Some joyous tidings from Israel

[rory_20_uk]

I will hold you to that, and i am fairly certain you will be seen to be dead wrong. come the 30th Dec 2009 israel will not only exist but be seen to be a fundamentally 'healthy' sovereign nation.

Apologies, I must have written poorly.

By existing on its own, I mean without the massive aid from America, the frequent vetos in the UN etc etc. I do not imagine that this is going to fundamentally change any time soon merely as the President has changed.

[Ironside]

no, i just think that after years of neglect (in terms of aid, not weapons) from other arab states, the palestinians wont want to listen to those countries. and AFAIK, iran is the main supplier of weapons for those two anyhow.

and expecting israel to listen to them is just a bit far-fetched.

I was more refering to that the tone of rethoric has changed in thier standard response for about any major Israeli operation, not that they got enough influence to make someone listen to the response.

How exactly do you think the Iranian arms end up at Hamas? Teleportation? Or perhaps smuggling through a certain border?

[Fragony]

lol http://snaphanen.dk/upload/2008/12/2...00x600q851.jpg

[Tribesman]

come the 30th Dec 2009 israel will not only exist but be seen to be a fundamentally 'healthy' sovereign nation.

If it were a fundamentally healthy sovereign nation it would have those little things that make a nation , like borders and a recognised capital .

[Furunculus]

it does.

[Hooahguy]

I was more refering to that the tone of rethoric has changed in thier standard response for about any major Israeli operation, not that they got enough influence to make someone listen to the response.

How exactly do you think the Iranian arms end up at Hamas? Teleportation? Or perhaps smuggling through a certain border?

oh. i guess that iran somehow smuggles weapons to hamas through a border or somehow evades the israeli blockade.

[rory_20_uk]

Internationally recognised borders within which is stays, and an internationally recognised capital.

The facts of Jerusalem being disputed between two sides and illegal settlements (and a border fence that even israel's own cours rules as illegal) is far from either a recognised capital or borders.

[Hooahguy]

Why not absorb the Israeli casualties without retaliation? Accept a few dozen deaths per year as part of the mortgage on that land and move forward. Eventually, even the arab street would begin to villify Hamas and others if they were killing innocents without either a) destabilizing Israel or b) drawing a response.

a wise idea, but i dont think that israelis would like this. i mean, if rockets were falling around you, you would demand action from your government against the perpetrators, even if it meant the risk of killing civilians. i know i certainly would.

[Hooahguy]

Internationally recognised borders within which is stays, and an internationally recognised capital.

The facts of Jerusalem being disputed between two sides and illegal settlements (and a border fence that even israel's own cours rules as illegal) is far from either a recognised capital or borders.

jerusalem isnt the recognized capital of israel? it says that it is in all my atlases and such.

i would say it is- just not for a few arab nations.

[Lorenzo_H]

When the most persecuted group in history comes up against yet another enraged group of "Death-to-Israel" Islamic militants who victimise themselves when their agression is responded to with the full retaliation of the most effective fighting nation pound for pound in the world, I know who I support.

[rory_20_uk]

jerusalem isnt the recognized capital of israel? it says that it is in all my atlases and such.

i would say it is- just not for a few arab nations.

East Jerusalem is, not the entirity of it.

[Hooahguy]

funny- my atlases say "jerusalem" not 'east jerusalem"

[Tribesman]

it does.

No seriously
Ok this time seriously
Right then Furunculus , where are they ?

jerusalem isnt the recognized capital of israel?

no it isn't , because Jerusalem is not recognised as a legally established part of the country .

i would say it is- just not for a few arab nations.

No its not by anyone .
That is why there are no embassies there , Italy Greece and America have consulates in Jerusalem but their actual embassies are in what they recognise as the legal capital.....Tel-Aviv .
I suppose its a bit like Israel having a consulate in Taipai but an embassy in Beijing , the people in Taipai may call it the capital of China but it isn't really the case is it .

[tibilicus]

jerusalem isnt the recognized capital of israel? it says that it is in all my atlases and such.

i would say it is- just not for a few arab nations.

I'm pretty sure Tel Aviv is meant to be that capitol of Israel but after the war Israel decided to keep the city as their little war trophy. In reality as the original partition suggests Jerusalem should be a U.N administrated neutral city but hey, Israel just thought they'd keep it. Jerusalem shouldn't even be in their hands but hey as the ruling Israelis would say "land, land , land."

[Paradox]

i would say it is- just not for a few arab nations.

Of course we don't think it belongs to Israel, Palestinians had to go through metal detectors to enter the second holiest mosque in Islam. Not only that, but they were massacred in it.
Frankly, I don't put the whole blame on Israel due to what happened recently, just most of it. I admire the fact that a single Israeli is enough for them to go crazy. At least they're not sitting on their asses while their brothers are being massacred.

And now the Islamic New Year won't be celebrated anywhere, not even in Dubai!

[Crazed Rabbit]

IDF Youtube channel - showing videos from planes striking targets among others. So be forewarned.

Eventually, even the arab street would begin to villify Hamas and others if they were killing innocents without either a) destabilizing Israel or b) drawing a response.

That could be a long, long time.

CR

[Vladimir]

Hey man, give peace a chance.

Ignore Tribesman. He's just trying to pick a fight through his pedantry.

[Jolt]

The only problems have arisen when the surrounding Muslim nations attacked Israel and, as you can tell by this thread, Jews in general.

Wrong. The attacks were a consequence, not a cause. The problems began when the UN created a country where it shouldn't have created, and illegitimately, because by doing so, they'd have to create a bucketload more of countries whose people also want independence. If, instead of Israel, there had been a joint Arab-Jew Palestine, then there would have been no attack. But the jews wanted a country of their own, where they wouldn't have to share power with the arabs.

[Idaho]

Israel is an apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing. On top of which it is aggressive and expansionist and has killed over 3000 Palestinians in the last few years. It isn't that suprising that it gets a hundred or so casualties from Palestinian attacks. They are just lucky in their enemies. The Palestinian strategy is stuck in a losing rut.

[rvg]

Israel is an apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing. On top of which it is aggressive and expansionist and has killed over 3000 Palestinians in the last few years...

Maybe so. I would argue though that Israel cannot afford to have a less aggressive stance given past and present actions of its neghbors and the Palestinians. Arab states ganged up on Israel in 3 separate wars and 3 times they went home crying. It's time to stopthe stupid and pointless violence (aka rocket attacks) and start building a peaceful future. Fatah is led by the pragmatists and technocrats who understand that, while Hamas is ruled solely by warmongers who only understand the most widely understood language on Earth. And Israel is more than happy to speak that language whenever the opportunity presents itself. Regardless of its origin Israel is here to stay. The sooner Hamas stops the violence the better off its people would be.

[Ironside]

oh. i guess that iran somehow smuggles weapons to hamas through a border or somehow evades the israeli blockade.

Good, very good.

"Pulls up hooahguy's atlas". And as you can see from these maps, Gaza strip is between two countries, Egypt and Israel. Care to guess what country most smuggling goes through and guess what influence that nation can have on the smuggling?

So slightly more blunt, what will be the consequnces of that Hamas' main supply line will be severly weakened?

[Tribesman]

Fatah is led by the pragmatists and technocrats who understand that

That has to be the funniest thing written so far .

[Fragony]

That has to be the funniest thing written so far .

More true for Fatah then it is for Hamas and these two are the only flavour

[tibilicus]

Israel is an apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing. On top of which it is aggressive and expansionist and has killed over 3000 Palestinians in the last few years. It isn't that suprising that it gets a hundred or so casualties from Palestinian attacks. They are just lucky in their enemies. The Palestinian strategy is stuck in a losing rut.

That's some of the best input in this thread. well said.

[Idaho]

Maybe so. I would argue though that Israel cannot afford to have a less aggressive stance given past and present actions of its neghbors and the Palestinians. Arab states ganged up on Israel in 3 separate wars and 3 times they went home crying. It's time to stopthe stupid and pointless violence (aka rocket attacks) and start building a peaceful future.

Hmmm... last Arab instigated Israeli war was over 30 years ago. You think they may be dining out a little long on that scare story? Since the 1970s the picture has been one of Arab diplomacy. Hizbollah were created by Israel doing some regional powerplay in Lebanon. Take a look at what happened in the Palestinian refugee camps in that country. Perhaps they don't teach that in American text books.

As for stupid and pointless rocket attacks - I agree they are stupid and pointless. They draw attention away from the drastically greater number of Palestinians killed by state-of-the-art US military equipment given free to Israel by the US - but as someone has said - what has this got to do with the US

Did you hear the latest US spokesman? "Hamas has to declare a ceasefire that we can believe in... er.. not we, I mean Israel can believe in".

[Fragony]

Since the 1970s the picture has been one of Arab diplomacy.

You have got to be kidding me. There is the region and there is the world around it.

[rvg]

Hmmm... last Arab instigated Israeli war was over 30 years ago. You think they may be dining out a little long on that scare story? Since the 1970s the picture has been one of Arab diplomacy. Hizbollah were created by Israel doing some regional powerplay in Lebanon. Take a look at what happened in the Palestinian refugee camps in that country. Perhaps they don't teach that in American text books.

Arab diplomacy? Man, those words don't even go together, it's like saying "Israeli democracy". I mean, Sadat got killed for being diplomatic with Israel. Now Abbas is catching fire from every corner of the Arab world for not unilaterally condemning Israel. I'm not trying to sugarcoat what Israel does, but the Palestinian side has definitely shot itself in the foot on numerous occasions by refusing to acknowledge the objective reality.

[Idaho]

Arab diplomacy? Man, those words don't even go together, it's like saying "Israeli democracy". I mean, Sadat got killed for being diplomatic with Israel. Now Abbas is catching fire from every corner of the Arab world for not unilaterally condemning Israel. I'm not trying to sugarcoat what Israel does, but the Palestinian side has definitely shot itself in the foot on numerous occasions by refusing to acknowledge the objective reality.

I agree the Pals have made a mess of the crap hand they have been played. But the Israelis are the ones with the most blood on their hands. They have control of the best weapons and best media - and still they aren't winning.

[Fragony]

If the Israeli's have the best media they sure do a poor job out of using it because just about every newspaper is predictably channeling the negative energy towards them. The 'quality media' have actually managed to mentally block the attacks of Hamas and actually managed to imprint the idea that this is the result of a single mortar-attack.

[Lord Winter]

I agree the Pals have made a mess of the crap hand they have been played. But the Israelis are the ones with the most blood on their hands. They have control of the best weapons and best media - and still they aren't winning.

When was the quality of your weapons or winning a war a measure of morality?