The Scourge of Ephesus [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

My accusation of GH could come to a screeching halt if this is the case.

I stated before I thought Manfredo could potentially be useful to town. And GH is an "old man", is he not? Manfredo is old, is he not? The abilities are the same, are they not?

He hasn't demonstrated pro-town alignment to me, though. He's still a dangerous man.

[Beefy187]

Well I will not vote for GH next phase. Possibly the last round depending on how things roll. Im still not convinced that GH is the mafia.

boudica ceased all activities for couple days. Both mafia and diplomacy. I'm willing to believe her reasoning for the RL

WIFOM as this may sound, but if I am the mafia, I would just accept your reasoning and go for a easy bandwagon.

3 shooters left. Not all players on your side are going to be innocent ATPG.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Beefy, both you and GH surviving to the end, as top suspects, will make it too late in my estimation. By then it won't MATTER if we lynch GH.

I still await your reasons WHY. I'm a curious man, I need to know WHY you're doing this.

Your scum scent is getting stronger.

[Beefy187]

Hah great. More I speak, more I get scummier.

I will only lynch claimed pro town at the very end, just for the sake of saying "hah you didn't trick me"

and say if GH was a mafia. Good we lynch a mafia. Theres still 2 killers roaming around. We got 2 more lynching opportunities. Why not, kill one of the suspect. Hope that his the mafia. If the game doesn't end, we lynch GH on the final round. That way GH or other buddies can hopefully kill each other.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Beefy, I like you, I respect you, and I generally trust your instincts too.

You haven't demonstrated proper reasoning as to why not GH. WHY not GH. I understand you don't want him dead this round. The only reason I can suspect is because he's your favorite little mafia buddy.

If you can demonstrate alternative reasoning, please do so now.

[Beefy187]

Beefy, I like you, I respect you, and I generally trust your instincts too.

You haven't demonstrated proper reasoning as to why not GH. WHY not GH. I understand you don't want him dead this round. The only reason I can suspect is because he's your favorite little mafia buddy.

If you can demonstrate alternative reasoning, please do so now.

Because we are screwed. The towns are screwed. Two lynch opportunities. Three killers. The only chance we have is let the mafia kill each other. Hopefully we get one of the other mafias. And leave GH The "Definitely" mafia for the final round.

Lynch me this round if you like. but if GH is mafia, we can't let him die. If he is protown. Even more so, we can't let him die.

Both ways, we are probably screwed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Doom and Gloom? FROM YOU, BEEFY?


I cannot believe my eyes. Nothing rattles you. How could you possibly dishonour yourself by conceding so soon?

but if GH is mafia, we can't let him die

I really hope this was a typo.

Lynch me this round if you like

Ummm you're not my top suspect, and I can't lynch anyone. Why would we lynch you this late in the game if you're a townie? Your logic doesn't add up, and it smells of WIFOM.

You haven't adequately explained why GH needs to live, and why you defend him here so vehemently. If we are probably screwed anyway, then it doesn't matter.

If you give up, suicide. If you're interested in town winning the game, either abstain, or give me a GOOD reason we need GH alive.

[Beefy187]

Because it raises our chance.

If GH is a mafia, he can go off kill each other. If he is not then his the role blocker.

I much rather if no one lynched me. I beg you to trust me for raising the possibility of victory. Lettinh GH live seems to be the only possible way to win as there is 2 more rounds and 3 killers.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I see what you're saying and I disagree wholeheartedly.

Because I feel your argument is unsound, and your motivations suspect, I cannot condone your suggested course of action.

I feel you may actually be GH's partner, from your unwavering and unfounded support of him. Chaotix has going for him that he hasn't come forward begging for GH's life after his bizarre role and never-been-killed status.


I could be doing him a favor, you know. If he is really a roleblocker, the other scums may keep him alive as a suspect. No matter what he is, my accusations of him help town, you know.

Am I the only one out here who gets this? I know I am not, several of you have indicated you don't like that GH is still alive.

[TinCow]

But old man, protects tourists.

The old many says he protects tourists, but doesn't actually do so. He didn't do anything to protect ATPG, and Seamus' most recent post with his night result PM indicates that he didn't do anything to protect Seamus either. So, GH claims he is a doctor. His targets have been attacked TWICE at night while he was supposed to be protecting them, yet his role does absolutely nothing to protect them, resulting in ATPG's death and Seamus being possessed or whatever that was.

We also have no evidence whatsoever that GH has ever even role blocked anyone. With the exception of the first night, kills/attacks have continued exactly as we expected them to. Two attacks per night from the digging duo and the random other one from Manfredo/vigilante/athlete/The Punisher/Batman/Manbat. Thus, GH has spent 7 nights targetting TWO people per night, yet there is no proof that he has ever successfully blocked anyone and conclusive proof that he FAILED to protect two people who were attacked while he should have been protecting them.

Ignore the above at your peril.

[edit] I will add this: even if GH is truly pro-town and clueless as to why the above has occurred, as he claims, lynching him is still the right move. Imagine any other player saying the same things GH is saying. Would GH advocate to keep them alive? No, he would not. He would move to lynch them, because the information indicates something fishy and something fishy is never good for the town.

[Beefy187]

He did protect me. And if pm quoting is allowed I would post it here.

And more I defend for him, more GH gets scumier so he survives anyway.

Be notified, I've played mafia number of time. And I think I know mafia strategy. Stay off your partner. Fight him, duel him, vote for him. But never defend for him. Never gather attention. Never fight against main stream opinion.

Unless im a uber mafia who breaks all the usual mafia tactics... Heh.. That was so embarrassing for me to say.

At this point, I cannot use anything but WIFOM to defend my self.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Tincow, in spite of our delightful sparring in another game, I agree wholeheartedly.

You know your stuff, and it is clear to me that we cannot corroborate GH's supposed "most valuable townie" skill at all. And if he were so valuable to town and dangerous to the mafia, he'd be long dead by now.

If he had a REAL role, the scums would have been seriously blocked.


Q- What about the nights they were supposedly blocked? Hmmmm???
A- WHY didn't GH follow up on that and block the same people twice, thus ensuring they were mafia and preventing needless townie deaths?




Conclusion: GH is intentionally leading town to the grave.

Rebuttal? Explanations? Beefy, care to continue being apologetic for him?

[TinCow]

Don't confuse me with an ally, ATPG. The nature of your death write-up makes me think you were scum of some kind. However, you still should have been protected by GH.

(As noted many times by many people, the above is said exclusively in the context of the game.)

[Askthepizzaguy]

How well I know that people cannot blindly trust me.


However, if I could beg everyone's attention for one small moment:

How many people died in the writeups in a potentially incriminating way? How many claimed to have been framed?

I wasn't keeping track, but it was a lot, if I recall.




I don't ask for blind trust. I simply ask for the arguments to be reasonable, and for people to be open minded enough to consider them. Vigilance is what I'd expect... from a townie of Tincow's stripe.

[Beefy187]

Long shot, but mafia was hoping GH to be lynched a long time ago. Suspect of the mafia is those who pushed for GHs death for long time now. Killing him now will confirm his innocence.

Or GH has a special role to be immune from mafia attacks.

This is not very traditional mafia is it? Anything is possible.

I get what you mean. If we don't lynch GH now, even if we kill GH in the final round, he could win and it is too late.
We lynch him next round. Good job. We still have 2 more roaming around. Blind. Don't know who to lynch.

Better if we have less suspects with more kills. Number of opportunity to lynch we get is the same isn't it?

EDIT: Shower time, battery low and TVs on. My apologies but this will be my final response for this phase. Ill see you when I wake up

[Askthepizzaguy]

Now that your defense of GH has failed, and you've grudgingly agreed he will be lynched today, Beefy:

Why, after that heroic attempt at a defense, shouldn't we lynch you immediately afterward? Desperate mafioso sometimes sacrifice one of their own to keep the other alive.

I suspect that you're GH's partner. I will be thoroughly checking the thread to see if you've ever seriously gone after him. I don't expect you to vote for him, and even if you do, know that it does not exonerate you in my eyes.

[Jolt]

I find it funny that all people GH blocked fall asleep in his cave. Is this a simple coincidence? After they are asleep, what does GH do? It's quite odd that noone stays awake to actually see if GH remains in the cave. My bet goes to GH's being scummy.

Did anyone read this? This is the proof that once the guys are asleep, his character comes out of the cave to kill someone.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I admit I did not fully consider that possibility, but I had oodles of reasons for going after GH already.

I noted you were probably innocent because of your willingness to go after him, in spite of his "invaluable" "townie" ability.

[GeneralHankerchief]

My defense is as follows.

[Yoyoma1910]

No guys, I just thought of the answer!

Don't you get it:


Pizza, who was likely innocent, was killed by the VIGILANTE!

He was killed by the sword. GH couldn't protect him because it was a protown hit!


It all makes sense now.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am innocent, and from what YLC told me in private, it was the vigilante who killed me.

But I didn't really have reasons for trusting him, and he said he did not know who the vigilante was, or that the vigilante somehow was able to contact him but he didn't know who he was.

I can verify that it was alleged I was killed by vigilante, and if I was killed by the blade (if I recall... the games are blending together now...) then it was so I think.

I still do not think GH is innocent, because the mafia would/should have killed him by now, or GH should have blocked the mafia, one night, and then repeated the next night.

He's not bad at this game, he's the freakin' master. How he would miss such an obvious strategy is beyond me.... wait! No, it's not. He could be... yes... scum!

[Yoyoma1910]

Well, they did try to kill him.

[TinCow]

No guys, I just thought of the answer!

Don't you get it:


Pizza, who was likely innocent, was killed by the VIGILANTE!

He was killed by the sword. GH couldn't protect him because it was a protown hit!


It all makes sense now.

As far as I am aware, nearly every single protection role that has ever been written for mafia games makes 'doctor' abilities work against any attacker, regardless of alignment. There is nothing whatsoever in GH's role PM that indicates he is anything other than a bland old boring combo role blocker and doctor. If we're just going to discard what we know about how roles work, when there is no evidence to the contrary, next time I fake a role PM I'll be the Magic Fairy Pixie Dust Monkey who can bestow all powers in the Known World on others, but has no idea which powers will be given, who they will be given to, and whether they will even work. When you then try to lynch me for being mafioso scum, I will claim innocence by being unable to explain my Strange But Awesome Powers.

[Yoyoma1910]

There are many variations of "doctor" roles.


It is possible that a protown role would not be able to prevent another protown role.

[TinCow]

Do you think the possibility that this is true is strong enough to overcome all of the evidence against GH?

[Yoyoma1910]

Anyway, it would really depend on the Vigilante role, and not the doctor.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Occam's Razor, please.

The simplest solution to this entire mess is right in front of your eyes. GH is mafia, and has been fortunate enough to be bestowed upon him a role with which to convince you otherwise.

[Yoyoma1910]

Occam can shove his razor up his toenail.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Do you have a better option? Forgive me, but I didn't see your suggestion that has an objectively higher chance of success, if I did I would endorse it.


You know, I may come off as an arrogant smarty-pants, (I don't mean to) but I do listen. If you guys have better leads, I will follow you / offer my support.

[Yoyoma1910]

Followers and supporters are not what is needed at this moment.


We need strong critical analysis and creative thinking.

If you're saying, "Well, this can't possibly be how it happened," then you're possibly throwing out the evidence.

If we can get a broader view, then we can come to precision from it. If we start with a small view, then we will miss.

So what? A Vigilante couldn't be able to surpass blocking abilities?
...........


So what if GH is Mafia? It's possible, yes, but who's the other one? Figure that out. That's who we need to catch. GH might seem an obvious choice, and maybe he's the Oswald. I don't know. Who's the guy on the grassy knoll?