Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Hitler was doing the exact same thing you know. Whenever a German patrol was killed by resistance in Greece, the Nazis would go to the nearest village and execute 20 times the people who died.

Uh, that's little different. Executing twenty times the people who died (or carrying out any kind of reprisals in that nature) is wrong. Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

[Hax]

Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

Yes, it is, especially when there are civilians threatened.

[FactionHeir]

Enemy combatants do not wear uniform according to their fickle definition. Hamas police, security forces and politicians certainly do. And politicians as targets is just about the same as assassination and killing civilians.

[Hooahguy]

It will all end badly anyway, only the Gaza civilians will suffer.

Look what happened in Lebanon. The Israeli military which has been pay rolled and funded in billions by the US couldn't defeat Hezboulla on the ground who were armed with a couple of AK's.

a few AK's? how about that, RPGs, rockets, and more arms sent by iran? hm? not only that, israel did a huge mistake and listened to world opinion, which condemned it for the invasion into lebanon. and if olmert wasnt such a wimp and didnt restrict the IDF, then things would have turned out differently.

To be honest I might care a bit more for Israel if they actually tried to get along with there Muslim neighbours but the thing is they don't. The Arab league of country's called for an agreement where by Israel would keep the land planned out In the original partition plan for Israel. Israel of course refuse and instead of meeting it's neighbours with meetings just prefer to drop bombs on them.

have you looked at the original UN partition plan? it splits israel in two- half palestinian, half jewish. but the jewish part is pretty split up, and each of the 3 main jewish areas are thinly connected. bad position for us. and trans jordan was given to the palestinians as well, remember. so of course israel refused. we were originally in the original partition plan, but then the arab states attacked us hours after the country called israel was established. most of the wars israel was in with its neighbors were started by the arab states. the war for independence, the six day war (israel did a pre-emtive strike- dont tell me israel started it, because you know its false- egypt and syria were stockpiling arms and tanks, ready for an attack) and the yom kippur war. only in the past 2 decades or so israel had been the aggressor, like lebanon and such. btw we are peaceful right now, and probably for a while, with egypt and jordan, and to a certain extent, syria. at least thats what i gather.

Also people seem to think that they some how have superior claim to the land. What you have to remember the idea of Israel and Zionism was active long before the holocaust and Jewish settlers were arriving long before then to. How I see Israel is imagine if immigrants were coming to your country then all of a sudden decided that your land was now there's because they have religious claim to it. The whole situations is just getting ridiculous.

reminds me of the US, doesnt it? technically israel has more right to be in israel than the US does in north america. and what does the zionism movement have to do with anything? btw there have been jews there since the bible. never has there been no jews in the land. we have always been a minority, but still there, since the 2nd temple destruction. we believe that we have a right to the land, just like the indians have a right to N. America.

by your same logic, we should give back all the indians lands back which the settlers bought/took/conquered. right?
same concept.

[Hooahguy]

Its funny , thats what they said all the time with the PLO , then when the PLO wasn't in power they financed a coup and gave them guns .

only when they realized the PLO was less worse than hamas, if im understanding you correctly.

BTW
Errr.....thats collective punishment isn't it ? thats illegal isn't it ?
which is hilarious when you think good old uncle adolf really loved the old collective punishment but you errrrr........when the obvious is stated .

arent sending rockets at israeli civilians also "illegal?"
please, the illegal thing isnt really going to work here. just like the joker in The Dark Knight , hamas has no rules. trying to play by the rules while you enemy has none wont help you. it will only make things worse. now, im not saying that you should go out and massacre civilians, but dont be afraid to throw that grenade at the terrorist who is hiding behind that child.
technically anyone who aids a combatant becomes one him/herself, so i guess it is right to send that missile at the group of women who are shielding the terrorists.
what annoys me is that people arent as upset when a suicide bomber blows himself up in a crowded israeli pizzeria, but go all up in arms when an israeli rocket, targeting combatants, accidentally kills some civilians.
/rant

[Hax]

Not accidentally. If they really thought there would not be civilian casualties, they'd be either naïve or fools. I'd like to think the first, though.

technically anyone who aids a combatant becomes one him/herself, so i guess it is right to send that missile at the group of women who are shielding the terrorists.

Alright, that's good! Let's also just shoot anyone with a basement, they might have terrorists in there.

So, we've come to the "right" point. I think you have about the same right to live in a place, as I have to stab you multiple times in the face and then set your corpse alight? Are we on the same page here?

So you say that the Jews have the God-given right to live in Palestine. Okay, sure, no problem. However, it goes wrong when they force people out of Palestine. If you deny that Israel did force Palestinians from their homes, I will not get into further argument with you.

[Guildenstern]

Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

There is nothing "surgical" in the Israeli raids of these days. They are the closest thing there is to a full-scale war between Israel and Hamas. This is definitely the harshest Israeli assault on Gaza since the territory was captured during the Six-Day War in 1967.

[seireikhaan]

I believe this sums up my view on this conflict, from both sides.

In this world
Hate never yet dispelled hate.
Only love dispels hate.
This is the law,
Ancient and inexhaustible.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Until the people there say "Enough!" and beats up their politicians and generals for not delivering them peace these kind of news don't impress me.

I would say "Wow!" and would be surprised if I would hear that Israel have sent humanitarian help to the Palestinians instead of tanks.

[Idaho]

Until the people there say "Enough!" and beats up their politicians and generals for not delivering them peace these kind of news don't impress me.

I would say "Wow!" and would be surprised if I would here that Israel have sent humanitarian help to the Palestinians instead of tanks.

The Pals were offered a choice of corrupt and failed Fatah or an organised and active Hamas who had delivered extensively on grassroots projects. Israel and the US decided that this was the 'wrong' kind of democracy and shut down the fledgling Pal state.

[rasoforos]

Uh, that's little different. Executing twenty times the people who died (or carrying out any kind of reprisals in that nature) is wrong. Killing a large amount of enemy combatants in a series of surgical strikes is not wrong.

Yeah...as surgical as a 90 year old neighborhood butcher with parkinson's...after a few pints...

[Hooahguy]

The Pals were offered a choice of corrupt and failed Fatah or an organised and active Hamas who had delivered extensively on grassroots projects. Israel and the US decided that this was the 'wrong' kind of democracy and shut down the fledgling Pal state.

really? hamas was only for the advancement of the palestinian people? how about that, and the destruction of israel? dont leave out the fact that hamas wants israel destroyed.

[Hooahguy]

There is nothing "surgical" in the Israeli raids of these days. They are the closest thing there is to a full-scale war between Israel and Hamas. This is definitely the harshest Israeli assault on Gaza since the territory was captured during the Six-Day War in 1967.

wait. how would you know that they are surgical or not?
and how do you know this is the harshest raid on gaza? have you been a participant in every raid on gaza since the six-day war?

Yeah...as surgical as a 90 year old neighborhood butcher with parkinson's...after a few pints...

and how do you know that israeli raids havent been surgical?

[rasoforos]

really? hamas was only for the advancement of the palestinian people? how about that, and the destruction of israel? dont leave out the fact that hamas wants israel destroyed.

Its the middle bloody east...Everyone wants everyone else destroyed since 7000 bc

[Tribesman]

No to both - therefore any 'act of war' is in fact collective punishment and not only illegal but immoral.

Way to go Idaho

only when they realized the PLO was less worse than hamas, if im understanding you correctly.

errrr...before which Hamas was encouraged as a counter to the loony PLO
Bugger me sideways hooah you give it the big "I am jewish" but you are frigging clueless about Israel .
You are nearly as bad as that Kach supporting idiot son of a star who used to post .

arent sending rockets at israeli civilians also "illegal?"

Yes , who has said it isn't ?

please, the illegal thing isnt really going to work here.

errrrrr.....yes it does unless Israel pulls out of all the agreements and organisations that define the legality , oh sorry I was wrong , in one part they are safe because their blind friend has a veto .
Well spotted
Thats part of the discussion you ....( I ain't allowed to say Jim Henson creation anymore am I?)

hamas has no rules. trying to play by the rules while you enemy has none wont help you.

Actually it will .

it will only make things worse.

Absolute bollox .

technically anyone who aids a combatant becomes one him/herself

You really havn't the faintest idea what you are talking about .
Might I humbly suggest that you drop that typical Brooklyn "I am a Jew" rubbish and attempt to look at the position with open eyes ?

[Hooahguy]

Alright, that's good! Let's also just shoot anyone with a basement, they might have terrorists in there.

no, i meant that if you see a terrorist, and he is hiding behind a child, then i would throw a grenade at them, if carefully shooting the terrorist without hurting the child isnt an option.

So you say that the Jews have the God-given right to live in Palestine. Okay, sure, no problem. However, it goes wrong when they force people out of Palestine. If you deny that Israel did force Palestinians from their homes, I will not get into further argument with you.

ill concede that israel did evict SOME palestinians. not all. but then again so did other countries, like the US, and im sure i can think of others in die time.
also, would you have a problem if the arabs were successful in 1948 and they forced out the israeli settlers, who "invaded" what was then called Palestine?

[Hooahguy]

errrr...before which Hamas was encouraged as a counter to the loony PLO
Bugger me sideways hooah you give it the big "I am jewish" but you are frigging clueless about Israel .
You are nearly as bad as that Kach supporting idiot son of a star who used to post .

i think you mean "Bar Kochba."
sadly israel turns to the wrong people. they turn to the opponent of the one in power. and when did i proclaim recently that because i am jewish i do know more?
so before we get into name calling, which im sure is against the rules, im going to ignore this little comment.

Yes , who has said it isn't ?

considering you arent coming down no where near as harsh on them.....

Actually it will .

prove it.

Absolute bollox .

as before, prove it. where has it worked? certainly not in iraq.

You really havn't the faintest idea what you are talking about .
Might I humbly suggest that you drop that typical Brooklyn "I am a Jew" rubbish and attempt to look at the position with open eyes ?[/QUOTE]
might i humbly suggest you stop posting with contempt?


ok, so just to make things easier for everyone, what exactly is you position on israel, or as you like to ignorantly call it, "Palestine?"

[Hooahguy]

ignore

[Strike For The South]

I support Israel merely because they are able to further US interests. If another country in the region was able to do that better then, I say we give the money to them. I don't care for the Israelis nor the Palestinians. Let them kill each other off.

[rory_20_uk]

I support Israel merely because they are able to further US interests. If another country in the region was able to do that better then, I say we give the money to them. I don't care for the Israelis nor the Palestinians. Let them kill each other off.

There's a statement of Realpolitik I can understand.

More on topic missiles rarely cleanly kill terrorists - especially in a "target rich environment". IMO security guards in a place with rampant unemployment are not legitimate targets.

[tibilicus]

a few AK's? how about that, RPGs, rockets, and more arms sent by iran? hm? not only that, israel did a huge mistake and listened to world opinion, which condemned it for the invasion into lebanon. and if olmert wasnt such a wimp and didnt restrict the IDF, then things would have turned out differently.

I know I was exaggerating. What I was trying to get at still is isn't it surprising that a group of militants armed by a fledgling country (Iran) could defeat a country who's military is supplied by the worlds super power?

have you looked at the original UN partition plan? it splits israel in two- half palestinian, half jewish. but the jewish part is pretty split up, and each of the 3 main jewish areas are thinly connected. bad position for us. and trans jordan was given to the palestinians as well, remember. so of course israel refused. we were originally in the original partition plan, but then the arab states attacked us hours after the country called israel was established. most of the wars israel was in with its neighbors were started by the arab states. the war for independence, the six day war (israel did a pre-emtive strike- dont tell me israel started it, because you know its false- egypt and syria were stockpiling arms and tanks, ready for an attack) and the yom kippur war. only in the past 2 decades or so israel had been the aggressor, like lebanon and such. btw we are peaceful right now, and probably for a while, with egypt and jordan, and to a certain extent, syria. at least thats what i gather.

Even if it did that doesn't matter. Oh and yes I have seen it. As I said earlier I wouldn't have a problem with the Israeli people defending themselves if attacked within the original partition plans but the fact is there not within the partition plans. The decision to previously allow Israeli settlements on the west bank and Gaza just show Israel's greed and it's desire to accumulate the whole territory.

reminds me of the US, doesnt it? technically israel has more right to be in israel than the US does in north america. and what does the zionism movement have to do with anything? btw there have been jews there since the bible. never has there been no jews in the land. we have always been a minority, but still there, since the 2nd temple destruction. we believe that we have a right to the land, just like the indians have a right to N. America.

by your same logic, we should give back all the indians lands back which the settlers bought/took/conquered. right?
same concept.

Ah the bible, with no offence to your religion there is no solid evidence to justify anything in that book so laying claim to a country and land rights purely on a book is ludicrous. Obviously I know there were Jews there before the Arabs but that's like saying the Celtic people were in England before the Anglo Saxons and Normans arrived. Kind of like inviting every Scottish and welsh person to take all of the English peoples land because they had historical claim to it.

And if I could go back in time and had the power of God to give more land to the native Americans yes I would, maybe actually let them have the great plains or something. The fact is though we can't and surely we should learn from history's mistakes? Also native Americans were in fairly small numbers whilst the Europeans were arriving in large numbers. It's the other way round as people are arriving in Israel in small numbers to take the majority's land.

[Hooahguy]

I know I was exaggerating. What I was trying to get at still is isn't it surprising that a group of militants armed by a fledgling country (Iran) could defeat a country who's military is supplied by the worlds super power?

you can ask the same thing about the US in vietnam, and many other conflicts.

Even if it did that doesn't matter. Oh and yes I have seen it. As I said earlier I wouldn't have a problem with the Israeli people defending themselves if attacked within the original partition plans but the fact is there not within the partition plans. The decision to previously allow Israeli settlements on the west bank and Gaza just show Israel's greed and it's desire to accumulate the whole territory.

they were attacked within the partition plan borders, and as the arab forces retreated, the israelis followed, getting more land, because as the arab armies retreated, the Palestinians, hearing about how the jews were gonig to kill them and such, ran with them. with all the empty land, we took it. to the victors goes the spoils. it was wrong, but we did it, and theres no going back. we certainly cant go back now.

Also native Americans were in fairly small numbers whilst the Europeans were arriving in large numbers. It's the other way round as people are arriving in Israel in small numbers to take the majority's land.

really? tell that to the 15,000 native americans who were forced onto the Trail of Tears. there were a lot of indians. they were certainly the majority when the first settlers got there. it was the exact same situation. small amount of settlers would enter the land, then eventually increase. the reason why the israelis increased so rapidly was because after the holocaust, there was no where to go but israel. the US, and most allied countries had strict immigration laws, and most Holocaust survivors were pinned up in DP camps for a long time.

[Tribesman]

ok, so just to make things easier for everyone, what exactly is you position on israel, or as you like to ignorantly call it, "Palestine?"

Ah you are young grasshopper but you will learn .
I suppose I could ask you to trawl through all the middle-east topics in this backroom to see what exactly my position is .
However I might be tempted to give you an answer if you can set some parameters for the answer
Start with what is Israel ? where is it ? what does it include or not include ?
What is palestine ? where is it ? what does it include or not include ?
What are the legal precedents for the establishment of either entity through all their myriad of manifestations?
What is the sensible process to resolution?
What are the stumbling points in that process?
What is the legal standing of those objections that are the stumbling points ?
How is bombing or rocket attacks going to alter those stumbling points ?


Now you can start with one point or you can start with many , however if you start with none but somehow want an answer then you go back to the stage of being ignorant and posting rubbish .

[Samurai Waki]

Anyone who says Israel is just a US money sink is terribly wrong, it's also in the invested interests of China and India to have Israel hand over US Technology. Which in return they also get a fat pay check, Israel is really two faced about every business deal they do, and it's undermining their long term support from other large nations, hence Europe's refusal to do much business outside their civilian sectors.

[Hooahguy]

Wakizashi, didnt you change your name from?.... something else?....
or am i just hallucinating?

[tibilicus]

they were attacked within the partition plan borders, and as the Arab forces retreated, the Israelis followed, getting more land, because as the Arab armies retreated, the Palestinians, hearing about how the Jews were going to kill them and such, ran with them. with all the empty land, we took it. to the victors goes the spoils. it was wrong, but we did it, and there's no going back. we certainly cant go back now.

So the cowards pushed civilians out of their homes and then decided to keep them. How very ironic from a group of people who had their own homes confiscated by the Nazis, they kicked up quite a fuss about that. And yes there is going back, well maybe not in Israelis eyes due to there hunger for land and expansion. I bet if they were gifted the whole of the middle east by killing of every one there Israel would take it.

At this point as the attacks continue I have zero sympathy for Israel for all I care let hamas and it's numbers grow as an effect of Israel's ill judgement. Israel doesn't deserve the west's support and in time they have proven even to betray much of the west interests, hence why Europe's now sick of them.

[Samurai Waki]

No.. I've always been the same Bi-Polar Wakizashi.

[Hooahguy]

what is Israel?
the country founded in 1948, but dates way before that, and according to jews, to the time of moses.

where is it ?
biblical borders-below lebanon, to the left of jordan, and northeast of the sinai, but doesnt extend all the way doen to eilat. but thats jsut according to the bible.

what does it include or not include ?
includes everything left of the jordan river and below lebanon, ending at what is now eliat. doesnt include the sinai, and does include the golan as well as the negev.

What is palestine?
what the romans called israel and what everyone else called it up until 1948, and what some people who refuse to acknowledge israel as a country still call it. but can be stretched to be used

where is it ?
see #2

what does it include or not include ?
see #3

What are the legal precedents for the establishment of either entity through all their myriad of manifestations?
restate of question, please.


What is the sensible process to resolution?
if the resolution what you are talking about is peace between arab and jew, then i think that if the arabs would lay down all arms against israel, accept israel as a country, we would do the same, and maybe even thrive together as allies.

What are the stumbling points in that process?
not all arabs dont want peace, not all jews want peace, a war-minded palestinian government, aka hamas who likes to throw rockets into israeli cities, israeli planes bomb hamas strong points, which just happen to be in civilian areas.

What is the legal standing of those objections that are the stumbling points ?
both arabs and jews say that its our homeland, arab say that we were there before the jews and how the jews kicked them out, jews say that we conquered it, the UN gave it to us as a home after the Holocaust, and we bought a lot of the land from the arabs.

How is bombing or rocket attacks going to alter those stumbling points ?
they dont- just make it worse. if both sides could stop, then we could get past the stumbling blocks.

i hope i understood your questions correctly-just my opinions.

[Hooahguy]

No.. I've always been the same Bi-Polar Wakizashi.

funny. there was someone else who had nearly the same sig and the same avatar as you do...
w/e

[Hooahguy]

So the cowards pushed civilians out of their homes and then decided to keep them. How very ironic from a group of people who had their own homes confiscated by the Nazis, they kicked up quite a fuss about that. And yes there is going back, well maybe not in Israelis eyes due to there hunger for land and expansion. I bet if they were gifted the whole of the middle east by killing of every one there Israel would take it.

At this point as the attacks continue I have zero sympathy for Israel for all I care let hamas and it's numbers grow as an effect of Israel's ill judgement. Israel doesn't deserve the west's support and in time they have proven even to betray much of the west interests, hence why Europe's now sick of them.

you make it seem as if all israelis are greedy and land-hungry people. been reading the "protocols of the elders of zion" much?