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Thread: Surprisingly bad units

  1. #211

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...
    I've NEVER seen that. Hippeis are possibly the crappiest cavalry in the game: they can barely rout Akontistai without losses, let alone Hastati.

  2. #212
    Βασιλευς και Αυτοκρατωρ Αρχης Member Centurio Nixalsverdrus's Avatar
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    Default AW: Surprisingly bad units

    Overhand-spear cavalry generally sucks. What can you do with them besides chasing routers? Even Asiatikoi Hippeis with their axes suck in comparison to similarly equipped cavalry that uses its spear underhand.

  3. #213
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Hippies always beat hastati in a headlong charge!!! hastati is the crappest crap for the romans... even Rorarii is better than them...
    What battle difficulty are you playing at? Battle difficulty higher than medium gives insane attack bonuses to the A.I., thus completely throwing off units balance. This cannot be modded, unfortunately, so the recommended battle difficulty for EB is medium.
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  4. #214
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Medium... just place your hippeis in 2 horse deep formation, in the front of a line full of hastati, charge them, and they'll send half of the hastati flying without wings....

    Hastati is only good when you face all-crap infantry line (consists of spearmen), but why bulit hastati if you can get princeps with a bit more investment and maintenence costs?

    But now I solve the problem myself, I cut the hastati's wage down to 200, and now they're worhwhile troops...

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  5. #215

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    but why bulit hastati if you can get princeps with a bit more investment and maintenence costs?
    Why training them? Because they were the less experienced part of the roman troops and training them is realistic and you can see that we want realism, as we are playing a realism mod. Else we wouldn't do it, would we?

    By the way, I don't think Hastati are surprisingly bad. They are supposed to be worse than Principes and who would be surprised about that?
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  6. #216
    master of the wierd people Member Ibrahim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    I'm surprised that many think hastati are bad (surprisingly so). granted, stats are garbage, but these guys will help you win, in a surprising way: they can tire the enemy out in a fight, reducing their effectiveness, and letting the Principes do their thing with fewer losses. Just like real life. they are thus doing exactly what they're supposed to: act like cannon fodder.

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  7. #217
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cute Wolf View Post
    Medium... just place your hippeis in 2 horse deep formation, in the front of a line full of hastati, charge them, and they'll send half of the hastati flying without wings....
    In my experience, ordinary hippeis are crap chargers. Prodromoi could do this perhaps, but not hippeis, and certainly not when the hastati are standing still and bracing themselves for a charge. Sure, with repeated charges and enough patience, the hippeis will eventually rout them but not before losing a significant number of men, probably more than it costs to recruit a new unit of hastati.
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  8. #218
    Near East TW Mod Leader Member Cute Wolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    They are way too expensive if you want a worthwhile salary for their work... I suspect that 200(ca)/200(po) minai is sufficient salary for them, rather than 252(ca)/267(po) minai... it was true they are here for historical reasons, but did it historical to had their salary levels as high as princepes? 262(ca)/296(po).... anyway, if you recreating those same - level salary, you just recreate the vanilla conditions of hastati...

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  9. #219

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Stop being mean to the Hastati! They are a decent enough unit and equivalent to light infantry. They have a job and they do it well, so they aren't "surprisingly bad" (I don't think they're bad at all).

    Also, the Roman army consisted of citizen soldiers, so I was under the belief that they were only paid wages if they were away for a long time. (I once read Livy a long long time ago)
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  10. #220
    Lurking since the Dawn of Time Member SpawnOfEbil's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Prodromoi make all other cavalry obsolete (until Hetaroi at least)...

    controversial statement i know ;)

  11. #221

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Prodromoi are frustratingly good units. I want to mix up my cavalry squadrons, but you can use all prodromoi until Hetairoi.

    Hastati lose men, but they still win the battle. Polybians are way better than Camillians. Hastati last long enough when you put them in guard mode. They get better with experience chevrons which represents the unit getting used to fighting together. Historically, Roman citizens were grouped with different people every war, with some exceptions. They would suck their first time on campaign and get better by the end. But back on topic, Hastati are good because they are cheap line infantry.

    I repel cavalry charges by moving up my second line which causes the horses to flee due to being surrounded by so many troops. I never stand by and let my hastati sit and take damage.

  12. #222

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Hastati of course are worse than Principes. But that doesn't make them bad infantry! They still are at least decent sword infantry, so nothing on my hastati.
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  13. #223

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Hastati are better than many barbarian units out there, including even Gaeroas. They are decent medium infantry and extremely cost effective, even though the best cost effective solution, theoretically, is to recruit only Principes.

  14. #224
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Does the overhand cavalry units such as Hippeis or Eastern Medium Cavalry lower its spears/lances when charging? I have yet to succeed in that, bu then again, I rarely use those units for charging. I really fail to see how they can charge without the lowering of the lance. Mercenary generals make up the bulk of my cavalry, and most of the time they are the only cavalry besides the Eqvites Consvlares.

  15. #225
    Peerless Senior Member johnhughthom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    I think the problem with Hastati is due to limitations of the RTW engine, it's difficult to withdraw them and bring the Principes in without heavy casualties. If we could do that, let the Hastati tire a unit out then withdraw in an orderly fashion they would be much more useful. I still wouldn't class them as "bad" though.
    Last edited by johnhughthom; 12-04-2008 at 01:21.

  16. #226

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius Paulus View Post
    Does the overhand cavalry units such as Hippeis or Eastern Medium Cavalry lower its spears/lances when charging? I have yet to succeed in that, bu then again, I rarely use those units for charging. I really fail to see how they can charge without the lowering of the lance. Mercenary generals make up the bulk of my cavalry, and most of the time they are the only cavalry besides the Eqvites Consvlares.
    It's weird. When performing a successful charge, the overhand cavalry will actually thrust their spears slightly downward into their enemies a la the normal attack animation. It's barely noticeable, and successful charges are hard to distinguish from unsuccessful ones because even if a charge does hit home, it'll only do so with .15 lethality, so enemy casualties will be minimal.
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  17. #227
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Yeah, don't bash on the Hastati, they're good for their cost (only 1000 mnai or so). Bash on the RTW engine for its inability to change lethality on a single weapon.
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  18. #228

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.
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  19. #229
    Member Member penguinking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cullhwch View Post
    Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.
    Equites Campanici aren't bad, especially considering how bad the other Roman cavalry is. I agree with you about the other two, though- they're way more expensive but not better than Leuce Epos.

    I nominate Thureophoroi, as I find peltasts more effective is a supportive flanking role that they are, and they're not very good at holding a line. They're not awful but nor are they good. Lucanian infantry are also really bad. The Casse light cavalry is horrible, especially when compared to the excellent Gallic ones.
    Last edited by penguinking; 12-05-2008 at 03:32.
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  20. #230
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cullhwch View Post
    Oh, and as far as "Surprisingly bad units" goes, I'd nominate any sort of upper-level kopis/falcata skirmisher cavalry. Equites Campanici, Hippeis Tarantinoi, and Ambakaro Epones always fall embarrassingly short of the example set by the lowly Leuce Epos (IMHO the best javelin cavalry). Sure, armor and staying power are nice, but they're nowhere near as nice as a punishing charge.
    How true. Cavalry, even Cataphracts will die quickly if bogged down by spearmen. It is the charge that matters. Cavalry is basically useless without a spear/lance as a sword does not really have the impact of a spear. All the sword cavalry is good for is chasing down routers. Their charge does almost no damage and melee is usually not an option. That is why I always recruit the horse archers with the spears/lances as secondary weapons, as the sword-armed ones are useless for all but mop-up duties once the arrows are expended.

  21. #231

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    I think you are harsh on the equites campanici. Yes they don't have a lance or spear to charge with, but they aren't supposed to charge. They are skirmishers. What they are good for is killing other cavalry. If you have your normal equites bogged down in a battle with another cavalry unit, the campanici with their swords can kill the AI cavalry which will be using it's slower spear attack.
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  22. #232
    Satalextos Basileus Seron Member satalexton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    i find sword cavalry very nice in mobbing enemy FMs....




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  23. #233
    EB:NOM Triumvir Member gamegeek2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Sword cavalry are fine, just don't use them against melee infantry except to mob them and cause a rout. But they are a tad overpriced for what they do, and I prefer Leuce Epos.

    About that Thureophoroi comment - they are very solid heavy infantry, with much more staying power than Peltasts, and they can put most cavalry to flight.
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  24. #234

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by We shall fwee...Wodewick View Post
    I think you are harsh on the equites campanici. Yes they don't have a lance or spear to charge with, but they aren't supposed to charge. They are skirmishers. What they are good for is killing other cavalry. If you have your normal equites bogged down in a battle with another cavalry unit, the campanici with their swords can kill the AI cavalry which will be using it's slower spear attack.
    Or you could just charge a unit of Curepos at that engaged cavalry unit and rout it immediately without having to worry about a prolonged melee. There are very few situations in which Campanici et al are better than skirmisher/shock cavalry.

    Oh, and Thureophoroi are far from disappointing. They can be a great bread-and-butter unit, and almost perfectly priced for what they do.
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  25. #235
    Member Member Woreczko's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    1)Thureophoroi. Remember, that they are suppose to cover phalanx weak spots, not form the battle line. With spears they are a lot better at receiving cavalry charges than peltasts, while higher armour gives them more durabiility against missiles and lets them hold that flank a bit longer. Denser formation makes them better in guard mode, in which peltasts suck.

    2) Sword cavalry. If your opponent has the cavalry superiority, and is human, you won`t have the luxury of charging here and there, as you wish. He will tie your horsemen in melee and won`t let you go... unless your cavalry has enough melee skill to make such a tie-up undesirable for him.

  26. #236
    EBII Hod Carrier Member QuintusSertorius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Cullhwch View Post
    Or you could just charge a unit of Curepos at that engaged cavalry unit and rout it immediately without having to worry about a prolonged melee. There are very few situations in which Campanici et al are better than skirmisher/shock cavalry.

    Oh, and Thureophoroi are far from disappointing. They can be a great bread-and-butter unit, and almost perfectly priced for what they do.
    Exactly, cavalry without spears/lances are entirely useless.
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  27. #237
    Vicious Celt Warlord Member Celtic_Punk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    agreed.
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  28. #238
    Member Member penguinking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by Woreczko View Post
    1)Thureophoroi. Remember, that they are suppose to cover phalanx weak spots, not form the battle line. With spears they are a lot better at receiving cavalry charges than peltasts, while higher armour gives them more durabiility against missiles and lets them hold that flank a bit longer. Denser formation makes them better in guard mode, in which peltasts suck.
    They're not really bad. But if I want a unit to hold my flank with durability and that's good in guard mode, I'll go with classical hoplites, who are much more durable. If I want to have a versatile outflanking unit, I'll go with peltasts. The Thureophoroi are sort of stuck in between the two, unable to do either job that well.
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  29. #239

    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    I love hoplites. The missile ability of Thureophoroi is nice. But I've found that the lower defense and morale of the unit attracts the enemy to the flanks. I don't have that problem with hoplites or hypaspists.

  30. #240
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surprisingly bad units

    Quote Originally Posted by johnhughthom View Post
    I think the problem with Hastati is due to limitations of the RTW engine, it's difficult to withdraw them and bring the Principes in without heavy casualties. If we could do that, let the Hastati tire a unit out then withdraw in an orderly fashion they would be much more useful. I still wouldn't class them as "bad" though.
    I've never had too many issues with Hastati epically failing as some has stated. I dunno, it might just be the fact that I usually play infantry heavy armies. They have served me well in my previous campaigns where I restricted my self to 1/2 stack armies as the Romans.(GAH THE PO RIVER VALLEY where I was outnumbered 4 to 1) Silver chevron Hastati made up the core of my Iberian armies. I left them there defending towns for about 5 years before I managed to ship/walk a few more legions over there.

    I have actually come up with a standard set of heavy ifnantry tactics for EB and made a fairly good version of the manipular swap:

    1) The main thing to do with any sort of heavy infantry is that you put the first line of them in guard mode. The defense bonus and more importantly that insane stamina bonus(seems to be related to the fact that fewer of your men actually fight/move) make your men last so much longer. I usually spread this line fairly thin if I'm encountering lots of infantry(2-3 men thick) but thicker(4-6) if I'm fighting cavalry.

    2) Never order guys in guard mode to attack, keep them in guard mode and receive the enemy's charge. If you tell them to attack, they lose the stamina bonus because the whole unit will start pushing.

    The Swap: You spread your Hastati and Principles in two thin lines(2-3 guys) with the principles right behind the Hastati. You set your Hastati to defend to grind away at the enemy's stamina. You set your Principles to the normal attack mode. As the battle is joined, you will notice your Hastati slowly being pushed back. This is because guard mode units that are not told to attack do not push forward, they are pushed backwards instead. After a while, the Hastati line will be pushed into the Principles line. Hopefully the enemy is tired by now. This will cause the fresh Principles to engage and start pushing forward. After a little bit your Hastati and Principles will be overlapping.

    When you wish to pull your Hastati out, take them out of guard mode and tell them to run out of there. They'll do it and only take a few casualties because low stamina lowers lethality and they can't chase your guys because the Principles are pushing them backwards.

    The Roman infantry seem particularly well suited for this sort of thing especially those heavily armored Samnite spearmen that are really good at just sitting there and not dying while tiring out the enemy.
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