Some joyous tidings from Israel

[tibilicus]

you make it seem as if all israelis are greedy and land-hungry people. been reading the "protocols of the elders of zion" much?

Oh yes because if I don't support Israel I'm an anti-semetic Nazi!

Always a good one used by the Jewish/Israeli people to defend there actions. Get over it, the world doesn't hate Jews, they hate Israel and that's no fault other than Israel's itself. Ever since it was founded it has done its self zero favours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7802515.stm

Just a little update those oh so good Israelis are now bombing the University which isn't just a symbol for the youth but it also has religious symbolism in Gaza as well. This is going to bring religion into it even more now and you know what? I honestly hope hamas give you every bullet you've got coming to you Israel, this is one westerner that wont stick up and defend murderous tyrants.

You can't crush the will of the people, they will just come back stronger and stronger each time. Tonight as Gaza burns, all the people of Gaza are untied in their hatred for these attacks. Congratulations Israel you've just encouraged a whole new breed of militants who want to wipe you of the face of the earth. And can you blame them?

[KarlXII]

no, i meant that if you see a terrorist, and he is hiding behind a child, then i would throw a grenade at them, if carefully shooting the terrorist without hurting the child isnt an option.

What?

[KarlXII]

you make it seem as if all israelis are greedy and land-hungry people. been reading the "protocols of the elders of zion" much?

When in doubt, accuse anti-semetism! It never fails!

Personally, I think the reaction is stupid, stepping on someone's toe is not deserving of a punch to the face.

(I think we need a new Godwin's Law for this.)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No it is not blaming Israel for not being defenceless , its blaming Israel for trying the same old crap again when they know it doesn't work .
And not only do they know it doesn't work , they know it is counterproductive ...that is really an accurate definition of being a stupid idiot isn't it

This is a telling statement.

Israel's current actions do little save to preserve and enhance the militant components of Hamas (and other hardliners) without resolving the issue. Repeating an unsuccessful solution is not likely to work -- Tribes makes a good point here.

It has been my belief for some time that the "warlords" among Hamas and the Palestinians (and possibly among the Israeli right as well) enjoy wielding the power of the warlord. They have a vested interest in maintaining the conflict, not winning it outright. So, if Israel is establishing a period of quiessence, then rockets will be sent off to encourage precisely the response they've gotten.


Israel's choices to actually RESOLVE the conflict must be substantially different than those employed to date, since those employed to date haven't resolved the issue. Consider:

1. Bring about a constitutional convention to create a new state -- Palestine -- in which all participate equally. This will result in Jews being a significant minority but return political control to arab-descent Palestinians.

2. Israel ceases all counter-attacks of any kind, utilizing only passive defense techniques such as metal detectors and the like. It then accepts the ongoing civilian and military casualties among Israelis until world opinion turns and the Palestinians themselves are sickened by their own actions.

3. Israel mobilizes all armed forces, turning on Gaza, Jerusalem, and the West Bank in turn and eradicates (by ejection or extermination) all Palestinian presence. It would then likely have to close its borders almost entirely for several years as it would be a pariah state.

4. Israel petitions to be annexed by some other nation, perhaps the USA, and petitions to become a state or two after status as a territory.


So what do you think?


Please note, my key point is -- as Tribes pithily observed -- the current regimen of answers is NOT doing it; something new must be tried. I myself lack the wisdom to know what the best course for Israel should be -- and I can hardly be viewed as having a direct stake in the matter.

[Marshal Murat]

I think Israel's actions make alot of sense.
1.The ruling party is seeking to continue it's hold on the government, so they drum up support by bombing the heck outta Gaza Strip Hamas sites.
2.They actually want to take out those sites that fire rockets and also send out a warning to Hamas about firing rockets.
3.With the approaching U.S. government ambiguous and more "change-oriented", the Israelis think they have one more real chance of pulling this off while the U.S. is willing to look away.

So, while everyone condemns Israel (again), they carry on airstrikes and might launch ground offensives, while they still can.

Besides, Israel is doing what conquerors have done before. Cromwell in Ireland, Harrison in the Midwest; destroying the support structure that the population relied on, forcing them into submission.

[Papewaio]

Two words:

Snap Election.

[Yoyoma1910]

Irguin

[Furunculus]

" Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
no, i meant that if you see a terrorist, and he is hiding behind a child, then i would throw a grenade at them, if carefully shooting the terrorist without hurting the child isnt an option."

What?

what do you not understand?

[Tribesman]

Besides, Israel is doing what conquerors have done before. Cromwell

So you are comparing Israels actions to a crazed dictator who thought he was on a mission from god .
Thats errrrr.....thats anti-semetism that is

[KarlXII]

" Originally Posted by hooahguy View Post
no, i meant that if you see a terrorist, and he is hiding behind a child, then i would throw a grenade at them, if carefully shooting the terrorist without hurting the child isnt an option."



what do you not understand?

The mentality behind,

you see a terrorist, and he is hiding behind a child, then i would throw a grenade at them, if carefully shooting the terrorist without hurting the child isnt an option.

[Dutch_guy]

What is the sensible process to resolution?
if the resolution what you are talking about is peace between arab and jew, then i think that if the arabs would lay down all arms against israel, accept israel as a country, we would do the same, and maybe even thrive together as allies.

One could argue that Israel, being something like a Western country, should make the first move there. Not bombing the hell out of one of the most densly populated area's in the world in response to a mortar attack might be a good start. Current technology doesn't allow for surgical strikes in such a densly populated area, and those mortar attacks are crude, ineffective and kill more Hamas than Israeli civilians. Honestly, I don't see what Olmert was trying to achieve other than pure vengeance and extending his time in office. As anyone can judge just by looking back in history that this won't stop the mortar/missle attacks, and won't make the people less inclined not to vote Hamas next elections. And the latter should be what Israel should try to achieve, as it's a democratic country itself.

[rasoforos]

wait. how would you know that they are surgical or not?
and how do you know this is the harshest raid on gaza? have you been a participant in every raid on gaza since the six-day war?


and how do you know that israeli raids havent been surgical?

I know so mainly because I live in the real world...


Lets see some latest targets too:

'An Israeli strike early Monday hit the Jabalya refugee camp, leaving five children dead in a home that was damaged when a nearby mosque was hit, said Dr. Mu'awiya Hassanein. The Israeli military had no immediate comment.'

Oh...and bombing the University was a good one too.

Bravo Israel, great election campaign.

[Fragony]

One could argue that Israel, being something like a Western country, should make the first move there. Not bombing the hell out of one of the most densly populated area's in the world in response to a mortar attack might be a good start.

Not just one mortar attack there have been hundreds of attacks what do these idiots expect? If they can't control their primitive bloodlust c'est ca. There seemingly is no end to the patience of Israel Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

[Marshal Murat]

So you are comparing Israels actions to a crazed dictator who thought he was on a mission from god .
Thats errrrr.....thats anti-semetism that is

I was just comparing Israeli tactics to those enacted by Cromwell in Ireland. As I understand it, he burned all the crops, destroyed all the villages, forcing the Irish to come under his control.
Thanks for the laughs though.

[tibilicus]

Not just one mortar attack there have been hundreds of attacks what do these idiots expect? If they can't control their primitive bloodlust c'est ca. There seemingly is no end to the patience of Israel Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

You say that but then what do you expect? Let Israel choose Gazas government and have the will and the freedom of the people crushed by Israeli tyrants?

"Freedom needs a soldier" and in this case hamas happen to be those soldiers.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

Fragony, your capacity for highlighting the very point and then missing it spectacularly is only rivalled by your astoundingly brilliant irony. (You do know what shalom means?)

I know the battle lines here in the Backroom are well and truly drawn on this issue, but in the spirit of optimism that Seamus advanced so well, I submit a piece by Robert Fisk - who illustrates that justice is founded on the principle of proportionality. Tribesman is quite right to argue that a change of strategy is in the best interests of Israel.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles.

Seamus, to attempt a reply to your post would find me somewhat restricted. I have noted many times that since Israel is politically incapable of getting itself out of this rut (by its coalition style governments dependent on the lunatic fringe alone) only the United States has the power to force the ritual slaughter to end. The only way that will happen is if the Palestinians force their leadership to adopt non-violence as the only way to fight back. Sadly, like peoples across the world when attacked, relying on men of violence to retaliate is all too easy.

Option 2 of your list is the only one I can see working - Israel must continue as a democratic state - but the demonisation of the Palestinians is a very useful political tool, and so will not be given up. Just as terrified Palestinians vote for Hamas to "defend" them, terrified Israelis tend to vote for whichever party looks the most hawkish. Nonetheless, as a relatively mature democracy, and the over-whelming military power, it is much more likely the Israelis will conclude that peace will require some forbearance. That day however, appears a very, very long way off. Nonetheless, I daresay that if the US tired of the charade and threatened to withdraw aid and patience, they might come to this conclusion as a matter of urgency.

[Furunculus]

Oh...and bombing the University was a good one too.

that university was a bit different to the one about a mile away from me, if only because i'm sure that mine doesn't have a bomb factory inside it.

and as far as i know they didn't drop a fuel-air explosive on top of the entire complex including student halls, they launched precision strikes on the bomb factory itself.

[Fragony]

Fragony, your capacity for highlighting the very point and then missing it spectacularly is only rivalled by your astoundingly brilliant irony. (You do know what shalom means?)

But of course, I may be an idiot but I am not uneducatd. This is a good thing, about time that hamas-trash is getting what it deserves, and that would be to be very much dead and most of all not alive.

Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't love. With Hamas gone we can start fixing things.

[tibilicus]

Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't love. With Hamas gone we can start fixing things.

Hamas wont die and they will never die. All that will happen is more will take up arms against Israel. And to be honest that isn't a bad thing, Israel are long over due an complete and utter ass whooping for there land hungry and imperialistic views in the middle east. Israelis seem to think they hold claim to the middle east and see themselves as superior to it's other "less civilized" neighbours.

As the loyalists would say in northern Ireland "no surrender".

[Fragony]

Hamas wont die and they will never die. All that will happen is more will take up arms against Israel.

Which they will do anyway, can't make peace with Hamas it isn't possible, but it is certainly possible to keep killing them, it's the only way. It's ugly, but it is just the way it is so if that would be ugly then let it be ugly. And I am not saying that Israel should kill them all but Israel has earned the right to take of it's silk gloves and not care that much.

[Furunculus]

Hamas wont die and they will never die. All that will happen is more will take up arms against Israel.

And to be honest that isn't a bad thing, Israel are long over due an complete and utter ass whooping....

.....for there land hungry and imperialistic views in the middle east. Israelis seem to think they hold claim to the middle east and see themselves as superior to it's other "less civilized" neighbours.

No, but israel may wish to bargain from a position of power, much as Britian did with the IRA, (BG may disagree with me here).

But no country in the ME has the military competence to give israel a kicking.

Or possibly they just want strategic depth. SOME israelies see a divine right to the territory of biblical israel, only some.

[rory_20_uk]

Cobblers.

It's difficult to preach hatred against a country that isn't doing anything to you; getting people in Belgium to suicide attack France wouldn't be possible. Attacking a foe that is starving your family to death when it's not killing them isn't

If we were talking about commando raids killing key players then it is Israel vs Hamas. Missiles and blockage it is Israel vs the palestinians most of whom would rather be anywhere else in the world besides there.

The rockets are pretty pathetic as a weapon. If Palestinians had a quality of life and had even a passable relationship with Israel support would quickly wither. Indiscriminate killing - no I don't view as a missile blowing up the right house as descriminating - will not noticably harm such a low-tech foe.

[Fragony]

The rockets are pretty pathetic as a weapon.

But they keep flying regardless, they may be too blinded by hate to actually hit something but that doesn't make them any less hostile, if they had better equipment they would be using it. They are scum and Israel deals with it properly, making holes in them or making sure they are spread out among holes, I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Vladimir]

Wow. Four pages huh?

Meanwhile fellow muslims rush to embrace their Palestinian brothers.

[LeftEyeNine]

Ha !

Bomb the hell out of people -death toll 300, wounded surpasses 2000- and expect to "teach them a lesson".

Which planet is that of which atmosphere you're inhaling ?

Turkish air forces bombed PKK camps a couple of months ago and it was all "HEY STOP ! STOP THERE, HEY HEY HEY STOP THERE UR HURTING CİV1L1ANS !111HUMANITARIANFECES".

Once more again: The whole world is about being powerful, not righteous. Jeez, you'll even have democracy-cradle Euros supporting your wicked cause.

For ****'s sake, they are using cell phones' lights to make surgeries over there right now while you have your console's gamepad in your hand.

I'm truly disgusted of you and your sense telling that "I am human, you are not".

[tibilicus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7803711.stm

Israel was fighting a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas, its defence chief said.

All this is just another political tool to try and keep the ruling Israeli party in power. if they fail then there will be an even more right wing party in power. Judging by the scenes here in England at the Israeli embassy the whole world right now pretty much hates their guts.

To be honest Israel has pretty much made one bad move after one bad move since the state was born. You look on t.v and see Israel and it's nice modern housing whilst 5 miles over the border you see Palestinians who have no homes being killed for no crime other than being in "Israel's land". The other attacks by Israel before were hardly justified but this is the last straw.

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

[Hooahguy]

Oh yes because if I don't support Israel I'm an anti-semetic Nazi!

Always a good one used by the Jewish/Israeli people to defend there actions. Get over it, the world doesn't hate Jews, they hate Israel and that's no fault other than Israel's itself. Ever since it was founded it has done its self zero favours.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7802515.stm

Just a little update those oh so good Israelis are now bombing the University which isn't just a symbol for the youth but it also has religious symbolism in Gaza as well. This is going to bring religion into it even more now and you know what? I honestly hope hamas give you every bullet you've got coming to you Israel, this is one westerner that wont stick up and defend murderous tyrants.

You can't crush the will of the people, they will just come back stronger and stronger each time. Tonight as Gaza burns, all the people of Gaza are untied in their hatred for these attacks. Congratulations Israel you've just encouraged a whole new breed of militants who want to wipe you of the face of the earth. And can you blame them?

sorry if i wasnt clear- i was being sarcastic....

[Hooahguy]

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

i dont see how it was a complete failure. maybe in foreign relations its a failure, but technologically its pretty high up there, and weve done a lot with the land. it used to be barren wastelands for the most of it. have you seen pics of what is now Tel-Aviv back in the 1880s? its pretty astonishing how much its grown.

for a country to fail it literally has to fail completely, as in the entire country is in shambles. i dont see that.

[Banquo's Ghost]

But of course, I may be an idiot but I am not uneducatd. This is a good thing, about time that hamas-trash is getting what it deserves, and that would be to be very much dead and most of all not alive.

Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't love. With Hamas gone we can start fixing things.

I didn't mean to imply you are uneducated, but the irony of your statement was too much to pass up. Nonetheless, I would agree with you about Hamas, but this is not the way to get rid of them. Indeed, it simply creates more radicals, whatever they choose to call themselves. No, they need to be marginalised - which means someone else ought to be doing the healthcare, water supplies, food and education etc.

No, but israel may wish to bargain from a position of power, much as Britian did with the IRA, (BG may disagree with me here).

I have no intention of disagreeing with you - we differed a little on the scale of the IRA's infiltration, but not the fact of it. In fact you illustrate the point for this thread perfectly: from a position of power, the British government realised it could not defeat the IRA utterly (so that it posed no future threat of any sort) or any of its splinter groups. The final defeat of violent republicanism had to come by engaging them in peaceful negotiation - to sit down with the men of terror and bring them into the mainstream. Just as the British had done with those terrorists in Palestine that wished to create the state of Israel.

I submit that Israel is already in a position of great power from which to start substantive negotiations. The first realisation that needs to dawn is that they will never completely defeat the terrorists through military means.

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

On the contrary, Israel is a vibrant and civilised society, and rather too democratic for its own good. Compared to its neighbours - who rather ill-advisedly have tried on numerous occasions to destroy it - it is a model of liberal practice and thought.

You make the mistake of tarring all Israelis with the same brush. There are many who deplore the treatment of Palestinians and work very hard to better the situation. There are those who go so far as to refuse military service to make their point. The challenge for Israel is that like may democracies, conservatives and liberals are pretty much present in equivalent numbers. That means that the Knesset is often divided - and thus the influential hard-line religious parties (influence derived from very few seats, but the difference between winning and losing a vote of confidence) hold inordinate power.

Remember that the last Prime Minister to have made real progress to peace was assassinated by one of these fringe loonies. That's a hard legacy for any politician to ignore.

[Hooahguy]

You make the mistake of tarring all Israelis with the same brush. There are many who deplore the treatment of Palestinians and work very hard to better the situation. There are those who go so far as to refuse military service to make their point. The challenge for Israel is that like may democracies, conservatives and liberals are pretty much present in equivalent numbers. That means that the Knesset is often divided - and thus the influential hard-line religious parties (influence derived from very few seats, but the difference between winning and losing a vote of confidence) hold inordinate power.

agreed. remember when israel pulled all the settlers out of gaza? there were entire army units that refused to take part in forcing the settlers out.