Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Banquo's Ghost]

Hamas never stops attacking them no matter what Israel does, 100% behind our nosy muca's screw the hatebeards over good this time, shalome

Fragony, your capacity for highlighting the very point and then missing it spectacularly is only rivalled by your astoundingly brilliant irony. (You do know what shalom means?)

I know the battle lines here in the Backroom are well and truly drawn on this issue, but in the spirit of optimism that Seamus advanced so well, I submit a piece by Robert Fisk - who illustrates that justice is founded on the principle of proportionality. Tribesman is quite right to argue that a change of strategy is in the best interests of Israel.

Yes, Israel deserves security. But these bloodbaths will not bring it. Not since 1948 have air raids protected Israel. Israel has bombed Lebanon thousands of times since 1975 and not one has eliminated "terrorism". So what was the reaction last night? The Israelis threaten ground attacks. Hamas waits for another battle. Our Western politicians crouch in their funk holes. And somewhere to the east – in a cave? a basement? on a mountainside? – a well-known man in a turban smiles.

Seamus, to attempt a reply to your post would find me somewhat restricted. I have noted many times that since Israel is politically incapable of getting itself out of this rut (by its coalition style governments dependent on the lunatic fringe alone) only the United States has the power to force the ritual slaughter to end. The only way that will happen is if the Palestinians force their leadership to adopt non-violence as the only way to fight back. Sadly, like peoples across the world when attacked, relying on men of violence to retaliate is all too easy.

Option 2 of your list is the only one I can see working - Israel must continue as a democratic state - but the demonisation of the Palestinians is a very useful political tool, and so will not be given up. Just as terrified Palestinians vote for Hamas to "defend" them, terrified Israelis tend to vote for whichever party looks the most hawkish. Nonetheless, as a relatively mature democracy, and the over-whelming military power, it is much more likely the Israelis will conclude that peace will require some forbearance. That day however, appears a very, very long way off. Nonetheless, I daresay that if the US tired of the charade and threatened to withdraw aid and patience, they might come to this conclusion as a matter of urgency.

[Fragony]

Fragony, your capacity for highlighting the very point and then missing it spectacularly is only rivalled by your astoundingly brilliant irony. (You do know what shalom means?)

But of course, I may be an idiot but I am not uneducatd. This is a good thing, about time that hamas-trash is getting what it deserves, and that would be to be very much dead and most of all not alive.

Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't love. With Hamas gone we can start fixing things.

[tibilicus]

Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't love. With Hamas gone we can start fixing things.

Hamas wont die and they will never die. All that will happen is more will take up arms against Israel. And to be honest that isn't a bad thing, Israel are long over due an complete and utter ass whooping for there land hungry and imperialistic views in the middle east. Israelis seem to think they hold claim to the middle east and see themselves as superior to it's other "less civilized" neighbours.

As the loyalists would say in northern Ireland "no surrender".

[Fragony]

Hamas wont die and they will never die. All that will happen is more will take up arms against Israel.

Which they will do anyway, can't make peace with Hamas it isn't possible, but it is certainly possible to keep killing them, it's the only way. It's ugly, but it is just the way it is so if that would be ugly then let it be ugly. And I am not saying that Israel should kill them all but Israel has earned the right to take of it's silk gloves and not care that much.

[rory_20_uk]

Cobblers.

It's difficult to preach hatred against a country that isn't doing anything to you; getting people in Belgium to suicide attack France wouldn't be possible. Attacking a foe that is starving your family to death when it's not killing them isn't

If we were talking about commando raids killing key players then it is Israel vs Hamas. Missiles and blockage it is Israel vs the palestinians most of whom would rather be anywhere else in the world besides there.

The rockets are pretty pathetic as a weapon. If Palestinians had a quality of life and had even a passable relationship with Israel support would quickly wither. Indiscriminate killing - no I don't view as a missile blowing up the right house as descriminating - will not noticably harm such a low-tech foe.

[Fragony]

The rockets are pretty pathetic as a weapon.

But they keep flying regardless, they may be too blinded by hate to actually hit something but that doesn't make them any less hostile, if they had better equipment they would be using it. They are scum and Israel deals with it properly, making holes in them or making sure they are spread out among holes, I don't see anything wrong with that.

[LeftEyeNine]

Ha !

Bomb the hell out of people -death toll 300, wounded surpasses 2000- and expect to "teach them a lesson".

Which planet is that of which atmosphere you're inhaling ?

Turkish air forces bombed PKK camps a couple of months ago and it was all "HEY STOP ! STOP THERE, HEY HEY HEY STOP THERE UR HURTING CİV1L1ANS !111HUMANITARIANFECES".

Once more again: The whole world is about being powerful, not righteous. Jeez, you'll even have democracy-cradle Euros supporting your wicked cause.

For ****'s sake, they are using cell phones' lights to make surgeries over there right now while you have your console's gamepad in your hand.

I'm truly disgusted of you and your sense telling that "I am human, you are not".

[tibilicus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/7803711.stm

Israel was fighting a "war to the bitter end" against Hamas, its defence chief said.

All this is just another political tool to try and keep the ruling Israeli party in power. if they fail then there will be an even more right wing party in power. Judging by the scenes here in England at the Israeli embassy the whole world right now pretty much hates their guts.

To be honest Israel has pretty much made one bad move after one bad move since the state was born. You look on t.v and see Israel and it's nice modern housing whilst 5 miles over the border you see Palestinians who have no homes being killed for no crime other than being in "Israel's land". The other attacks by Israel before were hardly justified but this is the last straw.

The plan for an Israeli state failed from day one and here it is over 60 years later still failing today.

[Husar]

I'm truly disgusted of you and your sense telling that "I am human, you are not".

But we are.

Once more again: The whole world is about being powerful, not righteous. Jeez, you'll even have democracy-cradle Euros supporting your wicked cause.

Yes, but some people actually make an effort to improve things and some even call them heros *cough* Atatürk *cough*, yet you come here and say we should appreciate the status quo more and not try to change things for the better.

For ****'s sake, they are using cell phones' lights to make surgeries over there right now while you have your console's gamepad in your hand.

I bet many of them wish they could switch to having a console controller in their hand instead of being in that "operating room", from what I quoted before you sound like you think it's fine when they can't?

[Furunculus]

Hamas wont die and they will never die. All that will happen is more will take up arms against Israel.

And to be honest that isn't a bad thing, Israel are long over due an complete and utter ass whooping....

.....for there land hungry and imperialistic views in the middle east. Israelis seem to think they hold claim to the middle east and see themselves as superior to it's other "less civilized" neighbours.

No, but israel may wish to bargain from a position of power, much as Britian did with the IRA, (BG may disagree with me here).

But no country in the ME has the military competence to give israel a kicking.

Or possibly they just want strategic depth. SOME israelies see a divine right to the territory of biblical israel, only some.