Fanatic’s First Cohort/Phalanx/Elephant/Chariot minimod

[Chaotix]

Thanks for the clarification. The mod is working fine now. I can also confirm that it is save-game compatible. You might want to put that in your first post, so nobody else asks the same question.

[TWFanatic]

Forgot to respond to that last bit. Yes it is savegame compatible (though I take it you already figured that out). I have editted the first post to clarify those two issues.

[Titus Flaminius]

cool looking units

[Demivrgvs]

I quite like what you did and I've some questions and nitpicking if you don't mind.

Phalangites:
- you said that shield bonuses are doubled when in phalanx formation, does this stacks with shield bonuses being doubled against missiles? Maybe I've misunderstood and it's the same thing all units share and not something related to phalanx. If the shield bonus is doubled by the very phalanx formation then I think having those relatively small shields with 5 is too high when most larger shields only have 4. I would make them 3 as if it correctly becomes 6 when in formation it would still be the most powerful shield protection in the game

Hoplites
- I would at least reduce your shield bonuses by 1, 5 seems alread enough. If you want them to better perform on the front and still be vulnerable to rear attacks incresing defence skill may be better imo

[TWFanatic]

In regards to the Macedonian phalanxes, the reduction of armor defense by two points and increase of shield defense by one point cancels each-other out when the unit is in phalanx and facing the enemy head-on. The one point increase in defense skill makes them slightly harder to break from the front in melee but this is more than compensated by the reduction in attack. They are more vulnerable to missiles and melee attacks in the rear due to the reduction in armor.

In regards to the Hoplite phalanxes, the -1 armor and +2 shield adjustments results in +1 defense vs. melee and missile from the front and -1 from the rear. Thus, the shield value is essentially only increased by one. Increasing it only to 5 would defeat one purpose of this mod which is to make phalanxes harder to break from the front. The -2 adjustment to attack also makes hoplites kill at a slower rate.

[Demivrgvs]

Thanks for the reply, though I already understood your reasons behind the changes. What I'd really like to know is:

- could someone confirm that shield bonuses are doubled in phalanx formation?

- is it true that shield bonuses count double vs. missile attacks?

- if both statements are true, does they stack?

[TWFanatic]

The reason units with the phalanx special ability are so hard to break from the front is because their shield value is doubled. Yes, that doubled shield value effects defense vs both missiles and melee attacks. Hence why missiles just bounce right off of Macedonian phalanxes.

Take a look at this thread.

- if both statements are true, does they stack?

Both statements are true but I'm not sure what you are asking here.

[Demivrgvs]

Sorry if I wasn't clear. If phalanx formation doubles the shield bonus and then shield bonus is doubled against missiles...does it mean those little shield with a base value of 5 grant instead defense 20 (or 15 if only the base value is doubled) vs. missile attacks?

5 (base shield bonus) +5 (phalanx formation) +10/+5 (x2 bonus vs. missiles)

[TWFanatic]

Tbh, I'm not sure if the effects are culminative when it comes to missile fire. I am inclined to believe they are because I rarely see phalanxes take missile-induced casualties from the front.

[Demivrgvs]

Ok, if you're ever interested on updating this mod I may have some suggestions after several hour of tests.

- Light_Spear: it really does what the "Complete EDU Guide" says (decreased defense vs. infantry instead of decreased attack), thus the +4 bonus to attack vanilla EB gives to spears to balance it is wrong imo.

- Hoplite formation: instead of assigning short_pike you may just edit the radius in the following line...

soldier unit_model, soldiers, extras, mass (,radius,height)

...by default it's 0.4 (even when not displayed at all as it is in EB's EDU), but if you set it to 0.22 it makes the soldier fight in "a tightly packed formation with overlapping shields".

- Phalanx's shield bonuses: you were right, phalanx bonus stack with the x2 bonus vs. missiles. Thus they little shields provide 15 or 20 defense (which is why even heavy javelins won't scratch them from the front).

Just my 2 cents.

[blado]

Just in case I decide I don't like this mod. I should backup the export_descr_unit.txt in C:\Rome - Total War\Data right? Or is there something else I should backup too.

[TWFanatic]

No. You should backup Rome: Total War/EB/mp game edu backup and sp game edu backup.

[Intranetusa]

I wonder if the First cohort mod can work in conjunction with the 'phalanx mod' ?


Actually, I don't even remember what the phalanx mod does. I downloaded it with other mods such as the First Cohort mod and the AI battle formations mod - I have no idea what the phalanx mod does...?

Can anyone help?

[TWFanatic]

See the first post for info/downloads. I have updated this mod for 1.1--it is now just a "phalanx/aquilifer" mod as the EB team have fixed the other areas with the 1.1 Patch.

[Intranetusa]

Silly me (I haven't been on the forums for a while)...thanks a lot. XP

[Darth Stalin]

Can we expect the "version 1.2",, compatible with the latest EB 1.2 patch?

[a completely inoffensive name]

This is the only minimod left I think that still isn't updated for 1.2.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Has any progress been made on this yet?

[Tellos Athenaios]

Have you seen TWFanatic since the release of 1.2 then?

[a completely inoffensive name]

From his page:

Last Activity: 11-23-08.

But! Here is a visitor message on his page in response to a visitor message Meth left:

"Hey, thanks for dropping by.

I'd love to drop by the tavern. How do I get access?

p.s. I should be updating my phalanx mod for 1.2 soon."

[Praetor Diego]

Fanatic, what do you mean about a problem using short_pike with units with two weapons? I know that will be a problem with massilian (their primary weapon is a sword) but with unit with spears as primary weapon where is the problem? They switch to sword and brake formation?
I tested with Sacred Band and seems to be working well. I will make more test to be sure.

[TWFanatic]

Sorry guys, I've been very busy lately. I downloaded 1.2 Friday and have been striving tirelessly to update this mod ever since.

I'll be doing things a little different this time. The main difference is that attack will not be touched on either Macedonian or Hoplite phalanxes--lethality will be reduced instead. I'll explain more in the release.

I almost forgot: the release is tommorrow.

@Diego:

Short pike with Sacred Band:



They fight with swords alone. If you put them in guard and don't charge them they switch to swords the moment the enemy makes contact. This is why I don't give short_pike to units with two weapons.

Cheers

[Praetor Diego]

Again, you are right. I was confused becose when they are on guard the rear lines keep the formation with spears while the front line fight with swords. But that is becose the rear lines wassnt fighting

[TWFanatic]

UPDATED FOR PATCH 1.2--see post #1 for download.

[Ibrahim]

I have a question: can the short_pike attribute work for keltohellenikoi hoplitai?

[TWFanatic]

They have a secondary weapon (javelins) so unfortunantly the answer is no.

[Ibrahim]

They have a secondary weapon (javelins) so unfortunantly the answer is no.

bummer.

well, thanks for the warning

[Aper]

Hi TW Fanatic,

why don't you use the soldier radius tweak instead of the buggy short_pike attribute? It should solve all your problems.
This is what I mean http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188651

Sorry if it's a dumb question (as probably it is)

[TWFanatic]

I have been using short_pike since EB v.81 (IIRC--the one before 1.0) and would not trade it for anything. It's benefits far outweigh its shortcomings IMHO. I tried tweaking soldier radius at first and it just was not the same--I didn't get the tightly packed "overlapping-shields" phalanx and the spearhead dragging beneath the ground problem still exists. In that sense, short_pike actually fixes several bugs.

I use short_pike for the reasons mentioned on the title post (on page one). If you prefer something else, good for you. Whatever floats your boat. Do remember also that this mod does more than just add short_pike (again see the title post). In general, it makes phalanxes of the Macedonian and Hoplite variety easier to flank, kill at a slower rate, and push with greater force.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This is awesome, I just could not play EB until this came out. Realistic phalanx formations for the win!