Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Tribesman]

It seems to me that if you don't want your own women and kids killed then stop firing rockets at Palestinian schools and day care centres. Simple really.

Works both ways don't it .

[InsaneApache]

Works both ways don't it

Who started it then? Doh! The evil Israelis of course, going over to Palestine, taking all the jobs and women.

Anyway I would have thought that left leaning members would be overjoyed at the results of unregulated mass immigration.

[Guildenstern]

I'm more concerned over whether Israel's response will (a) stop Hamas from firing these rockets, and/or (b) further Israel's long-term security.

The results of previous Israeli military strikes into Palestinian territory suggest that (a) is generally not true, at least outside the very short term. Israeli politics suggests that no one has any clue whether anything Israel is doing will achieve or harm (b).

I think Israel should consider why international opinion seems to be swinging against it, and take steps to counter that swing, in addition to or instead of military actions like this.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Er - you do know it's a local folk tradition in certain parts of Africa that has zilch to do with the practicioners' confessional affiliations, right ? The local Christians and whatnots there practice it too AFAIK...

Yes, I do know that, I do not think it is practiced by the majority of Muslims, and is indeed condemned by many Arabian Islamic scholars. I do think it is interesting that that is the only one you decided to debate.

[Fragony]

I'm more concerned over whether Israel's response will (a) stop Hamas from firing these rockets, and/or (b) further Israel's long-term security.

The results of previous Israeli military strikes into Palestinian territory suggest that (a) is generally not true, at least outside the very short term. Israeli politics suggests that no one has any clue whether anything Israel is doing will achieve or harm (b).

I think Israel should consider why international opinion seems to be swinging against it, and take steps to counter that swing, in addition to or instead of military actions like this.

Assuming this is really about land but it isn't, this is a religious conflict. Never will never stop they are too allah-crazed, as we have seen. They already had peace but they can't control theirselves the need to kill is too strong and the need to kill will always be too strong. Just because the media is turning on them doesn't mean people are, our quality media are predictably enough united in prayer channeling their negative energy towards Israel and the lefties are predictably enough mentally blocking the thousands of rockets that fell on Israel (I don't think their brain is able to deal with such facts, you can tell them about it but they will point out that you can't handle the truth) and calling for a third intifada but it really pays to read the comments below the articles.

[Idaho]

It seems to me that if you don't want your own women and kids killed then stop firing rockets at Israeli schools and day care centres. Simple really.

2 points to make here:

Firstly there was a ceasefire which stopped when one side launched a bombing raid killing 6 people on the 3rd November. I wonder which side launched that raid?

Secondly how many are innocents are killed in total by each side in these raids - and what justification is there for collective punishment?

[Tribesman]

Just because the media is turning on them doesn't mean people are, our quality media are predictably enough united in prayer channeling their negative energy towards Israel and the lefties are predictably enough mentally blocking the thousands of rockets that fell on Israel (I don't think their brain is able to deal with such facts, you can tell them about it but they will point out that you can't handle the truth)

Can't handle the truth .
Frag you wouldn't know the truth if it announced itself in 10 foot high neon letters with a trumpet fanfare and firework display while it bit you on the nose .
The truth Frag is that Israel has tried this before , it doesn't work . They tried it again in Lebanon where they launched thousands of rockets thousands of bombs and thousands of shells , it achieved nothing apart from making Israel look stupid and weak while cementing Hezballahs grip on the territory .

[Fragony]

The truth Frag is that Israel has tried this before, it doesn't work.

If there is anything that hasn't worked over the year's it are peace treaties. It isn't a matter of tying to be loved for the Israeli's it's a matter of not being killed by hatebeards. The hatebeards are pretty clear on what there goal is, thought experiment; shave their beards, shave their heads, give them a BNP logo.

[Tribesman]

If there is anything that hasn't worked over the year's it are peace treaties.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried .

[naut]

Frag you are too much.

"If you don't understand colonialism, ethnic cleansing and the war for freedom, you can't understand Palestine." - Ilan Pappe

What you fail to understand is just how ingrained the hatred is in the minds of both sides. And that the violence is not the most pressing issue. The most pressing issue is that both sides fail to gain a wider perspective and/or question why the current situation stands as it does. They are happy to believe what has been told to them by their parents or political leaders. No matter where you hear something, or read something, it is going to be biased. Yet, it is your responsibility to understand and acknowledge that there will be bias, as with any source of information and therefore it is up to you to question it's reliability. This unfortunately does not happen, thus we are left with a perpetually open-ended conflict

The posts hooahguy made show this perfectly. He has obviously been given his views on the subject by his parents, and his parents would almost certainly be the same. Force fed opinion from an early age, without doing his own research and investigation to reach his own conclusions. Either that or he has undertaken a very one sided research effort.

Both Israel and the Arab states are to blame. BOTH of them. They both engage in unspeakable violence and blood-shed. Both have caused untold suffering on the other side, as well as caused suffering among their own people. Whether it's Israeli soldiers going into refugee camps and murdering innocents or bombing civilian centres with F16 bombers. Or whether it's Hezbolah firing mortars from Lebanon into Israeli settlements or suicide bombers blowing up buses. It doesn't matter. Violence against innocents, whomever they may be, is never justified. Especially not when the violence being carried out is thinly veiled collective punishment.

I implore everyone to read any of the works of Avi Schlaim, especially The Iron Wall, Ilan Pappe, Edward Said, Walid Khalidi, Richard A. Falk, Ella Shohat, Nur-eldeen Masalha, John Pilger, Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh, Shabtai Teveth, Norman Finkelstein, Daniel Pipes, Amir Taheri, Anita Shapira. (As a side note, reading the early work of Benny Morris and then comparing his viewpoint to where he stands now really shows how fickle human perspective is and how easy it is for people to be swayed from progressiveness to unadulterated bias.)

Disclaimer: For those of you that can't be bothered to find where my bias lies, I stand slightly pro-Palestinian.

[Watchman]

Yes, I do know that, I do not think it is practiced by the majority of Muslims, and is indeed condemned by many Arabian Islamic scholars. I do think it is interesting that that is the only one you decided to debate.

Well, it seemed there wasn't that much grounds for it given that Europeans were doing the rest of the list not all that long ago... until they eventually tired of murdering each other (and the occasional outsider) over confessional issues. (Northern Ireland being a conditional anomaly.) "All but the most fanatical had begun to realize grapeshot might not actually be a good theological argument", as it were.

You know, Enlightenment and all that junk. Sidelining religion etc., the fun stuff some colonial cranks keep claiming will be the downfall of our civilisation and so on.

I figured that was obvious and universal knowledge, and hence needed no reiterating...
(Also, I had to leave for work.)

The Muslims just haven't yet gone through the same process. My personal bet is that the current wave of hardcore revivalism - limited to fringe diehards - is a clear sign that said process of secularisation is at work, as such extremist reactionarism was much in evidence at the early stages of the European equivalent.
Sure hope the poor buggers don't need to have to go through similar drawn-out spates of religiously inspired organised mass violence though...

[naut]

Israel is the only middle-east country currently considered a democracy in 2008 by the economist:
http://a330.g.akamai.net/7/330/25828...dex%202008.pdf

Any state that perpetrates occupation cannot be called a democratic state - Ilan Pappe.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It's being reported that Israeli ground forces have invaded Gaza in the last hour.

[Megas Methuselah]

Oh, God no... This just keeps getting better, doesn't it?

[Husar]

Any state that perpetrates occupation cannot be called a democratic state - Ilan Pappe.

Any state that perpetrates occupation after it's people voted for it in a referendum can be called a democratic state. - N. M. Vonken

[seireikhaan]

Any state that perpetrates occupation after it's people voted for it in a referendum can be called a democratic state. - N. M. Vonken

[tibilicus]

let's hope Israel doesn't get hit by to many IED's on its way in.

Sigh, all this for political reasons. I hate democracy...

[Fragony]

The Muslims just haven't yet gone through the same process.

I can think of better pets, why not take a cat

[Lord Winter]

let's hope Israel doesn't get hit by to many IED's on its way in.

On the other hand if Isreal gets bloodied a bit they may think twice next time.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

On the other hand if Isreal gets bloodied a bit they may think twice next time.

The whole reason they're in there is to make some terrorists think twice.

[Hooahguy]

The posts hooahguy made show this perfectly. He has obviously been given his views on the subject by his parents, and his parents would almost certainly be the same. Force fed opinion from an early age, without doing his own research and investigation to reach his own conclusions. Either that or he has undertaken a very one sided research effort.

so you have visited my family and know what they tell me?
funny. they tell me nothing. i form my own views. in fact i have done research. its just that what ihave found not to your liking, you write it off as propaganda.
very disgusting.

Whether it's Israeli soldiers going into refugee camps and murdering innocents

do you have proof of this?

[Lord Winter]

The whole reason they're in there is to make some terrorists think twice.

Well there's still attacks going on so they need to rethink there approach a little. All there doing is handing Hamas Propaganda material.

[Hooahguy]

So what kind of democracy restricts religious worship to those over 50s like Israel has done today for Muslims only? Or attempt to prevent demonstrations against their state terror by Palestinians?

In any case, being a democracy doesn't give you a blank check to beat down anyone else, especially since Palestinians democratically elected their government too.

um, excuse me? muslims have FULL religious rights. they can worship as they please. they are not prevented from doing so- only when religion turns to violence it is prevented.

[Jolt]

Two things will happen (Don't call me a prophet plz): Israel will take significant casualties, as Hamas has been preparing for and has provoked this invasion since the last Lebanon-Israeli War.
Hezbollah will most probably attack North of Israel, as they too have strengthened and dug in deeply, and want to inflict another defeat to the Israeli forces.

[Tribesman]

On the other hand if Isreal gets bloodied a bit they may think twice next time.

Unfortunately not , they got their arses handed to them in Lebanon and achieved nothing , the whole reason they pulled out of Gaza was because they couldn't afford it , but now they are going back in just to look "decisive" before next months elections .

The whole reason they're in there is to make some terrorists

A very accurate statement there Mars
I take it the two extra words were a typo ?

i form my own views.

Yes I had noticed

in fact i have done research

its just that what ihave found not to your liking, you write it off as propaganda.

Damn , and there was me thinking that what you have "found" with your "research" is mainly bollox .

do you have proof of this?

Do some bloody research .

[Hax]

um, excuse me? muslims have FULL religious rights. they can worship as they please. they are not prevented from doing so- only when religion turns to violence it is prevented.

As far as I can tell, hooahguy is right in this aspect. I can find very little about oppression concerning Muslims in Israel, though it might have changed over the last ten (?) years.

[KarlXII]

Hail Israel!

[Hooahguy]

Damn , and there was me thinking that what you have "found" with your "research" is mainly bollox .


Do some bloody research .

indeed. i have. you see, my research doesn't conform with your views, so naturally you write it off as 'bollox". and i think that your "research" is also bollox. see how simple it ius to turn the tables?

i find no real proof of an israeli government approved mission by the IDF of going into refugee camps and shooting civilians. if you have i will look at it and if need be i will concede. unlike you i am willing to concede when i am proven wrong.

[Lord Winter]

Unfortunately not , they got their arses handed to them in Lebanon and achieved nothing , the whole reason they pulled out of Gaza was because they couldn't afford it , but now they are going back in just to look "decisive" before next months elections .

They lost 121 men in lebonon, which isn't a ton when you look at the big picture. If they carry this out again and lose even more and still see the violence going on, then they may start inching away from that big red button. I'm not saying it would cause world peace but it would at least keep the Isrealis from bombing the out of Gaza every time a mortar is fired.

[Hooahguy]

Are you suggesting that unless one goes there they cannot have an opinion? This is not something I can comply with because...

...I haven't been to planet Venus either but I trust it is a infernal hellhole.

Sure it is good to have a first hand look but we are entitled to our opinions regardless thank you very much. You are probably not in Gaza at the moment either :)

no, you misunderstand me.
i did not say that you couldnt have opinion.s i dint not say that at all. i said the way to have the FAIREST opionion is to go to the place of conflict.
let me give you an example:
a few years ago Amnesty International condemned Israel for destroying the house of a known terrorist leader. afterwards, they went to the site, got the real story, and found out that no one was in the house and israel found valuable info in the house regarding future suicide plots and was able to foil them.
see?