Lack of knowledge annoyance

[Don Esteban]

It is because History/history is just a representation for a country of itself.
It is a myth, a construction of identity.

E.g.: English, you didn’t win Waterloo. A coalition under the command of an English general did. Trafalgar didn’t prevent England to speak French because the Grande Armée was yet marching to Austerlitz… And Nelson destroyed “only” half the Franco-Spanish fleet… Advantage which was lost immediately after because the storm…

And we didn't really destroy the Spanish armada, more got lucky that a strom brew up

See also:

Americans: You were not the saviours of Europe during the two world wars. Many countries were fighting way before you got involved and lost far more men. That said your help is appreciated, just stop telling us that you were the ONLY reason we one! The war did not run form 1942 - 45 but from 39 - 45 and arguably (if you are Czech) from before that when the first invasions took place.

French: You did not win the war in Algeria no matter what your government might try and tell you. They didn't choose to leave!!!

Spain: The British did not steal Gibralter, you gave it to them as one of the conditions after loosing a war. Also why is it ok for you to hold on to Ceuta and Melilla but not for the brits to hold Gibralter?


Think i'll stop now before I piss off every nationality

[scipiosgoblin]

Think i'll stop now before I piss off every nationality

ROTFLMAO. Thank you for the dose of reality check. As an American, I always have to defend every idiotic position my country takes to all of my wife's relatives and friends. While I love my country and its ideals, I don't agree with everything it does.

Of course my wife has a different trial with Americans. She is South African. Convincing some of my relatives, friends and coworkers that she didn't grow up in a mud hut surrounded by lions and spear wielding natives is difficult.

I grew up on a farm ten miles outside a town of 1500 people. She grew up in Johannesburg, population 2 million or so. It's funny what preconceptions people have about other cultures.

SG

[Brenus]

“On Egypt, I am (mostly) with Bopa. True, Egypt is geographically in Africa. To that extent Brenus is correct. But there is more to a culture than its geographical location. Ancient Egypt was not in significant contact with other African cultures AFAIK, with the important exception of Nubia and maybe Axum. Depending on the period you are thinking about, it is more culturally accurate to consider Egypt part of Mediterranian or Arab culture. So it is down to whether you think geography or culture is more important.

But however one looks at it, Bopa is not displaying an annoying lack of knowledge about Egypt. He is showing that there is more than one way of presenting and categorizing the truth. Brenus is not wrong about Egypt being in Africa, but he is wrong if he thinks that this is the only way to catagorize Egypt.”

I don’t disagree with all that.
But the subject was the lack of knowledge in history. Samara, Obeid, Ras Amra (sp?) civilisations are part of our civilisation. However, no real effort is done to highlight their geographical belonging to our European child.
I do agree that during the Middle-Ages, and the Renaissance and a huge part of the Modern Ages the world was the Mediterranean sea…
But who really clearly teach that Phoenicians, Carthaginians are in fact Africans?
That is the key of this debate, not what you or I know.

The view ours societies have (especially on Africa) would change if this was clearly explained.
Do we have to celebrate the Empire was a debate on a Radio Station there. And the commentator to carry on the civilisation duty of England ands how English built bridges, schools and railways and so on.
Now, if he would have a simple idea of what was India before, perhaps he wouldn’t dare to say things like this…
He passed on the slaughters of population and various traps and tricks… This “democratisation process” was imposed by force and blood.
And that is a clear construction of Identity, a clear interpretation of history for a building of a clear conscience… Not a word on the rebellions and unrests…
We killed them but it was for their good…

Don’t worry; I had the same for the French. We invaded Vietnam to protect the Catholic Minorities from the evil Emperor of Annam (nowadays we say minorities rights for self determination), we invaded the Congo to free the slaves (human rights protection), and we hastely democratised countries (before the English got time to do it) and killed all the tyrants in others part of Africa in order to spread the Enlightenment…
The fact that few years after priest, soldiers and private companies were ruling through the heirs of these tyrants is not really important to be mentioned…
10 Africans died for each km of rail tracks (and 1 European.)
Forced labour was enforced, with full agreement of the French government…

I know that is a digression from the original debate.
However, the refusal to give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, to recognise the geographical reality about ancient civilisations is just a part of the all process.

[Brandy Blue]

Thanks for the clarification and sorry I missed the point, Brenus.

On a related point, I view geography history with some suspicion anyway. Sometimes we Americans equate Africa with black, and claim that Egypt and Carthage were black civilizations. (I am not suggesting that you think that. This is just another historical inaccuracy that some people believe.) Now I know that ancient Egyptian art includes pictures of blacks, so I suppose some of the Egyptians may have been black, but most of them look more brown than black to me. They probably had some black blood, I suppose, especially as they were once ruled by the Nubians and traded with them constantly. But to say they were all 100% black seems a bit unfair on their Coptic descendants. Why should they not get the credit for what their ancestors did just because they are not black?

I'm happy to say that Axum, Nubia, and Congo were black kingdoms, but no one has yet shown me the evidence for the claim that Hannibal, Cleopatra, and Socrates (who wasn't even an African) were black.