoiler (Warning: 6 pages in word)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Nick
we can talk here! its like msn
but without the program
8:25pmSuzanna
mmkay
but just letting you know, I can't stay long
8:26pmNick
ah ok, thats fine :p
8:28pmSuzanna
so what's been going on with you/
?*
8:28pmNick
nothing much really
8:29pmSuzanna
you know God offers a solution to the blackness
8:29pmNick
the bible...has always been there
a lot of parts give me comfort
but i just have trouble. the schools ive been too...all lutheran..it just never clicked
neither did my grandpa's catholic funeral
but the music. and the messages fit
i just...its like theres a missing piece to the puzzle. and i cant find it.
8:30pmSuzanna
what bit don't you understand?
or what bit is missing
8:31pmNick
i dont know whats missing
but theres that god complex thing
if he is omnopotent, why hasnt he wiped out non believers. why does he let cruelty into the world
and things that are just wrong.
child molesters...terrorists... gay people.
i dont admit it to people
gays are just...wrong
lol. we were asked to give our opinion on gay marriage
and if it should be legal or not
in drama
i couldnt answer
because the others wouldnt understand
everyone paid me out
because i refused to put myself on the scale
where everyone else was
at the "allow" end
and i wanted to go to the "NO OFF" section
8:34pmSuzanna
gay people themselves are not wrong - they are still God's creation just like you or I. but they're actions are very, very wrong. they're actions are evil and should not be condoned in anyway.
8:35pmNick
so...if i know someone thats gay...
8:35pmSuzanna
God speaks about it many times in the Bible - and sexual immorality, especially between two men or two women, is one of the worst sins.
you should love them as a person, but do not let yourself be influenced by their sinful ways. pray for them - ask God to show them the truth of their actions
8:37pmNick
mmm you're right.
but i dont want to keep you, do you need to go?
8:37pmSuzanna
I can stay a bit longer
8:38pmNick
ok. that would be nice, could you answer a question thats been plauging me?
8:39pmSuzanna
ask me, but I can't promise an answer
8:39pmNick
ok
what about thoughts of 'that' nature.
and what about kissing and stuff outside of a relationship? is that moral?
8:40pmSuzanna
hmm, that's a hard question, but it's an important one
God's pretty clear about one thing in the Bible - sex should be within marriage. but as for other things, like kissing/touching, he doesn't make direct reference to it
8:40pmNick
so thinking about doing something like that with a nice girl is ok?
and possibly doing it?
8:41pmSuzanna
The Bible says "everyone who looks at a women with lustful intent has already commited adultery with her in his heart."
so basically, if the girl is not yours, i.e. you're not married to her, you shouldn't be lusting after her.
8:41pmNick
hmm
8:42pmSuzanna
respect her all you will, be friends with her for sure, but don't lust after her
especially if she's with another guy. coz that's lust and covetousness
8:42pmNick
so, to be rightful, it must be a relationship before anything happens?
8:43pmSuzanna
its complicated.
even if you were in a relationship with a girl
she might not be the one you plan on spending the rest of your life with
in that case, she's probably not the girl that God has planned for you
therefore she is planned for another guy
8:44pmNick
that makes sense.
8:44pmSuzanna
so anything you do with her, is a part of her that she gives to you, and not to the guy that she is meant to be with
and the same goes for you: everything you give to her, is something less of yourself you can give to the woman you marry.
but the great thing is, nothing is impossible for God
8:45pmNick
so, we will always end up with the right person?
8:45pmSuzanna
only if you listen to God
coz God has a plan for you, but unless you listen to him, you might follow your own sinful desires.
8:46pmNick
how do i hear him?
8:46pmSuzanna
you pray to him. you read his word. you listen to his teachings
you talk to other Christians
but mostly you pray. ask him to give you wisdom.
8:47pmNick
what about things that i've done in the past.
should i just pray for forgiveness?
8:47pmSuzanna
well there's a few steps involved.
firstly, you have to acknowledge that you have sinned.
then you have to repent.
that doesn't just mean saying sorry
it's means saying sorry, and then turning away from your sin and towards righteousness.
you need to accept Jesus into your life, as your Saviour
8:49pmNick
seems like righteousness isnt easy to attain.
8:49pmSuzanna
that is very true
because we as humans are sinful
but God is perfect
and all powerful
and he can do anything
so if you ask for his strength
he will strengthen you and help you lead a righteous life
but first you must accept Jesus into your life: Romans 10:9 "because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
saved meaning not only eternal life, but also forgiveness for your sins
8:51pmNick
something that i would very much like.
alright, thank you so much for this, but two more questions, if i may
8:51pmSuzanna
sure
go ahead
8:51pmNick
did you ever have lustful intent with ****(Her boyfriend)?
and, is there a point to a relationship if its not the person you will marry? and what happens if you are too ignorant to read the signs?
im worried about that suzanna. i dont want to miss the signs.
8:53pmSuzanna
Nick, God wants your happiness.
he's not gonna let you marry the wrong girl without putting up a fight
look, do you want to have a chat at school tomorrow? there are a couple of verses in the Bible I'd like to show you
8:54pmNick
that would be great.
8:54pmSuzanna
awesome :D
8:54pmNick
ok, i should go finish off some work
you sleep well suzanna.

I would just like to assure everyone, that I, Nick, do not agree with any of the views that I "have" in this conversation.

I am going to attempt to find out more by attending the "bible study group".

My question is this, however, is the outright hostility they show towards not only other faiths, but other demoninations, and their overwhelming desire to CONVERT CONVERT CONVERT acceptable in this day and age and is it a true representation of other christian groups throughout the world?

pever.

Edit: Forgot to take the bad language out. Sorry for anyone who read and was offended. Thanks for covering Banquo. silly pever.

[HoreTore]

My question is this, however, is the outright hostility they show towards not only other faiths, but other demoninations, and their overwhelming desire to CONVERT CONVERT CONVERT acceptable in this day and age and is it a true representation of other christian groups throughout the world?

It's not acceptable to me at least. I can have a discussion, that's all fine, but I won't have any missionary stuff. Try that, and I'll ignore/ridicule/insult/try to make you cry.

As for whether other christian groups do the same around the world, the answer is clearly yes. While all/most christianity is missionary, there are certain churches who are completely and utterly engulfed in it, and they are completely desperate to convert everyone to their belief, with an extreme intolerance for any other beliefs. All means seem to justify the end. Most people point and laugh, though.

[CountArach]

It's not acceptable to me at least. I can have a discussion, that's all fine, but I won't have any missionary stuff. Try that, and I'll ignore/ridicule/insult/try to make you cry.

QFT

[Fragony]

It's not acceptable to me at least. I can have a discussion, that's all fine, but I won't have any missionary stuff. Try that, and I'll ignore/ridicule/insult/try to make you cry.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I like how you're having a mini-reformation at your school.

The Baptists have always been nuts, ever since Munster.

Anyway, they're all wrong since in fact only 5-point Calvinism is correct and you must accept it now or you'll burn in hell!

Seriously though, people sometimes get confused into thinking that they are meant to actually save people, whereas they are instead meant only to preach, and the elect will be drawn. Therefore, if you're evangelising then you should try to preach at least once to the people you come across on your missionary project or whatever, but if people like HoreTore seem adamant then its best just to leave them alone before they start complaining and giving Christianity a bad name to everyone.

[Ronin]

I recommend you contact your local mental health intitutions....this seems like a job for them.

[CountArach]

if people like HoreTore seem adamant then its best just to leave them alone before they start complaining and giving Christianity a bad name to everyone.

It does a good enough job on its own.

/troll

EDIT 1: By the way pever I found your mistake that led to the entire conversation:
"i just...its like theres a missing piece to the puzzle. and i cant find it."

Wrong line completely if you don't want to be bible-bashed.

EDIT 2: Lol, this discussion is the gift that just keeps giving... she made up the word "covetousness"... awesome...

EDIT 3:but God is perfect
and all powerful
and he can do anything

Correct response: "Could he create a stone so heavy..."

[Rhyfelwyr]

It does a good enough job on its own.

/troll

So do the ban the bomb crew. I know, lets protest against big government abusing human rights and being violent and creating nuclear weapons... by rioting with USSR flags!!!111

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a troll for a troll

[CountArach]

So do the ban the bomb crew. I know, lets protest against big government abusing human rights and being violent and creating nuclear weapons... by rioting with USSR flags!!!111

When was the last time someone did that? 1988?

[Rhyfelwyr]

When was the last time someone did that? 1988?

My Uni had a similar protest last year, because some US gov't guy was visiting. In the end they cancelled it.

[Sigurd]

[...]That annoyed me more, but the sheer stupidity of some of the stuff there...I decided to investigate slightly. I started talking with the female in question, lying outragously. She, however, ate it up and today gave me a list of bible verses I should read and think about.
[...]
I am going to attempt to find out more by attending the "bible study group".

So ... you are posing as a Christian, because ... ?
I am curious as to which verses she gave you.

My question is this, however, is the outright hostility they show towards not only other faiths, but other denominations, and their overwhelming desire to CONVERT CONVERT CONVERT acceptable in this day and age and is it a true representation of other Christian groups throughout the world?

If you knew Christianity, you would realize that despite being a doomsday sect of Judaism, Missionary work was important. Spreading the word and gaining followers has been adamant since its formation.
In fact what we know about the early church is CONVERT, CONVERT, CONVERT and EXPAND, EXPAND, EXPAND.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Seriously though, people sometimes get confused into thinking that they are meant to actually save people, whereas they are instead meant only to preach, and the elect will be drawn. Therefore, if you're evangelising then you should try to preach at least once to the people you come across on your missionary project or whatever, but if people like HoreTore seem adamant then its best just to leave them alone before they start complaining and giving Christianity a bad name to everyone.

Doctrine not Scripture, it's eliteist, and it absolves you of responsibility.

I live with an atheist, he's an intelligent chap, we have had a lot of discussions about the nature of faith. would I like to convert him, well actually I'd like to convert everyone because I believe I've got the right end of the stick.

HOWEVER, these people, and Rhyfelwyr, seem to think they have the whole stick. The only person with the whole stick in the Bible is God.

I could go on about different doctrinal issues and what I have reasoned from my own study, I could rank Churches according to how they tally with my beliefs but I think that would be impious because it would assume a primacy and accuracy to my views for which I have no support. If someone is a genuinely confessing Christian that's enough for me, be they baptist, Catholic, Anglican or Methodist.

HOWEVER, when I come across fanatics who claim the inerracy of a book they have never read then I will argue against them as strongly as I possibly can. We have such a group, the "Evangelical Christian Union" here in Exeter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ow/6172852.stm

http://catholicactionuk.blogspot.com...d-muslims.html

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/content.asp?id=48650

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...ation.students

Some of this is 2 or three years old but just a couple of weeks ago they tried to get the SU's Equal-Ops policy changed to allow them to discriminate against students with different beliefs.

[Strike For The South]

We are coming to eat your children no use stopping us.

ESPECIALLY US BAPTISTS NO DRINKING NO DANCING

The girl should've told the "alpha" to jog on and shove it. Thats how this ends. Some of you are lol.

[Kongamato]

At your age, many kids are hungry for something to live and die for, and often follow the group or a leader. You have said that school is nearly over for you. At or near this stage in life one has to make a lot of decisions about one's future or career, and this can often result in confusion or stress. These kids have been presented with something that instantly provides answers for all of their questions along with a mission and purpose. You can expect their zealousness to fade after some time, after which they'll start acting more normal again.

[lars573]

^I've heard it said that new converts to a religion need about 5 years to calm down and be normal again. Now granted it was from a TV show and the character saying it was a muslim.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Doctrine not Scripture, it's eliteist, and it absolves you of responsibility.

Responsibility to preach or to save? There's a big difference. From my understanding of the scripture, it seems that only God can bring people to salvation. Christians are taught to preach to everyone and those who will accept God's grace will listen. Calvinists have often been accused of failing to spread the word and making people think that they cannot be saved but this is simply not true.

However, if I were to say that I brought someone to salvation purely by preaching to them, then that would be wrong. God should only ever have total credit for bringing people to salvation.

I live with an atheist, he's an intelligent chap, we have had a lot of discussions about the nature of faith. would I like to convert him, well actually I'd like to convert everyone because I believe I've got the right end of the stick.

I would like to convert everyone too, if you mean by this persuade another Christian of my specific beliefs? Although it wouldn't be vital, and I wouldn't push them over it. If an atheist were to accept my beliefs - then that would be excellent, although I don't think I would be in a position to take the credit.

HOWEVER, these people, and Rhyfelwyr, seem to think they have the whole stick. The only person with the whole stick in the Bible is God.

Of course, I have my interpretation of the Bible just as everyone else does. I believe it to be correct, as presumably everyone does with their beliefs. I could not say for sure though on the complicated doctrinal matters, only the basics that all Christians share.

I could go on about different doctrinal issues and what I have reasoned from my own study, I could rank Churches according to how they tally with my beliefs but I think that would be impious because it would assume a primacy and accuracy to my views for which I have no support. If someone is a genuinely confessing Christian that's enough for me, be they baptist, Catholic, Anglican or Methodist.

Of course, if you ask for forgiveness for your sins then it doesn't matter what you do afterwards. Of course, good works are a sign of salvation. If you believe they are necessary for salvation, well that's just adding stuff but it doesn't really matter when you're standing at the gates of Heaven I suppose.

[Husar]

Hmm, usually here churches try to work together, not run around telling the others that their slight variations of interpretation are completely wrong.
The goal of course is to show the love of god to as many people as possible, christians would be heartless bastards if they'd just watch how everybody goes to hell, of course they try to convert people because they are convinced that they know a better way to live life than the atheist way.

If they were not absolutely convinced of that, then they wouldn't be believers in the first place, simple as that. And of course intolerant atheists are annoyed by those conversion attempts because it's not like the media was advertising atheist agendas everywhere that christians might not like their kids to see or anything, but of course that is because atheists are convinced that their way of life is the correct/better one.

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Pever, I have to say that the similarity to the end of my school life was similar (though not quite as drastic).

Basically I am an atheist, but I've no quarrel with people of a religious bent trying, and failing to persuade me, so long as they aren't fanatical about it (ie: You are going to burn in hell, listen to me or be eternally damned... etc.etc.).

Attending a Catholic school, most of the students were not actually all that religious, but I did notice that, at least among my religion class (it was compulsory...) towards the end of year twelve, a number of people were beginning to get sucked in. I mean our teacher was very devout, but also accepting of others opinions, many lessons disintegrated into debates about the nature of faith, me and one other girl taking the atheistic/agnostic side, and three others, and the teacher taking a Catholic viewpoint while everyone else just watched.

Essentially I agree with Kongamato. You're about to leave school, so there is going to be a lot of change in your life in a short period of time. People try to cling to something to keep as a comfort. They will get over it, eventually.

That said it is interesting, and somewhat scary, how people can so quickly espouse radical beliefs that they haven't held before. That can be somewhat dangerous, as you can't tell if they've actually thought through what they are saying and trying to get other people to say. Then again so long as the girl doesn't start abusing homosexuals it is all harmless.

I'd also be interested in what verses she gave you to read. While I don't believe, I'm always interested in what moral and ethical codes such 'reborn' people hold. (This isn't a criticism of such people, merely the only way I could think of putting it. Sorry to anyone of a religious background who may be offended...)

[pevergreen]

I was posing as a Christian to see if I could get into this bible study group, and to make the ex-boyfriend feel better.

The verses I was given:
Romans 1:20
Romans 3:22-24
Romans 5:8
Romans 6:22-23
Romans 8:1-2
Romans 10:9
Romans 12:1-2
1 John 5:4
Psalm 37:d
Ephesians 4:1-2
Ephesians 5:11
Colossians 3:5
Matthew 5:28
Matthew 7:13-14

@CA: I wanted this to happen, ever since the youth "pastor" came to our Lutheran Chapel as part of our Lutheran Faith Week, and tried to get us to realise Lutheran-ism was wrong, and convince us that jesus did not exist, I have just slowly come to loath them.

[AlexanderSextus]

"everyone who looks at a women with lustful intent has already commited adultery with her in his heart."
so basically, if the girl is not yours, i.e. you're not married to her, you shouldn't be lusting after her.

Fornication is NOT adultery. As a matter of fact, i really dont think that Fornication is what we say it is nowadays.

The etymolygy of fornication as a word is that it comes from the latin "fornix" meaning arch, because the Hookers would stand under the arches waiting for "customers"

Ergo, the prohibitions against "fornication" in the bible could be a prohibition against PROSTITUTION rather than sex with your girlfriend.

[AlexanderSextus]

they're actions are very, very wrong. they're actions are evil and should not be condoned in anyway.

I really wanna know how christians deal with pictures of male animals having sex with eachother. Do goats go to hell? Do Dogs? Penguins? Monkeys? Do we go to hell for thinking it's hilarious when we see it at the zoo?

It happens all the time. look it up on google.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Responsibility to preach or to save? There's a big difference. From my understanding of the scripture, it seems that only God can bring people to salvation. Christians are taught to preach to everyone and those who will accept God's grace will listen. Calvinists have often been accused of failing to spread the word and making people think that they cannot be saved but this is simply not true.

Responsibility to preach coherently and intelligently, not to say "Convert or burn" with a big megaphone and walk off.

However, if I were to say that I brought someone to salvation purely by preaching to them, then that would be wrong. God should only ever have total credit for bringing people to salvation.

He gets credit for everything, including your continued heartbeat and the electrical impulses in your brain. If you want scripture read Acts, particually the bit about Philip and the Eunauch.

I would like to convert everyone too, if you mean by this persuade another Christian of my specific beliefs? Although it wouldn't be vital, and I wouldn't push them over it. If an atheist were to accept my beliefs - then that would be excellent, although I don't think I would be in a position to take the credit.

I mean generally, my specific beliefs are something I am constantly developing, so I won't try to impress them on anyone else, though I am more than happy to share them.

Of course, I have my interpretation of the Bible just as everyone else does. I believe it to be correct, as presumably everyone does with their beliefs. I could not say for sure though on the complicated doctrinal matters, only the basics that all Christians share.

Look back particually at what I quoted before the concept of the "elect" is a minoriety one, at least in the way you use it. Traditionally it refers to those whom God has especially chosen, not the entirety of the Saved.

Of course, if you ask for forgiveness for your sins then it doesn't matter what you do afterwards. Of course, good works are a sign of salvation. If you believe they are necessary for salvation, well that's just adding stuff but it doesn't really matter when you're standing at the gates of Heaven I suppose.

Of course?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Responsibility to preach coherently and intelligently, not to say "Convert or burn" with a big megaphone and walk off.

True.

He gets credit for everything, including your continued heartbeat and the electrical impulses in your brain. If you want scripture read Acts, particually the bit about Philip and the Eunauch.

True.

I mean generally, my specific beliefs are something I am constantly developing, so I won't try to impress them on anyone else, though I am more than happy to share them.

OK.

Look back particually at what I quoted before the concept of the "elect" is a minoriety one, at least in the way you use it. Traditionally it refers to those whom God has especially chosen, not the entirety of the Saved.

I mean the elect as in the priesthood of all believers. Do you mean that not all those who are saved are predestined to that fate by God?

Of course?

???

Apart from the last couple of paragraphs, are we even arguing?

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

Having looked up and read some of these Bible passages, in the main they seem to be supporting what she wants to say, ie:

1) Sex is evil. Colossians 3:5. Matthew 5:28.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So put to death your worldly impulses: sexual sin, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed (which is idolatry). Colossians 3:5.
But I say to you, anyone who stares at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28.

2) We are all sinners. Romans 3:22-24. Matthew 7:13-14.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; Romans 3:22-24.
“Go in through the narrow gate, because the gate is wide and the road is spacious that leads to destruction, and many people are entering by it. How narrow is the gate and how constricted is the road that leads to life, and there aren’t many people who find it!” Matthew 7:13-14.

3) Her way is the only true salvation (unbelievers and heathens like me are doomed...) and this is manifestly obvious.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Romans 10:9.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20.

In other words she has selcted particular sections with the aim of convincing you that she is right. Which is fine.

Now to counteract that find some verses that support her ex's/your side/ a different viewpoint to hers. Then you can get some discussion going.

Anyways much of what she told you to read is, in my opinion either wrong - even many of my Christian friends say that God is not 'clearly seen and understood': or more to the point out-dated or open to interpretation as Alexander Sextus points out above. I wouldn't pay overly much attention to it.

[Sigurd]

Her use of Romans is the standard born-again mini version of the gospel of Christ.

If you read them chronologically as they are in pever's post, it starts out with God exists, just look at all creations around you.
Then skipping chapter 2 which states that every man shall be judged according to his deeds and onto chapter 3 and the important "following the mosaic law will not save you, only faith in Christ's atonement will", adding chapter 5 as emphasis to 3.
From faith comes redemption from sin (skipping the baptism parts intentionally?) using 6:22-23 and adding emphasis with chapter 8.
The big one is 10:9 which is the "speak his name and you are saved".

Yes she is trying to convert you ...

About the fornication vs. adultery issue.
Yes the word is from the prostitutes soliciting their warez under the arches, but the semantics is traditionally held as sex between unmarried people. When married people have sex outside wedlock it becomes adultery.
At the time of the new testament, fornication was meant by unmarried women having sex with men. The men's marital status was not considered.

[rvg]

Can't we all just get along?.....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

True.



True.



OK.



I mean the elect as in the priesthood of all believers. Do you mean that not all those who are saved are predestined to that fate by God?



???

Apart from the last couple of paragraphs, are we even arguing?

We are agueing about predestination, but not much else. Mostly I want you to sit back and digest what your minister tells you slowly, because you clearly have the intelligence to do so.

--------

Romans is an interesting kettle of fish, because it can be seen in two seperate ways. If you believe the Bible is the WORD of God in it's entireity it has to be swallowed like the bitter pill that it is, if you believe the Bible is the best effort of 300 Bishops to sort out the mess of their religion then Paul is just the original Evangelical Bishop and his words can only be supportive of the Gospel, they cannot be used to prove doctrine.

[Sigurd]

We are arguing about predestination, but not much else.

Predestination ... that absurd doctrine about fate. Too Viking for my taste.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Predestination ... that absurd doctrine about fate. Too Viking for my taste.

Hah!

Seriously though, I know I said just last week I don't believe in it, certainly not in the "every man has a fate" way it appears in Calvinism or Islam.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hah!

Seriously though, I know I said just last week I don't believe in it, certainly not in the "every man has a fate" way it appears in Calvinism or Islam.

I have minimal knowledge regarding Islam, but I heard that Muslims believe that all people are created good, and are only corrupted by this world, and its up to the individual to 'stay true'. Whereas of course with Calvinism you believe all people are born sinners, and God saves those who He chooses without conditions, at least regarding what we do in this lifetime.