Great Britain is not an Island

[Ronin]

How many western European countries can claim to having changed from direct rule by a monarch to rule by a democratic parliament without blood being shed?

As others have mentioned, it was Britain which led the fight against the slave trade, banning it before any of the other major powers. A rather courageous step and one to be proud of.

Like it has already been stated Portugal banned the slave trade before England.

Also...Portugal went from a Fascist dictatorship government to a democracy through a bloodless revolution...not the same thing you were asking but close...

I must admit we killed our king

also we where one of the first 3 countries in Europe to abolish the death penalty .....ok..now I´m just bragging

[JR-]

Like it has already been stated Portugal banned the slave trade before England.

Also...Portugal went from a Fascist dictatorship government to a democracy through a bloodless revolution...not the same thing you were asking but close...

I must admit we killed our king

also we where one of the first 3 countries in Europe to abolish the death penalty .....ok..now I´m just bragging

debatable whether that is necessarily a good thing, many nations think otherwise........

[Ronin]

I live here and I say that for me it is a very good thing indeed.

people that live elsewhere can do as they please...it´s not my concern.....they are wrong of course.. but it´s not my concern.

[Louis VI the Fat]

My principle point is that Britian is indeed different in part due to our geography

This, as it happens, is my principal point as well. However, to put it bluntly, the whole of British national identity is based on two erroneous beliefs:

1 - Britain is 'different'. That's why: Europe = the Continent + the UK.
2 - This difference is based on Britain's different geography, being an island.


Both are false. Here goes:

1 - The one thing that sets Britain apart from the rest of Europe is Britain's extreme and singularly stubborn nationalism.

All national identities in Europe are based on the formula: 'Europe is divided in two. Us and everybody else.' This IS Europe. Fifty, or maybe five hundred, very different cultures whose one thing in common is that none have much in common with the others. Britain is exactly the same as all the others in this regard. The Scandinavians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Iberians, the Poles, the Russians - all of their national identities share Britain's formula. The Italians speak of a Europe divided in two, Cisalpina and Transalpina, Europe below and beyond the Alps. The Basques think that they are the single odd one out, based on their language and isolated position: Europe = Basque + the others. Etcetera.

Paradoxically, being unique is not unique. Instead, uniqueness is the very norm in Europe.

The three aspects in which Britain does differ from other European (or US) regions in this regard are that in Britain this is taken completely seriously, it goes virtually unoppossed in public debate, and it is often mindlessly repeated even in academic circles.



2 - Because Britain is geographically an island, located where it is, Britain is the last country that can make a serious claim to the formula 'Europe = us + the others'.

2.1 The island of Great Britian is not at all a unique European geographical feature.

Italy is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Italy is an island.
Iberia is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Iberia is an island
Scandinavia is impossible to reach overland. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Sweden and Norway are islands.
The Mediterranean is full of islands. All consider themselves quite different from ‘the continent’.
In the North, Sjaelland (Denmark), Iceland, the Faroer, Ireland are islands as well.
Greece, with all it's peninsula's and islands is sea based. Pretty much a collection of islands and virtual islands.

The point? Half of Europe is an island. Better: Europe IS this peculiar collection of peninsulas, peninsulas of peninsulas, and islands. There is nothing whatsoever special about Britains geographical circumstance. It is, on the contrary, the norm for most of Europe. Again, all these countries think they are the odd one out, that they are the ones who are different from 'the mainland'. But nowhere is this idea taken to such extremities as in Britain.

2.2 Historically, water is not a barrier, but a highway.
Isolated and different are places without access to water, not the other way round. For some inexplicable reason, even serious British historians overlook this mechanism. A mechanism that has been common knownledge since antiquity.
Not until the middle of the 19th century, and for most purposes, until the middle of the 20th century, did this mechanism change. Only trains and cars have made meaningful overland trade and travel possible. Before this very recent development, being an island meant one was anything but insular. As witnessed by Britain's history, which has always been in perfect synchronisation with its neighbours overseas.

2.3 Following on the part above: because of it’s convenient location in the heart of Europe and the easy and uninterrupted flow of communication of persons, goods and ideas to and fro Britain, England and the south of Scotland belong to Europe's core*. Therefore, Britain is part of the definition of Europe, and can logically hence make no claim to being different from Europe. What is part of a definition, can not claim to be outside of it.
*See, for example, Immanuel Wallerstein and Fernand Braudel.

It is because of these three aspects that Great Britain is not an island. Island, in the definition of insular and seprated from a main body. Save for the narrowest geographical sense of the word, Great Britain is not an island.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Like it has already been stated Portugal banned the slave trade before England.

Also...Portugal went from a Fascist dictatorship government to a democracy through a bloodless revolution...not the same thing you were asking but close...

I must admit we killed our king

also we where one of the first 3 countries in Europe to abolish the death penalty .....ok..now I´m just bragging

This is exactly the point.

Portugal is a singular country and a has followed a unique historical path. This is owing to Portugal being geographically seperate from the continent.

Peripheral and sharing a land border with only one other country, Portugal naturally looked to the sea. Portugal has build itself a trading empire in America, Africa, India and a single city in China. Portuguese history is that of seafaring, of a unique political history. It is only half European, and half looking overseas. Because of this unique historical path owing to its unique location, Portugal is very different from mainland Europe.

Sounds familiar?

[JR-]

This, as it happens, is my principal point as well. However, to put it bluntly, the whole of British national identity is based on two erroneous beliefs:

1 - Britain is 'different'. That's why: Europe = the Continent + the UK.
2 - This difference is based on Britain's different geography, being an island.


Both are false. Here goes:

1 - The one thing that sets Britain apart from the rest of Europe is Britain's extreme and singularly stubborn nationalism.

All national identities in Europe are based on the formula: 'Europe is divided in two. Us and everybody else.' This IS Europe. Fifty, or maybe five hundred, very different cultures whose one thing in common is that none have much in common with the others. Britain is exactly the same as all the others in this regard. The Scandinavians, the Italians, the Greeks, the Iberians, the Poles, the Russians - all of their national identities share Britain's formula. The Italians speak of a Europe divided in two, Cisalpina and Transalpina, Europe below and beyond the Alps. The Basques think that they are the single odd one out, based on their language and isolated position: Europe = Basque + the others. Etcetera.

Paradoxically, being unique is not unique. Instead, uniqueness is the very norm in Europe.

The three aspects in which Britain does differ from other European (or US) regions in this regard are that in Britain this is taken completely seriously, it goes virtually unoppossed in public debate, and it is often mindlessly repeated even in academic circles.



2 - Because Britain is geographically an island, located where it is, Britain is the last country that can make a serious claim to the formula 'Europe = us + the others'.

2.1 The island of Great Britian is not at all a unique European geographical feature.

Italy is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Italy is an island.
Iberia is seperated form 'the continent' by an impregnable mountain range. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Iberia is an island
Scandinavia is impossible to reach overland. Trade and travel must go over sea. For all intent and purposes, Sweden and Norway are islands.
The Mediterranean is full of islands. All consider themselves quite different from ‘the continent’.
In the North, Sjaelland (Denmark), Iceland, the Faroer, Ireland are islands as well.
Greece, with all it's peninsula's and islands is sea based. Pretty much a collection of islands and virtual islands.

The point? Half of Europe is an island. Better: Europe IS this peculiar collection of peninsulas, peninsulas of peninsulas, and islands. There is nothing whatsoever special about Britains geographical circumstance. It is, on the contrary, the norm for most of Europe. Again, all these countries think they are the odd one out, that they are the ones who are different from 'the mainland'. But nowhere is this idea taken to such extremities as in Britain.

2.2 Historically, water is not a barrier, but a highway.
Isolated and different are places without access to water, not the other way round. For some inexplicable reason, even serious British historians overlook this mechanism. A mechanism that has been common knownledge since antiquity.
Not until the middle of the 19th century, and for most purposes, until the middle of the 20th century, did this mechanism change. Only trains and cars have made meaningful overland trade and travel possible. Before this very recent development, being an island meant one was anything but insular. As witnessed by Britain's history, which has always been in perfect synchronisation with its neighbours overseas.

2.3 Following on the part above: because of it’s convenient location in the heart of Europe and the easy and uninterrupted flow of communication of persons, goods and ideas to and fro Britain, England and the south of Scotland belong to Europe's core*. Therefore, Britain is part of the definition of Europe, and can logically hence make no claim to being different from Europe. What is part of a definition, can not claim to be outside of it.
*See, for example, Immanuel Wallerstein and Fernand Braudel.

It is because of these three aspects that Great Britain is not an island. Island, in the definition of insular and seprated from a main body. Save for the narrowest geographical sense of the word, Great Britain is not an island.

wah wah wah.

the two things you keep on repeating:
1. the conflation of europe and the EU.
i have never denied the former, but the latter is nothing but a construct to bridge the differences between some of those european nations.
2. that Britain alone is contrary, yes perhaps we are, why are you unwilling to leave us alone in our contrariness?
i have given you lots of reasons as to why britain remains un-enamoured of the EU project, and yet you persist in characterising it as some psychological deficiency. maybe you should just accept that we are in fact a little different and that difference is primarily expressed by a refusual to conflate europe with the EU.

europe is not the EU.
recognising one does not mean legitimising the other.
Britain does not need the EU the way some continental nations need the EU, have you noticed that we don't care very much about it, or is that just another example of the British pathology?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am not talking about the EU. If there was not an EU at all, I would have made the exact same post above.

I think that a British national identity based on the idea 'singular and unique, owing to being an island' dates from the nineteenth century. Well before any EU.
Splendid Isolation is a political, strategical impulse that lives on in another guise. In the national conciousness as a part of national identity, and simoultanously as an explanation for this identity.


As for the EU, the UK is of course completely free to make up its own mind about whether it either should be in the EU or whether it shouldn't remain apart from the EU.

[Strike For The South]

Francophilia runs rampant in this thread.

[Incongruous]

I am not talking about the EU. If there was not an EU at all, I would have made the exact same post above.

I think that a British national identity based on the idea 'singular and unique, owing to being an island' dates from the nineteenth century. Well before any EU.
Splendid Isolation is a political, strategical impulse that lives on in another guise. In the national conciousness as a part of national identity, and simoultanously as an explanation for this identity.


As for the EU, the UK is of course completely free to make up its own mind about whether it either should be in the EU or whether it shouldn't remain apart from the EU.

So what is the point of this thread?
Comes across as smug sniping behind a Parisian curtain.

Britain is different to Europe the same way Russia is, France however has always very much been the center of Europe, with the occasional stand up of Spain and Germany. Perhaps your own society's centrality has lead to your own misunderstanding of our situation?

You see, you can cry and cry about how unfair it is that we see ourselves as apart in some way and measure form EUrope, and claim in your loudest voice that the longstanding fact of the isle of Great Britain is a fallacy, but it will not change a thing.

If you know this (which I expect you do), then this thread was started with a malicious intent, nothing more, and I would be willing to start up another in response, would you care to dance?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Louis, I pay tribute to some of the finest posts you have made. Fascinating thesis, eloquently argued.

It is also interesting to note the degree of hostility the idea has provoked. Roll on the Six Nations when we islanders can play rugger without interference from those beastly foreigners.

[JR-]

I am not talking about the EU. If there was not an EU at all, I would have made the exact same post above.

I think that a British national identity based on the idea 'singular and unique, owing to being an island' dates from the nineteenth century. Well before any EU.
Splendid Isolation is a political, strategical impulse that lives on in another guise. In the national conciousness as a part of national identity, and simoultanously as an explanation for this identity.


As for the EU, the UK is of course completely free to make up its own mind about whether it either should be in the EU or whether it shouldn't remain apart from the EU.

as Bopa said; "then what is the point of this thread?"

it sprang directly from the - is it time for Britain to enter the euro thread, where i spent a great deal of time pointing out that economic union must lead to greater political union, and given that we didn't want or need political union and there was no economic net benefit to economic union, then in fact Britain was better off outside of both.

so what you say you are argueing is:
a) that we are in fact europeans - guess what, nobody has disagreed and certainly not me.
b) our past strategic policy has left the British mindset insular - perhaps so but i would say that it leaves us well conditioned to cope with the realities of Britain's strategic position today.

but we didn't really have an argument about european'ness did we, you were trying to build a construct to justify your view that Britain is perverse in not loving the EU project, aren't you?

[Brenus]

“How many western European countries can claim to having changed from direct rule by a monarch to rule by a democratic parliament without blood being shed?” So John Lack Land did sign the Magna Charta because he was a good chap and Cromwell wasn’t so evil at last…

“As others have mentioned, it was Britain which led the fight against the slave trade, banning it before any of the other major powers. A rather courageous step and one to be proud of.” After the 1st French Revolution abolished it (reinstalled by Napoleon of course) and Portugal as well apparently… Ah, History and dates…

“that's heads above” was probably what Louis XVI was thinking the 13th of July 1789.

England is not an Island by geography. England is probably the Monarchy which had so many none English kings.
The channel wasn’t real a fence stopping incursion and invasions if I follow what they say in History Channel. One of the most famous King of England own his throne to French mercenaries landed by a French fleet.
It wasn’t foreign armies landing in England, but English Armies landing on the Continent, protected from defeat by a narrow piece of sea…
However, all “European” influences crossed easily the Channel, from Victor Hugo to Marx.

But England is an Island in the mind of the British. Whatever it cost: the Pound which cut UK from main market, the fact that 80% of the trade is within Europe.
Reality is English buying properties in France, Spain and Croatia thanks to EU is not enough to convince the English EU is good for them. England being out of EU perhaps it would be possible to ban their very dangerous cars with the driving wheel at the wrong place to roam EU roads…

For what I remember EU didn’t asked UK to join. De Gaulle was against UK to join EU. It wasn’t IMPOSED on the UK.

It is fun to hear on a English Radio Station sentences like “to morrow I’ll go to Europe”. It is what some think.

[JR-]

But England is an Island in the mind of the British. Whatever it cost: the Pound which cut UK from main market, the fact that 80% of the trade is within Europe.

[edit] screwed up [/edit]
about 40/60 in goods.

[JR-]

I did not manage to find those numbers either.

I couldn't even find these numbers, and am happy you did. Your Google-fu beat mine.


I am looking forward to the numbers for services with confidence, though.

Maybe the UK government realised that they were made up for a large part by Britain's finance and banking sector, and quickly erased all trace of them from the books.

I think i have an answer at last, courtesy of the Office of National Statistics, and it is one-half rather than four-fifths:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=72

The EU represents 52.42% of the total value of trade conducted by Britain. :)

I wonder how that compares with EU nations as a percentage value of total trade within and without the EU?