Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Tribesman]

Oh, I'm sorry, when did the Israelis start committing genocide or state that they'd like to?

Ah so you are unfamiliar with Frags source of "wisdom" that he posted and who he says he sees nothing wrong with ?

Look, it's got nothing to do with hating the Arabs. On the other hand, Hamas actually is an anti-Semetic organization. So, why don't I suggest that you're all anti-Semetic? Come on. Supporting Israel doesn't mean you hate Arabs - it means you don't like the people who broke this ceasefire that much (and that wasn't Israel, it was Hamas).

What that episode has to do with Mars is a rather nasty form of ultra racist revisionist zionism that makes the old revisionist zionism which Einstein called "closely akin in its organization,
methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist
parties. " seem decidedly tame by comparison .
Might I suggest that before you defend a view that is being attacked you start by finding out what that view is that you wish to defend .

As I said earlier Frag really dropped himself in the crap by bring crazy fundamentalist Jewish terrorists into the topic .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

What that episode has to do with Mars

Oh, good. I'm not referring to the video, simply to your comment. You and Frags can discuss the video all you like.

[Incongruous]

Did you read the Globe and Mail article I linked to?

Of course I did - but Israel isn't committing genocide. If they wanted to do so, I think that there wouldn't be many Palestinians left at the moment.

That article was top notch Mars!

I really liked this bit

The pullout signalled a sea change in Israeli attitudes. After decades of conflict with their immediate neighbours, the Palestinians, Israelis were eager for an end to it all. Even the hardest of hard-liners, Ariel Sharon, had come around to the view that it was time to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories, pull back to defensible borders and leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves, even if that meant the emergence of a Palestinian state that the Israeli right had resisted for so long.

Awsome! What a load of it is...

The withdrawal was a trial of their willingness and ability to become responsible neighbours.

Is hat Israel this refers to Mars?

After winning Palestinian legislative elections in 2006, Hamas seized control of Gaza in June of 2007.

So wait, the article admits that Hamas one fair and free elections, then states that they "siezed" control? Hmmm, did you actually read this article?

his was what Israeli rightists and settlers had warned would happen: Handed over to the Palestinians, a pistol-shaped Gaza would become a deadly weapon pointed straight at the heart of Israel.

What else did you expect these nutters to say? They had just ben told that they could no longer continue living upon stolen land, to zionists thats the worst thing you can say.

Much as Israelis (still) want the conflict to be over, they have lost whatever small confidence they had that the Palestinians might be tolerable neighbours. The idea of pulling out of the West Bank, only to see it become another, bigger base for terror, now seems unthinkable. Mr. Netanyahu, head of the Likud party, could return to office in next month's election on a tough program.

Well, the article is either in need of information about the Westbank or is in support of continued opression and genocide. I would say a bit of both. This article is a poorly researched bit of nothing, so typical of most Western media outlets when concerned with Palestine.

There is one remaining hope: that Palestinians see the disaster their leaders have wrought in Gaza and choose another course. That seems unlikely now that they are under attack, and the natural reaction is to rally around the green flag of Hamas. But maybe, just maybe, after the current violence is over, they will think again. The only way for Palestinians to get a state is to build one. The place to start is Gaza.

Ugh just ugh, what a load of crap.

So yes Mars I have read that article and I feel it was a waste of time.

[Tribesman]

Oh, good. I'm not referring to the video, simply to your comment.

So you was refering to a comment but not refering to what the comment was ??????

So if I was to write "a whale is a big mammal that lives in the sea"
you might respond with "airplanes can be big too"

[Fragony]

No they are not, you obviously have been reading some very strange websites Frag, Hamas was elected by a vast majority of Palestinians and they gain their support from there many charitable actions.

Like distributing medicine, often from Israel, among their supporters

[Incongruous]

Like distributing medicine, often from Israel, among their supporters

So...

You admit that Hamas do charitable works, amongst which is the distribution of medicine?

[Fragony]

So...

You admit that Hamas do charitable works, amongst which is the distribution of medicine?

The medicine they recieve from Israel. Yes Hamas also does charity work if you want to call destributing foreign aid to their supporters the hight of ethical fortitude. I know Hamas was elected, as I said earlier in the thread that kinda makes me less concerned about civilians. Most of what still lives there and thus havent been killed in the numerous mass-executions indeed voted for Hamas. If Israel wants to kill as many Palestinians as Hamas has they will have to start enjoying it.

[Incongruous]

The medicine they recieve from Israel. Yes Hamas also does charity work if you want to call destributing foreign aid to their supporters the hight of ethical fortitude. I know Hamas was elected, as I said earlier in the thread that kinda makes me less concerned about civilians. Most of what still lives there and thus havent been killed in the numerous mass-executions indeed voted for Hamas. If Israel wants to kill as many Palestinians as Hamas has they will have to start enjoying it.

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm perplexed.

[Fragony]

What on earth are you talking about?

I'm perplexed.

I am talking about the numerous mass executions of palestinian civilians, didn't you know? No surprise there. I can put some juicy video's here, you know wall, civilians, machine gun, ratatatatata but it would break rules and they aren't so hard to find anyway.

[Incongruous]

I am talking about the numerous mass executions of palestinian civilians, didn't you know? No surprise there. I can put some juicy video's here, you know wall, civilians, machine gun, ratatatatata but it would break rules and they aren't so hard to find anyway.

PM me

[Fragony]

PM me

Have 'fun'

By the way, I guess the pouring gassoline 'wannalight' trick people I know from there are talking about is a bit too much for youtube, but at least it's free gassoline, like fertiliser somewhat used the wrong way but at least it's redistributed.

[Tribesman]

The medicine they recieve from Israel.

Do you mean the medicine from other countries that has to pass through Israel ?

Meanwhile on the reality front the IDF is revising some statements from earlier .
Such a revision should not have been neccesary since xiahou offered some reports earlier that confirmed the IDF new version of events even though they was presented as "confirming" the original version when they did nothing of the sort .
The UN school being used as a refugee shelter that was attacked by the IDF was not being used for attacks from within the building , neither were the school grounds being used for the attacks , the two named militants killed in the incident were not killed in the school or its grounds .
The IDF wishes to apologise if some people feel slightly misled by its earlier propoganda and felt that on the sayso of the IDF they could attempt to justify the atrocity .

In other news the IDF has issued new rules of engagement .
Despite the Israeli courts and the IDFs' advocate general ruling that live ammunition cannot be fired at protesters unless there is a direct threat IDf has decided that live ammunition can be used to shoot protesters .

[Fragony]

Do you mean the medicine from other countries that has to pass through Israel ?

Yes these, what happened to the other border? Egypt? Should be a piece of cake to organise aid if their arab brother didn't care so very very deeply. Everything quiet on the non-western front.

[Furunculus]

"The pullout signalled a sea change in Israeli attitudes. After decades of conflict with their immediate neighbours, the Palestinians, Israelis were eager for an end to it all. Even the hardest of hard-liners, Ariel Sharon, had come around to the view that it was time to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories, pull back to defensible borders and leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves, even if that meant the emergence of a Palestinian state that the Israeli right had resisted for so long."

Awsome! What a load of it is...

What is wrong with that statement, it appears to be perfectly accurate? The only problem i can see with it is that you might find the statement difficult to wrestle into your; "teh evil j00's" argument...........

[Tribesman]

Yes these, what happened to the other border? Egypt?

As yes , you mean the single crossing at Rafah that is run through treaty by joint operations by Egypt Israel the EU and the PA .
Damn Frag thats a bloody good question . That really needs some thought to answer .
Well lets see , why isn't aid coming up from that crossing ?
Errrrrr......before the elections it was closed by israel nearly 90% of the time , since the elections it has been closed entirely by Israel and the EU .
Like you say its a piece of cake for their arab brethren to ship stuff up from Egypt , if the crossing wasn't closed of course .

Would you like to try another question ? perhaps one that makes sense .

[Banquo's Ghost]

For those who like to characterise Israel as an unthinking bully by drawing comparisons that are odious, it might help your reflections to read this editorial from Haaretz.

The lessons of previous wars, during which the IDF destroyed infrastructure targets and the homes of civilians but did not gain the quiet it had sought, have not been internalized. Israel's justified rationale in acting against rocket launchers has been increasingly damaged over two weeks. The legitimacy and understanding extended to Israel melt away amid the pictures of killing and ruin. Accusations of war crimes are already being bandied about in Israel. This war needs to move immediately to the diplomatic track and agreements that will end the fantasies and delusions of both sides.

Just as the argument that all Gazans deserve punishment because some voted for Hamas (one of the wickedest fallacies I have read in some while, as even the hardest of hearts would be unable to stretch that to the 260+ children now dead) it is equally specious to say all Israelis approve of the cruelty being perpetrated by their government.

Generalisations, stereotypes and black/white arguments are precisely the root cause of all this grief - as is the time-honoured inability to recognise that every single victim on both sides had a life and dreams and hopes, just like we might.

[Tribesman]

What is wrong with that statement, it appears to be perfectly accurate?

wow so many hard questions .
to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories
They didn't , simple as that .
They pulled 8000 illegal settlers out of the occupied territories and put 12000 illegal settlers into the occupied territories , that is not extricating from the quagmire it is getting deeper into it .

[Fragony]

As yes , you mean the single crossing at Rafah that is run through treaty by joint operations by Egypt Israel the EU and the PA .

So, this is indeed a bit bigger then Palestine, as I said earlier, and blaming Israel for all this would be pretty narrowminded

[Tribesman]

So, this is indeed a bit bigger then Palestine, as I said earlier, and blaming Israel for all this would be pretty narrowminded

Just like blaming Arabs Muslims Palestinians or Hamas is .
Hey Frag does that mean you a really narrowminded ?

[Fragony]

Just like blaming Arabs Muslims Palestinians or Hamas is .
Hey Frag does that mean you a really narrowminded ?

"Arabs Muslims Palestinians" I don't blame them I just don't feel sorry for them. Blaming Hamas for current events, absolutely yes.

[Furunculus]

Just as the argument that all Gazans deserve punishment because some voted for Hamas (one of the wickedest fallacies I have read in some while............

I hope you do not refer to me with that statement, because i certainly do not believe Gazans deserve collective punishment.

My point is that a representative polity functions precisely because the individual delegates responsibility to a political class to act in their name. The individual must therefore take responsibility for the actions committed in his name, and does so in sound conscience because the community have a sufficient pool shared values that decisions made are likely to reflect the will of the individual.
If the individual does not have confidence that his community will render decisions he can abide by then he should leave.
By this reasoning I accept some responsibility for the London bombing given that they were in part a response to the UK's active interference in the affairs of other nations around the world, and I do so because I support the UK sticking its nose into other countries business. The republic of ireland has not to my knowledge been bombed by islamic terrorists, but it does not depose via militarily means the governments of arab/islamic countries at a time when militant islam as an ideology gets its knickers in a twist over western interference.

Gazans did elect a terrorist group whose aim is to destroy the neigbouring 'superpower' and who will launch these attacks from the homes and hospices of the community they were elected to govern, which leads me to believe the Gazan polity is intrinsically stupid.
However I do recognise that the rest of the world treats Gazans as something akin to dog-dirt, a fact which makes it very difficult for a Gazan to leave his community if he cannot abide the decisions to be taken in his name.

Given that national and international law allows for the following:
> a nation state to engage in military action designed to achieve a military advantage with the aim of defending ones citizens from attack (i.e. counter-battery fire at a Hamas launch site, even if there might be civilians there).
> that the legal liability for the death of a human shield lies with the hostage taker and not the rescuer who kills the hostage by accident (i.e. Hamas launching rockets from homes and hospices and schools of the Gazan people).
I find myself with little sympathy for the Gazan people that elected Hamas, and a great deal of sympathy for those that did not.

Either way it is:
> a tragedy that Gazan children are dieing
> a cause for question over whether there is sufficient community to forge a valid representative polity out of Gaza
> still legitimate for Israel to defend its citizens via attacking Hamas in Gaza providing they can justify that they can act with sufficient military competence to not create a humanitarian disaster, (which for some people is one dead Gazan civilian while for others that is anything short of decimating the local population in the hope that of accidentally killing the terrorists).

So in short, i do not support collective punishment, if that is what you believe.

[Furunculus]

wow so many hard questions .
to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories
They didn't , simple as that .
They pulled 8000 illegal settlers out of the occupied territories and put 12000 illegal settlers into the occupied territories , that is not extricating from the quagmire it is getting deeper into it .

it is if it forms part of a process whereby israel de-legitimises settlement in the occupied territories.

[Tribesman]

If the individual does not have confidence that his community will render decisions he can abide by then he should leave.

How does someone leave if they are stuck in an open air prison ?

it is if it forms part of a process whereby israel de-legitimises settlement in the occupied territories.

So it isn't then is it as Israel continues to expand the illegal settlements doesn't it .
Sharons government who that article claims was pulling out of the quagmire put out tenders for the construction of 55 new settlements .
Olmerts government has put out tenders for another 7 .
and that is only the official ones , it doesn't count groups like the Kahane offshoot "hilltop youth " who just park a couple of caravans surround them with razor wire and claim that they have just made more Israel .
The settler population has gone 22,000 in the west bank a short while back to 282,000 ,
East Jerusalem has gone from 76,000 to 184,000 and Golan has gone from 7,000 to 18,000 .

If you consider that an act of de-legitimising settlement you have a rather strange view of things .

[Furunculus]

If the individual does not have confidence that his community will render decisions he can abide by then he should leave.

However I do recognise that the rest of the world treats Gazans as something akin to dog-dirt, a fact which makes it very difficult for a Gazan to leave his community if he cannot abide the decisions to be taken in his name.

I find myself with little sympathy for the Gazan people that elected Hamas, and a great deal of sympathy for those that did not.

How does someone leave if they are stuck in an open air prison ?

read. and. learn.

[Husar]

So if I was to write "a whale is a big mammal that lives in the sea"
you might respond with "airplanes can be big too"

Looks like a perfectly reasonable chain of association to me.

Just as the argument that all Gazans deserve punishment because some voted for Hamas (one of the wickedest fallacies I have read in some while, as even the hardest of hearts would be unable to stretch that to the 260+ children now dead) it is equally specious to say all Israelis approve of the cruelty being perpetrated by their government.

Generalisations, stereotypes and black/white arguments are precisely the root cause of all this grief - as is the time-honoured inability to recognise that every single victim on both sides had a life and dreams and hopes, just like we might.

[Tribesman]

read. and. learn.

Learn what ?
That you bothered to make a statement even though you knew it was bollox .

I find myself with little sympathy for the Gazan people that elected Hamas, and a great deal of sympathy for those that did not.

Interesting , so you have sympathy for those who voted for a party that is riven by corruption and managed to put forward not a manifesto or a single policy statement despite the efforts of key people who are serving multiple life sentances for terrorism ?
Lets narrow it down shall we Furunculus , voters for which parties or which branches of which parties do you have sympathy for ?
BTW does that also mean you have little sympathy for Israelis who vote for the not very nice parties in Israeli elections ?
Would that mean its OK to bomb those Israelis because they must have asked for it ?

[Furunculus]

Learn what ?
That you bothered to make a statement even though you knew it was bollox .


Interesting , so you have sympathy for those who voted for a party that is riven by corruption and managed to put forward not a manifesto or a single policy statement despite the efforts of key people who are serving multiple life sentances for terrorism ?
Lets narrow it down shall we Furunculus , voters for which parties or which branches of which parties do you have sympathy for ?
BTW does that also mean you have little sympathy for Israelis who vote for the not very nice parties in Israeli elections ?
Would that mean its OK to bomb those Israelis because they must have asked for it ?

no, that you asked a stupid question that already had an explanation in the same post, about three lines down.

i have sympathy for those who did not vote for the people currently bringing armageddon down on the heads on Gazan's with their rocket attacks on israel.

[Incongruous]

"The pullout signalled a sea change in Israeli attitudes. After decades of conflict with their immediate neighbours, the Palestinians, Israelis were eager for an end to it all. Even the hardest of hard-liners, Ariel Sharon, had come around to the view that it was time to extricate Israel from the quagmire in the occupied territories, pull back to defensible borders and leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves, even if that meant the emergence of a Palestinian state that the Israeli right had resisted for so long."



What is wrong with that statement, it appears to be perfectly accurate? The only problem i can see with it is that you might find the statement difficult to wrestle into your; "teh evil j00's" argument...........

If that satement seems to be totally accurate to you then I rest my case

Specifically the "sea change" part, what a load of wonk. To leave the Palestinians to fend for themselves? What?

What does that mean, that although these netter settlers have stolen land from families living there for over a millenia its ok because they were looking after them by allowing them the privelege of a refugee camp in Gaza? Get real...

Teh evil jews argument, yes I do hate Jews No matter that I have been refering to Israelis as a nationality, however your self imposed connotation of Israelis=Jews says more about your own perception of the world than it does my own

For you a Jew living in Hammersmith must be the same as an Israeli living in Tel Aviv
How odd.

Frag, all I can find is mass executions of Fatah, I can see no slaughters of random Gazans.

Banquo
I realise that there are a few brave Israelis whom disagree and have the balls to speek out about their nations policy on Palestinians, indeed I recently read a very good article in the New Statesman written by an Israeli journo and it was very good.
I should perhaps limit myself to Israel and not Israeli? I will try harder.

[Fragony]

Oh, all you can find are mass executions of fatah members, ok I guess Israeli's are the bad guys after all.

[Tribesman]

Oh, all you can find are mass executions of fatah members, ok I guess Israeli's are the bad guys after all.

Fatah members ?
Do you mean foriegn backed and armed terrorists who tried to overthrow the elected government in a coup.
Whats up Bopa couldn't you find videos of Fatah executing Hamas members in Gaza and the west bank during the little Palestinian civil war ?

anyway , has anyone enjoyed Israels latest propoganda video release .
The nasty Hamas people have booby trapped a school with explosives .
Despicable , how can they use their children as human shield like that .
Oh but of course the school in question is really an abandoned derelict building that used to be a school .
Kinda ruins the propoganda angle doen't it .

i have sympathy for those who did not vote for the people currently bringing armageddon down on the heads on Gazan's with their rocket attacks on israel.

So you don't have sympathy for any supporters of the 3 main parties in the elections , nor two other parties who can be linked to attacks or the party that boycotted the elections .
So that means you have sympathy for people who voted for people like Third Way who Israel won't deal with because they won't recognise Israel as it is and insist on the right of return , actually didn't Israel decide to arrest politicians like that during the election because they didn't like their campaign .

Well that certainy narrows down you sympathies doesn't it .

Though I suppose that since 25% of the electorate didn't vote at all , those in East Jerusalem couldn't vote and much of the population is too young to vote then really you are quite sympathetic .
But hey lets be fair , you just mean those that voted for Hamas don't you .
So if Israel just bombs the hell out of those 10% and leaves the other 90% of palestinians alone it really would be doubleplusgood .